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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists...
    #2119927 - 11/18/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yea, I know these are different categories, but just wondering how u find anything positive in life. I realize this is kinda vague, but I'm hoping u understand what I mean. If there's no God, and/or everything is determined and there's no free will, and life is a simple struggle for survival with tit bits of happiness thrown in here and there and it's all about avoiding pain, and if u ascribe to some/all of these ideas, how do u find meaning/happiness in life ? what keeps u going ?


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: lucid]
    #2119941 - 11/18/03 03:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
Yea, I know these are different categories, but just wondering how u find anything positive in life.



How can you not find anything positive in life? There is beauty everywhere, there is mystery everywhere, there is food, there is love, there is the sun to warm you, nights to contemplate the stars, there are children to raise, lessons to learn, lessons to teach, sailing on the ocean or a mountain lake, hiking in the wilderness, laughter, discussions, drama, etc. etc., etc..


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: Evolving]
    #2119975 - 11/18/03 03:37 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

lucid said:
Yea, I know these are different categories, but just wondering how u find anything positive in life.



How can you not find anything positive in life? There is beauty everywhere, there is mystery everywhere, there is food, there is love, there is the sun to warm you, nights to contemplate the stars, there are children to raise, lessons to learn, lessons to teach, sailing on the ocean or a mountain lake, hiking in the wilderness, laughter, discussions, drama, etc. etc., etc..




I wasn't talking about me, the question was directed towards
reductionists etc...
I mean if one's life philosophy is to explain everything away, how
do they manage to sense the magic in life.
It was a question directed to people, not my personal philosophy...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: lucid]
    #2119991 - 11/18/03 03:41 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I can be described as agnostic and skeptical (not determinist though).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: Evolving]
    #2120007 - 11/18/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

yeah, determinism is almost a polar opposite from true skepticism and agnosticism.

determinism is a personal enemy of mine, and I find it in both religion and science. That doesn't mean that religion and science are necesarily deterministic, though.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2120479 - 11/18/03 06:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Honestly, I don't know how you can be happy as a determinist.

Also, I don't know how a skeptic or agnostic would be any LESS happy than anyone else. I'm damn happy. Whatever...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: Sclorch]
    #2120644 - 11/18/03 07:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

heh, never even heard the term determinist. shows how naive I am :smile:

looking in my dicotionary, it says determinism is a doctrine that says all events, including human choices and decisions, have sufficient causes?

my question is how does that mean a person can't find the magic in life.  i don't fit this description, and this point of view is just that, a point of view.

guess what I'm trying to say is that there are some days that I feel this way, but there are other days where I do not.  everything changes, including my point of view, it's all jsut judgements.  no?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: lucid]
    #2120653 - 11/18/03 07:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

> but just wondering how u find anything positive in life.

What Evolving said.... and much more.....

> .... and it's all about avoiding pain,

It's not all about avoiding pain! It's all about being happy!

> I mean if one's life philosophy is to explain everything away, how
do they manage to sense the magic in life.

I think it's not magic if everything can be explained with god, it's just simple... I think determinism is magic!

> Honestly, I don't know how you can be happy as a determinist.

As a determinist I have no problem in knowing why I am happy.....

PS: I'm skeptic in science and an atheist and determinist in philosophy.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: lucid]
    #2120888 - 11/18/03 09:14 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

As a determinist, I find positivity everywhere, seeing how things are unfolding in ways that we never could have brought on by some kind of mystical "free-will," whatever that means.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: Strumpling]
    #2120981 - 11/18/03 10:10 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

see that's what I mean, perspective!!! :smile: 


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/11/03
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: kaiowas]
    #2121285 - 11/19/03 12:21 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm gonna be completely honest with you. There is a good chance that I would probably be happier than I am right now if I believed in a god, or an afterlife, or whatever. But the truth is that I can't make myself believe in these things because I have not seen any evidence of them. It's nice to have something to believe in, but I can't really believe in someting just to make me happy if, fundamentally, I don't think it's true.

PS: If you have to make up something like a god or an afterlife to make you happy, than you are obviously missing out on the things in life that really do make you happy. These things include music, literature, the simpsons, love, food, drugs, and most importantly - rational thinking!


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: lucid]
    #2121295 - 11/19/03 12:25 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

It's not all about avoiding pain, I'm not sure where you came up with that.

It's also about finding happiness. Finding things in life to enjoy, things that make you happy.

I don't understand how not believing in illogical things would prevent you from enjoying life. Perhaps you could explain this to me further.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: lucid]
    #2121300 - 11/19/03 12:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Oh yeah, and with determinism, you've gotta be happy...

What choice do you have?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: Phluck]
    #2121475 - 11/19/03 01:47 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I see your point. Much thanks to everyone for their feedback :sun:
I've just been brought up in a religious environment and thinking
that someone (i.e. God) has "lovingly" created this beautiful world
for our enjoyment seems like a wonderful idea - analytically, I'd
say that it's reinforment of the ego and feeling loved by some
entity (however abstract). I guess for those who havn't been
brought up in this environment, or those who've managed to break
free, the need for a loving creator isn't necessarry in order
to appreciate things. I wish I could bring myself to this state
of mind. Thanks again to everyone who responded, more feedback
is welcome so that I can better understand how others manage
to find their peace in the world. Thanks :sun: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Calling all Skeptics, Agnostics, Determinists... [Re: lucid]
    #2121666 - 11/19/03 03:11 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I dont believe in free will. I do believe in god. i would say that i chose to based on my experiences, and evidence, but that isn't true. I believe at this moment because i must, tomorrow, maybe i wont. I question everything and try to reserve opinion or belief until i simply cannot help but give in and take a side. Whatever side i fall on will be the side i had to fall on. Actually now i am trying to release all my opinions and beliefs, but with out ego death that is exceedingly difficult if not impossible. And if that happens it will be because it had to. I have had profound experiences, many that are associated with what happens when the ego is dies, but that has so far eluded me i think/ I am a skeptic in the true sense of the word. Not in the sense it is usually used. If you flat out deny the possibility of something then you are not a skeptic, because you firmly believe in the non existance of whatever it is. Niether athiests nor those who believe in god are skeptics in regards to that topic, the skeptic is the agnostic. Anyways...am i happy? Yes. I dont believe in freewill but i do believe that all this is for a reason, and that ultimately it is good. I do believe that it is possible to free yourself from all suffering, but i also believe that if and when this occurs it will be because it had to occur. I take comfort in these beliefs that i can't help but have, because i must take comfort in them. Whether every question will be answered, or if there are no answers doesnt really matter, it is all so awesome either way, and i have no choice at this moment but to see it that way. Accident or design, makes no difference, niether would diminish the majesty of it. I dont believe in good or evil, only what is and what isn't. My whole life i've somehow been lucky enough to seemingly be less affected by life then those around me, except for one brief period of my life just before i started meditating and had been smoking bud regularly (bud and i dont mix well), since then the degree to which i am unaffected by life has steadily increased, the only thing that really troubles me is my inability to fully let go. My own weakness is what i fear, because i must, but i can take comfort in the fact (it is for me atleast) that it is all as it should be, and it just is. I dont believe i've found any meaning in life, but i believe that the meaning in life has found me, or atleast its knocking on the door. Now if i'd only open it. In the end i will do only what i must, and whatever happens... happens. As i have stated in other posts, it is the question that drives me, it is the question that must drive me.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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