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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1270985 - 02/02/03 12:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The dirty fractal edge... hehehe

We know this: Things happen.
That's one of the only things that we'll ever know for sure.
Sometimes people do things for a reason. Sometimes we can see this.
Sometimes people actions are the random result of the "divine" chaos of uncertainty.

Shit happens... only the insecure need an answer for everything.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1271019 - 02/02/03 01:02 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i dont believe things happen for a reason.

i believe in total chaos and that all responsibility lies in our hands (unfortunately)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1271084 - 02/02/03 01:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

chaos, random and chance are cop-outs.
we use these terms to describe effects where the causes and contributing factors are too difficult to determine. humans tend to be unwilling to acknowledge the limitations of their tools for operating in the physical.


grav, how and why should we take responsibility or be responsible for 'total chaos'?
was this decided by some higher power,
or was it a random issuance of responsibility, that just happened to fall in our laps?
we are just humans, it's not that big a job.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Killjoy]
    #1271092 - 02/02/03 01:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Science IS a religion.




You mean science is spirituallity, check out my "How did we create the universe?" forum!




--------------------
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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1271105 - 02/02/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Are there those here that agree with the book's definition?

If you do, does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?




Yes (it part of god's plan), why was the gun man mad? Why was killing people seem aproprite to do at that time? Did he have food on his plate this morning? Did he just get fucked by his job or girlfriend?(in no way am i saying that killing people is justifyed by food, or anger) In 2025 when we are looking back on the 21th century, (to figure it all out; why even volence exisited), we'll be witinessing why the old way wouldn't work and would only kill us in the end!

Evil is nessisary for the balance of good, if we were to look back on that incident
we would be examining why he did it, and the knowleadge we get from that episode, we'll apply to our future's to make sure it never happens agian!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1271111 - 02/02/03 01:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sometimes people do things for a reason. Sometimes we can see this.
Sometimes people actions are the random result of the "divine" chaos of uncertainty




the only uncertainty is ours.
just because the myriad of factors that go together to have an effect are often too complex to be identified, doesn't mean we should adopt that tiresome human stance of minimalizing whatever we don't understand.

'shit happens' - more minimalizing. we are unable or too lazy to realize the causes or implications of an event, so throw it away with the label of 'shit' and shut ourselves off to any further contemplation. deep.




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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1271207 - 02/02/03 02:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i think i agree with sclorch.

All i know for sure is that i see shit happen. I dont see the reasons behind it, i dont understand the cause of it, just that it is. and isnt that enuf?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1271347 - 02/02/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

chaos, random and chance are cop-outs.
how is chaos a cop-out? copping out of what?

i realize that particles follow a specific pattern, just like our brains, but i'm talking spiritually here.

to me chaos means that there is no order to things. there is no "master control".
anything that seems like a concrete and solid order is just temporary. always changing.

how and why should we take responsibility or be responsible for 'total chaos'?
was this decided by some higher power


i didnt mean we have responsibility for chaos, i meant we have sole responsibility of our lives inside this chaos. we have the power to change the meanings of our existence however we want. just because we live for an expensive car and a big house today doesn't mean we will tomorrow.

i don't believe in a higher power. but i do believe in a potential power that humanity has.

or was it a random issuance of responsibility, that just happened to fall in our laps?
we are just humans, it's not that big a job.

yes it seems random to me that we are even here at all, but i think it is beautiful to be a part of whatever chaotic creation has made us. and yes this responsibility did fall into our laps and i dont think it's taking us quite some time to catch on.


^^^^^ imo


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1272146 - 02/02/03 09:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

crispie: the only uncertainty is ours.
just because the myriad of factors that go together to have an effect are often too complex to be identified, doesn't mean we should adopt that tiresome human stance of minimalizing whatever we don't understand.


It's not minimalizing. It's acknowledging our limits and being okay with that.
But hey... go ahead and think you're just a cog in the machine... I could care less for those who refuse to take responsibility (for what they can). Go ahead and devise some sort of metaphysical construct that ties everything together... it won't be any more valid than what I'm saying. The only difference will be that I'm not running around being a self-righteous-now-it-all-because-I-have-the-"key"-to-the-universe. Which means I can go back to doing something other than looking at star charts, reinterpreting ancient texts, or praying for JHVH-1 to beam me up the next time the Hale-Bopp comet comes around.

Whatever floats your boat, man... unless it's putting holes in my ship (then I have to return fire).


--------------------
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Offlineallcaps
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1272705 - 02/03/03 05:24 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I think it all boils down to the self fulfilling prophecy. People who believe things happen for a reason subconsiously look and wait for a reason. For example, say there are 2 brothers, ages 18 and 15. They both are typical teenagers and get in their fair share of trouble. Say the 15 year old has gotten into drugs. Well one day the 18 year old gets tragically killed. As a result of that, the younger brother changes his ways and becomes a "good kid". Well if the mother is religious or believes things happen for a reason she may believe that her son's death was to save her other son. To me, it seems ridiculous to think that God would kill one person to change the attitude for another person. Yet some people will believe this. I think it helps them cope. If they can find something good that comes as a result of something bad, it helps them deal with bad times. I see it as simply an effect from a major event, not as a reason for it.


Edited by allcaps (02/03/03 05:25 AM)


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1272757 - 02/03/03 05:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Did you know that reasons are only important if you are a human?
Just let things happen. Nothing we do matters. We can do whatever we want...
We're doing it just now...  :smirk: 


--------------------
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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1272759 - 02/03/03 05:49 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i feel  chaos is a cop-out because it releases you from thinking about cause/effect.

do you think the laws of physics have correspondences on the different levels of manifestation? is there, perhaps, just one law that covers the entire spectrum?
Quote:

to me chaos means that there is no order to things. there is no "master control".




yes, this is what chaos means to me too.
Quote:

anything that seems like a concrete and solid order is just temporary. always changing


but, to me, this is change, one of the few things i am certain about.

Quote:

i don't believe in a higher power. but i do believe in a potential power that humanity has.



i only wish to discuss the point that you hold beliefs.
how have you come to hold these spiritual  beliefs? were you born with them? did you realise them chaotically? or was there a chain of occurrences over time - discussions, experiences, books, etc - that led you to this point?
do you think in 20 years time you will still hold these beliefs? after all, as you wrote, everything changes....even beliefs.
how do you think your beliefs will change? as i said above, from what you observe, experience and absorb. with this knowledge you are free to choose your direction.
do you see how your spiritual beliefs are also subject to the laws of cause and effect? where can the line be drawn?

you  predict soon we will "catch on",
if we catch on, it will no longer be chaos.

Quote:

i think it is beautiful to be a part of whatever chaotic creation has made us. and yes this responsibility did fall into our laps 



made us? for something to be made, order is required, a sequential process,  thought....mind.
yes, it is beautiful, even the reflection.
thanks grav, your post  made me think, very much appreciate it.
hope mine does likewise! :wink:
 


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1272790 - 02/03/03 06:01 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But hey... go ahead and think you're just a cog in the machine... I could care less for those who refuse to take responsibility (for what they can). Go ahead and devise some sort of metaphysical construct that ties everything together... it won't be any more valid than what I'm saying. The only difference will be that I'm not running around being a self-righteous-now-it-all-because-I-have-the-"key"-to-the-universe. Which means I can go back to doing something other than looking at star charts, reinterpreting ancient texts, or praying for JHVH-1 to beam me up the next time the Hale-Bopp comet comes around



wow sclorch, that steams! i'll be careful not to tread in it.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1273856 - 02/03/03 11:24 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

wow sclorch, that steams! i'll be careful not to tread in it.

Yeah... coming up with fantasies to make up for that ol' fear of the unknown is a great solution. Stick to it! [/sarcasm]

It really does irk me that intelligent people can have this dogmatic, undying belief that's really only there to temporarily suspend fear. If you're going to have faith in something... let it be faith in self, faith in uncertainty, faith in optimism... REAL hope.

It appears that it really is hard (for most) to conceive of a world that just happened. It's not like I was born with these non-beliefs that I have. Hell, I was raised Lutheran... they're even more conservative than Catholics. I was all about determinism... I went through the Alan Watts hoo-hah... fractals... string theory... Christ, maybe I'll take a photo of my bookshelf to show you where I've been. One day I just realized (after a good, hard trip) that I didn't need any of that. All I needed was me... there was and is no ego behind it... there was and is no dogmatic doctrine behind it... there was and is no book behind it... There was so much nothing that it became something, and that something is me.

whatever... I'm rambling...


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1273993 - 02/03/03 11:58 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i've held this sort of view for acouple years now
i dont know why i think this,  maybe i just got tired of being afraid of going to hell
but it just seems to make sense to me, and also opens up all the channels of love and open-mindedness that I couldn't possibly describe accurately here. 
if i leave all 'spiritual' rules and regulations behind, anything can happen... and i've learned from myself that it seems natural to love, whatever love is.  it just comes out and shows me new things all the time, and all i have to do is let go of any sense of order i hold to my self.
so maybe this view of mine is just something that makes me feel good? but maybe more than that. maybe feeling good like that is the meaning of my life.  not cuz i followed that meaning, but because i created it in my head out of nothing.

i knew you would split hairs about the creation thing  :tongue: 
i have no idea where we really came from, or if there was a reason we came here.
i guess the fact that we were created is all the reason I need to feel holy and divine.  i think the need for some religious hero is stemmed from fear that there is nobody's morals to follow. 

i believe in an order of creation and life - evolution,  watever.  it exists.

i do not believe in any predetermined reason or meaning for humanity other than that we were evolved over billions of years.  and when i think of nothing, blackness, emptiness... then living suddenly becomes euphoria to me and i wonder why we need a reason to live other than living.

when we "catch on" there will still be no meaning.  but we will all be doing things that make us genuinely happy and evolving our species.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1274426 - 02/03/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

coming up with fantasies to make up for that ol' fear of the unknown is a great solution
It really does irk me that intelligent people can have this dogmatic, undying belief



i assume you are talking about me, could you point out for me which part of my replies are fantasy and/or dogmatic, undying beliefs and why they are labelled such. it would be of some interest and benefit to me, thanks.
you seem to cling to your non-beliefs as dearly as some cling to their beliefs.
Quote:

All I needed was me... there was and is no ego behind it... there was and is no dogmatic doctrine behind it... there was and is no book behind it... There was so much nothing that it became something, and that something is me.




could you have come to this realisation without going through your life's experiences?
do you think, if you had never read those books and just dropped a shitload of acid (or whatever) you would have come to the same viewpoint?
are your current views 'set in concrete' or will they change, like everything else?
how can something come from nothing? it doesn't matter how much nothing you have, you can never get something from nothing, especially not a sclorch.
i hope my questions are not too irksome :grin:

 


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1274497 - 02/03/03 02:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Everything Happens for a Reason




Technically, everything does happen for a reason. The space shuttle crashed because something caused some kind of malfunction which caused it to crash/explode. This has nothing to do with determinism, or some divine plan though, its simply a karmic dance of action and reaction. I've played with the idea of this so called "plan for everything" and the more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes, that the universe is just as unpredictable as our daily lives. It is a great system (entity) made up of smaller systems (entities), which in turn break up into yet smaller entities, etc, etc... The only thing we truely have is our conciousness/spirit. In order to awaken our true consciouness we must awaken our spirit, and the two become one. This is the first level of enlightenment. Further levels involve the four stages of annihilation towards a state of true non-existence. All souls will eventually reach a state of pure enlightenment, but it requires one to first become spiritually aware, before one can start on the path of the spirit.


Edited by Remy (02/03/03 02:58 PM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1274535 - 02/03/03 02:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

thanks grav, i know i'm being picky but...
Quote:

because i created it in my head out of nothing.




has anybody here ever had a truly original thought? a thought that was created out of nothing. or are thoughts and ideas born from the co-mingling of various experiences and perceptions over the course of time?

i find it curious that you wrote - 'we were created' and 'we were evolved', yet your final sentence states we are evolving ourselves. i guess this is the responsibility we discussed previously. have we been unleashed?
also interesting is the repeated use of the passive structure as we write about human history. by using this grammatical structure there is a continual soft re-inforcing that there is a 'doer' in the equation.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Remy]
    #1274570 - 02/03/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

In order to awaken our true consciouness we must awaken our spirit,



how do we awaken our spirit? and from that point how do we proceed to awaken our true consciousness?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1274813 - 02/03/03 04:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i dont know how 'original' the thought is. maybe it's just a group of chemicals lying dormant in everyone. how do we know where our thoughts come from? i suppose we can trace it back so far but then there's no telling at a certain point. i guess the real deep thoughts go past that point.

it seems sorta like an acid trip, you can be told for hours how it feels, but you dont actually create that feeling until you experience it yourself

i had never thought of that view of 'chaos' before. i'm sure i had heard people talking about it before but it never really clicked until i just started thinking about it. it was very hard to accept for awhile... i couldn't imagine making my own terms of what i thought was right and wrong for me, and i felt a little scared not to have another soul in the world that could tell me how to live my life.

but the more i thought about it the more it became obvious to me that it was some sort of truth, and all that other spiritual dogma was revealed to me as just something i held onto for safety.

i say i created it out of nothing because nobody had given me the mental tools to think that way, and it really didn't seem to benefit me in any way at the time, in fact it scared the shit out of me.
i remember lying in my bed all day wondering what was stopping me from going on a mass murdering rampage cuz i nolonger believed in the morals handed down to me. i didn't believe in anything. i've slowly and carefully been cultivating ever since.
or something like that....

and yea, evolution doesn't stop... the age of humanity is just a split second blink in time.


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