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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/30/99
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"faith" vs. "reason"
    #2255976 - 01/20/04 02:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"One may bask at the warm fire of faith, or choose to live in the bleak uncertainty of reason, but one cannot have both."
~
(from a posthumous letter from dr. hartley m. baldwin, to his adopted daughter friday marjorie baldwin... found in heinlein's novel _friday_ )
~
~
izzat so ??????


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: gnrm23]
    #2256215 - 01/20/04 03:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Faith is comforting. Without faith, you have nothing.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: gnrm23]
    #2256394 - 01/20/04 04:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

hey we can't stay by the fire forever
it might be comforting to hold on to your beliefs
but eventually you have to face the uncertainty and chaos of the real world

will it be faith or reason that lights the way?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2256494 - 01/20/04 05:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think you can have both.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: gnrm23]
    #2256522 - 01/20/04 05:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

izzat so ??????

nope, each in its own measure


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: gnrm23]
    #2256551 - 01/20/04 05:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with Frog. I don't think you can have *blind* faith and reason in any sort of cohesive way, but that doesn't mean you can't be reasonable and believe in something at the same time.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: Frog]
    #2256615 - 01/20/04 05:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the problem is in the ambiguity of the word "faith"

you could have faith in reason, faith in democracy
faith in your senses, or faith (trust) in a loved one

however, that isn't the same as blind faith, or faith in perfection, or absolutes
this kind of faith serves to confirm and strengthen your beliefs
it's comforting because it has the Answers, or so you think

but it can't be used to light the way in a world of uncertainty
or you'll end up with a model of the universe that is perfect in every way
but woefully inaccurate (see Aristotle's cosmology, which was the basis for Christian cosmology)

the real world is uncertain and chaotic


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2256619 - 01/20/04 05:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

those who have faith must examine it in the light of reason, and see if it can hold up to their own honest scrutiny. Alot of times the term faith is used to mean the intentional ignoring of unanswerable questions or irrefutable arguments.
when i was in church and sunday school it was always used in this contextt
"but if god is truly good, how can evil exist unless he wills it so? and if he wills it so, is he truly good? and if he doesnt will it so, how can he be omnipotent?" well jimmy, you just have to have faith.

if that is the true meaning of faith for you, than it really just means self denial and self imposed ignorance, which is no good
there is 'real faith' though, which comes from a genuine intuition or sensation that goes beyond 'reason' and its ability to affirm or refute.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: gnrm23]
    #2256733 - 01/20/04 06:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The two are diametrically opposed.  Someone who has faith in an idea needs not reason or proof, and verse vica.

My philosophy:

Keep the faith, just not from other Christians. :lol:  Reminds me of a bible school song

Well I'm a C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n!
(yee-haw)
And I'm a C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n!
(wa-hoo!)
Yes I'm a C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n!
C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n!
C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n!

:lol:


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: Frog]
    #2256788 - 01/20/04 06:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
I think you can have both.



Do you have faith that you can have both, or do you have a reason for believing you can? :wink:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2256921 - 01/20/04 07:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD:the problem is in the ambiguity of the word "faith"

you could have faith in reason, faith in democracy
faith in your senses, or faith (trust) in a loved one

however, that isn't the same as blind faith, or faith in perfection, or absolutes
this kind of faith serves to confirm and strengthen your beliefs
it's comforting because it has the Answers, or so you think

but it can't be used to light the way in a world of uncertainty
or you'll end up with a model of the universe that is perfect in every way
but woefully inaccurate (see Aristotle's cosmology, which was the basis for Christian cosmology)

the real world is uncertain and chaotic




I can have faith in my beliefs, as to God, karma, etc., and still use reason as to those beliefs.

Quote:

silversoulDo you have faith that you can have both, or do you have a reason for believing you can?




I don't think either is inconsistent with the other. Yes, the world may "appear" to be chaotic.

But I have a general understanding of karma, and I have a belief in and understanding of, and faith in, God. This would provide the basis for the reasoning I use to understand the events that take place in the world and they will end up making sense to me, showing me that the world is not such a chaotic place after all.

I'm not going to sit by a warm fire and be comfortable with my beliefs. I'm also not going to be living with the bleak uncertainty of reason.

I'm going to be comfortable with my beliefs, and use those beliefs to help me understand the world, and people, and events. And, of course, take action based on my reasoning.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: gnrm23]
    #2258839 - 01/21/04 04:18 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Myself, I can enjoy sitting by a warm fire knowing that it will go out eventually or I will once again have to go into the cold night. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: gnrm23]
    #2258867 - 01/21/04 04:36 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quantum Physics is proof enough for me that god exists, REASON tells me he is not a he or even an IT that I can define but a evolutionary force in the universe.

Faith and reason

Scince and religon

together, without conflict, this is my life

as einstiend said

"religon without science is blind, science without religon is lame"


--------------------


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: "faith" vs. "reason" [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2258876 - 01/21/04 04:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I agree with Frog. I don't think you can have *blind* faith and reason in any sort of cohesive way, but that doesn't mean you can't be reasonable and believe in something at the same time.





:thumbup:
!YES! :grin:


--------------------


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