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Offlineekomstop
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Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT)
    #2404069 - 03/04/04 09:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I am not sure if this topic might be better suited for the Science and Tech or ODD forums, but I am hoping there might be a bit more interest regarding some of this stuff in S&P.

I have been very interested in most psychedelics for a few years now, and have resently been lucky enough to experiment on a more personal level with N,N DMT.  During the years anticipating my first encounter with DMT, I did alot of reading regarding its effects, and of course its places in nature and in human beings.  There was and still is something about this chemical that seems to just demand I keep learning and exploring with it as thoroughly as possible.

Natural DMT production and its role in normal everyday metabolism in human, animal, and plant life seems to be a very debatable topic, but I think it should be very worthy of discussion.  I am not interested in starting a heated argument of whether DMT occurs naturally in the human body, or not.  As far my present thoughts go from reading, it has been found in the human body, aswell as in various animals, and in many plant species.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but to take a quote from "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" by Dr. Rick Strassman;  "Indeed, it is getting to the point where one should report where DMT is NOT found, rather than where it is"  ~Alexander Shulgin

To quote again from Strassmans book.. "If So, So What?" 

There are a number of active compounds in our bodies, all that seem to play different roles in the ways in which our minds/bodies function and how we perceive our present reality in our day to day lives.  Many of you may already be aware, but it is probably worth mentioning that DMT is a form of a very simple compound called a Tryptamine.  Serotonin is also a tryptamine.  This is very interesting to me, mainly because even if DMT does not play a major role in certain functions in the human body, one of its cousins, Serotonin, is one of the, if not the most active tryptamine occuring in human metabolism. Serotonin and its derivatives contribute to regulating ones hunger, mood, breathing, sleep, confidence, perspective, ect, ect, ect.  On a side note, it has also been said that DMT may play a major role in dreaming, but I have not been able to find much information to back this up.

Another very closely related couple of tryptamines I am sure many of you are familliar with, are psilocybin and psilocin.  Psilocybin's phosphorus group is removed upon ingestion, and is converted to psilocin in the body.  Psilocin has been reffered to as "orally active DMT" as it differers from DMT by only one oxygen atom.  The molecular differences between serotonin and DMT are extremely small.  Worth noting I think.

The fact that one of the bodies most important compounds (serotonin) seems to be directly related to the most powerful known psychedelic on the planet, really makes me wonder.  If these natural endogenous chemicals are really directly contributing to how we shape and perceive our reality, maybe we could then take that thought to another level, and observe how they might affect ones perception in the event of a chemical imbalance.  ie. When one compound completely overpowers the other.

Fortunately, modern chemistry has made this sort of thing quite simple to accomplish for the average seeker, as one can quite effectively throw their serotonin release mechanisms on overdrive with MDMA.  Now this is just my own personal take on this experience, so far.  MDMA to me, seems to allow me to feel a bit more connected to this plane of existance than any other substance induced state of mind (including sobriety, of course).  Whatever feelings or emotions I happen to be feeling at that time will usually be magnified quite a bit.  My focus is increased, and I generally feel very grounded and happy to be a part of this place.  Naturally, I guess this reality seems to be the best place for that particular experience.  Of course there can be exceptions to this feeling of connectedness, for example, reported experiences of injesting too much of MDMA, seem to describe effects similar to that of delyrium, or the feeling of not being a part of this reality.  This may be debatable aswell, but I would assume this is probably not because there is too much serotonin for the brain to handle, but because these doses are or are very close to a toxic dose of MDMA.

This might be an incorrect stance to be taking, but for speculation, I am going to consider DMT as serotonin's oposite, in a perspective sense.  ie.  Assuming Serotonin as being a tryptamine able to anchor one?s perception to this world, while DMT, could be a tryptamine able to give a mind front row seats to perceive some aspect of the "other" world or the imaginative (type) world.  Despite their close relation in molecular structure, I found DMT's effects to be considerably different to the state of mind induced by the flood of serotonin that MDMA releases.  I am sure atleast a few others could agree with that.  Lots of Serotonin for me = a heavy anchor to this "Time/Space".  DMT on the other hand, seems to bring a deeper part of the imagination into play.  Not to say the imagination doesn't play a part in the MDMA experience, let alone the sober experience, but, so far it seems possible to me that DMT may essentially be some kind of a doorway into the depths, extended further and more directly into the chaos (for lack of better word) within ones imagination. (perhaps even beyond that?)  However, I have not and am not sure I will ever recognize something from this experience to actually be a part of myself. To quote Terence Mckenna; "The DMT experience is that which one cannot possibly imagine.." ? ?You will see things to the likes of which you have never seen before, nor in all probability, will ever see again..that?s how BIG this thing IS!? I must say, so far I see no reason whatsoever to disagree with these quotes!!!!!!!!!!!!  Who knows, maybe the DMT experience really is completely 'seperate' as Mckenna believed, though, I am not trying to take either stance, I am just making an attempt to consider all opinions.

While experiencing "that which one cannot possibly imagine"  I can not ignore the fact that there is definitely some kind of interaction between myself and whatever it is that is presented before me.  There is usually a distinct feeling of not being alone.  Strangely enough, this particular phenomenon hasn?t really seemed to be accompanied by much if any raw emotion on my part (fear/love). It seems possible that these emotions could have been present, perhaps from a distance, or maybe they had just gone un-noticed because of the sudden increase in feelings of curiosity, confusion and amazement.  Has anyone else noticed a lack of basic emotion during a DMT flash?  Or perhaps instead the oposite of this?

During the later stages of the experience when things begin to calm down is when I seem more able to 'play' with my immediate surroundings (Hallucinations).  During the peak, atleast with my limited experience, things are just too weird to even TRY and really influence what is happening.  During that time, I can think, relatively normaly as I am right now, but of course, coming up, my throughts are suddenly shifted into ?WHOA!? Mode while desperately trying to pay attention to everything thats going on in this space that has somehow replaced my original environment.  "How can this possibly be happening!??!??!? What am I supposed to be thinking about all this?"  Or something similar would be my thoughts through the duration of the peak.  Maybe this will change in the future with experience.  Though, getting back to the feeling of interacting with these "hallucinations" as the experience begins to calm down.  While gazing at all the color, the movement, the patterns, I would sort of "concentrate" on a part of it, I would even go as far as saying "shooting" thoughts (or something) at it and it would react one way or another to my acknowledging it.  It would "bend" or make an obvious change in what it was doing, and I will have the distinct feeling I am what caused this change to occur.  This almost felt like 'creating' a ripple in the water, or mentally 'poking' the surface of my imaginative visions.

With a bit of thought afterwards, I have been thinking maybe these hallucinations are not really 'hallucinations' at all, in some sense.  Try to bare with me with this statement for a moment.  It seems possible that what this chemical is allowing me to see/interact with might essentially be some aspect of my own REAL imagination, in ?real time? detail.  A majority of the experience, especially in regards to the visuals, seem to have a ?physical-like? quality to them.  I would imagine the imagination in a way could be some sort of ongoing process, almost like breathing, semi-automatic to an extent, like the waves and current flowing in a large body of water, sometimes the waves are big, sometimes they are small, but the movement is constant to some degree.  During the early stages of comming down, the shapes, colour and movement still seem to be too much for me to grasp even enough to bring back a small sample to display for someone else, say, in a painting, or something.  Maybe someone else could do this, but it certainly doesnt seem like something I could do at this time, thats for sure.  I guess, maybe that really is just how complex and vast the imagination is, or whatever it happens to be that DMT allows us to perceive.  I mean, I have always imagined the imagination to be relatively massive, but this experience seems to back that up quite a bit.  I feel comparable to a small fish within an imagination the size of an ocean. This may be an arrogant thing to assume, but I really think this sort of analogy is worthy of consideration!!   

It seems possible to me that most, if not all psychedelics may be opening us up to the same sort of 'thing'.  I mean, not just a display of "random" hallucinations caused by your brain activity and such, but maybe, a systematic type area of "energy" created and in use by the active mind/imagination.  The experience does feel about as chaotic as it can get, however.  But then again, if the imagination is indeed large and active like an ocean, some degree of chaotic behavior would seem practically inevitable. I am not sure what to beleive..  But perhaps these 'psychedelic' compounds are all in a way taking our minds for a swim in different areas of the same ocean, whether it be Cannabis, Psilocybin, LSD, I'm sure even Yoga and certain types of meditation could provide examples of extended use of the imagination during practice. 

Again, it's very interesting to me that one of the simplest derivatives of tryptamine, seems to be the most "direct" method of bringing yourself into this place.  Not to mention it occurs in normal human metabolism aswell as it's being prevalent in the animal and plant kingdoms.  Anyone willing to take a stab at what exactly it is doing here?

I guess my point of this post is to try and get some ideas bouncing around, in an attempt to learn more. If anyone can debunk or even support or add onto anything I have said, please go nuts. Again I am not interested in getting involved in a heated discussion full of flaming and such, I would just like to hear others' thoughts on this compound and/or any kind of related information. It just seems possible to me that perhaps DMT plays a bigger role in the game of life than we may realize. Maybe in time some sort of conclusion could be made. 

Any thoughts/comments?  Questions? Answers?  :smile:



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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2404658 - 03/04/04 11:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I wanna begin by saying that i have never taken DMT before. I have however taken DXM, LSD, psylocybin, marijuana, salvia, alcohol... with that said. i can start to tell you what i think about what you have talked about.

I didnt read all of Aldous Huxley's "The Doors Of Perception", but i did get to read enough to get a good idea of what he was talking about. In his book he mentioned what he thought were "channels" or something to the effect of tuners of reality.

When i first tried psychadelic mushrooms, i had a great experience. I first started feeling more energetic, more aware. I remember walking outside and I started talking to this cat... not with words, but more like with just an understanding. My brain seemed to understand the real basic communication, and it was weird... I couldnt mention how it was... the communication. Whether it was the drug or not, it was very real.

It got me thinking about something... Damn, how much the brain resembles a radio! Percieving this vast whatever you want to call it, information, existence, reality. I started thinking about the whole perception thing, how maybe who i am... is just like my own kind of radio. Tuning into this certain channel, which i call my perception. When i tweak it with different things or substances, i start to see it, percieve it in a different way. Or maybe a new song comes through my antennea!

Maybe DMT connects you to that vast area of chaos which your organized biological organism tries to filter out... to a produceable, reducable, independent experience which we individually call our perception.

Or maybe dmt is just another tweaker... bringing you down to a different frequency, a differrent array of data which streams through your observational window... Your perception of the given experience...

How we get to percieve such a notion of independent experience is beyond me. For before this i was just seperated dna strands within 2 individuals. A soul? Who knows. But im going to bet this brain we have is the tuner to our experience. How "we" come about at all is beyond my grasp of understanding.


--------------------
What?


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2404964 - 03/05/04 01:04 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Again, it's very interesting to me that one of the simplest derivatives of tryptamine, seems to be the most "direct" method of bringing yourself into this place. Not to mention it occurs in normal human metabolism aswell as it's being prevalent in the animal and plant kingdoms. Anyone willing to take a stab at what exactly it is doing here?




That was a great post!!! 

I havent tried DMT, but I've read alot about it.  Here are my thoughts:

I think DMT is "here" because it aids thought.  Our brains use tryptamines and other psychoactive molecules like food, eating them up to build new kinds of thoughts.  Our brains may have evolved, partially, for this activity.

One way to look at DMT, psilocybin, and other psychedelics being in plants/fungus is that they are just here randomly.  They are simply molecules that serve some mundane purpose in their hosts.  They are not inherently special molecules.  We make them special, because our minds have evolved to use them (psilocin), and therefore anything like them.  As a branch is just a branch, not a weapon, until it is used as a weapon.

Leary said LSD is a "new way to think".  Humanity continues to discover new psychoactive molecules.  These will help us build new thoughts, new ideas, better art, new technologies, etc.  DMT is probably essential in dreaming, and playing a role in forming creative/religious thoughts, hanging around our brains in minute quantities (just enough to have an impact). :3rd_eye:


my two cents :sun:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2405554 - 03/05/04 03:41 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'll be checking this out later. Too stoned...


--------------------
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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2406125 - 03/07/04 03:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Man... this further peaks my interest in DMT. Great post!
I NEED to get my hands on some of this stuff, and experiment for myself......


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2410077 - 03/09/04 06:52 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Gotta keep this towards the top... :wink:

I haven't tried it yet, but I believe I'll be getting some sometime soon... I really look forward to it. :grin:

I haven't read much yet on it and haven't experienced it, but it definitely intrigues me and I think there is definitely something extremely unique and meaningful to it...

Hehe, I really want to contribute more but I don't have anything to contribute... damn it! But I should be getting it soon... so I be back... :lol:
Peace.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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Loving every breath of you

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2413883 - 03/10/04 08:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Whatever is a hallucination anyway? What happens in my mind is also part of "that which is".

It seems like DMT is the key to a space that is of utmost importance to all living things. A somewhat stable space, perhaps almost as stable as the material world which we "dream" together.

I look upon the human brain as a reality-filter. It gives a context from which to measure reality. There should be no deep reason to think that DMT-induced reality is any less real than the ordinary world.

"...and then it was like I was pushed from behind and I fell through the chrysanthemum into another place that didn't seem like a state of mind, it seemed like another place."
-Terrence McKenna


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2415974 - 03/10/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, Visionaire, that's the way I feel as well.

ekomstop, your conclusion is interesting, but I don't share it. IMHO, DMT and other psychedelics give access to a reality that is more 'objective' and shared than just everyone's individual imagination. It's not stupid to think otherwise, however; Benny Shanon (quite strangely) reaches the same conclusion as yours in 'The Antipodes of the Mind', his comprehensive work on the effects of ayahuasca (get it!!).

But to me, 'imagination' just doesn't suffice to describe or explain the effects of psychedelics. Personally, I've only taken ayahuasca a few times, and never had pure DMT. I've never been 'baffled beyond words'. What puzzles me, however, is that people can have shared hallucinations, for instance, or that different people describe the same places and events while being on similar substances. Jung's universal archetypes, also, tend to make me think that humanity shares more than just the material world. If it was all just individual imagination, how would you explain the stunning similarities? Imagination being so wild and varied, how would you explain that many people have seen apparently very similar 'machine elves' or other non-material entities?

Just my 2 cents, bye.


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Offlineanarchyhollow
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2416166 - 03/10/04 07:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I do have the pleasure to be able to access DMT when wanted...so here's my input. DMT is a gateway to a far more advanced reality, that i believe humanity one day will inevitably step into as a whole. When i first smoked DMT, i was completely torn away from this reality, shifted into a more active reality, in which somebody/something controlled everything, and wanted me to take a look. I've had similar hallucinations (if that's what you wanna call it), in which i projected my mind into it, and in return got something else that i couldn't even decipher.

I also think Aldous had a great point when he talked about Jungs universal archetypes, and them being a part of the whole universe. I believe that DMT brings everyone to this same alternate reality, and possibly these 'elves' or beings control or inhabit it. I've done DMT say 10-15 times, and still feel that i haven't even glimpsed into it enough to make any conclusions. Actually, i don't believe that we will ever come to a conclusion with DMT because it is that vast...it is the most intriuging (sp?) thing i've ever done.

I've been thinking lately that the lady a lot of people see on salvia (i seen her on shrooms + salvia), is some sort of really smart being that can teach us something. I've also been contemplating doing salvia + DMT and try to observe these beings. I don't believe i'm quite ready for this experience, as either of them is intense enough alone, but as time comes, maybe i will look further into this.

I'm gonna keep thinking about everything i've read in this topic, and wrote...and i'll get back to ya :laugh: Peace


--------------------
See, the shrooms explore me. They riddle my mind, they teach me the eternal with direct experience. My soul is one with existance.


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: anarchyhollow]
    #2416457 - 03/10/04 08:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)



Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:56 AM)


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Invisibleblink
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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: Aldous]
    #2416971 - 03/10/04 11:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I read it and I have to say that I agree with the tuner analogy, the mind being a radio.

Also with what the visionaire said about the dreamscape, it is quite unlike anything we experience in a mundane daily life in that it is not static, but it is consistent in it's perspective.

aldous, don't even get me started on Jung's collective unconsciousness. :smirk:

We are choosing what we tune into and what we don't feel as relevent. the only thing that is consistent is emotion in that it's always there to a degree.  To quote Bill Hicks, "Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather"


If you don't like the radio analogy (cause analogies and comparisons are all you can talk in when the experience is intangible) then think of a keyboard,computer and a monitor.

keyboard=input
computer=brain
monitor=perception

change the input on the keyboard and you get a different image on the keyboard.  It makes sense that we are shocked by our "GUI" reality after all we knew was DOS (or for that matter one or two keys on the keyboard).  We choose what keys are pushed as we choose how we life, what and if we ingest in terms of psychedelia (new keys).  The best part is that all 3 components are really one in the same, the organic supercomputer :grin:

I could probably come up something more concise if I had the imagination to do it with right now :grin: :3rd_eye: :yawn:


--------------------


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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: blink]
    #2417684 - 03/11/04 03:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, really interesting thoughts here :smile: 

I'd just like to say that alot of what I wrote in the original post is just speculation and isn't nessesarily what I believe. I am still in the process of trying to figure out what to believe :smile:  I guess I could say I made an attempt at bringing a handful of thought to the table to help spark some interest, but even moreso to see what kind of thoughts and ideas others might be willing to contribute. I must say I really enjoyed reading everyones comments and I thank you for your thoughts :smile:  I'm sure there would naturally be many different posibilities and opinions when dealing with this sort of thing, but I like to try and consider all possible angles thoroughly before assuming one might be more valid than another.  Though, I have heard and thought about the brain-radio analogy, and have found myself considering that idea as a bit more of a probability in some sense, atleast to some degree.  I see no real reason to argue against it, but of course I'm all ears for any thoughts that might state otherwise.

I gotta cut this sort for now..early morning followed by a long day tomorrow.  P.S. Thank you for reccomending that book Aldous, I am definitely going to check it out!  :grin:


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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: ekomstop]
    #2418734 - 03/11/04 12:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Before you go, I'd like to offer an analogy that demonstrates the possibility of an "independent" DMT-accessed universe:

Imagine in a hundred years we had powerful computers that could simulate artificial intelligence.  These AI beings live in virtual worlds.  Meanwhile, humans continue using the internet and playing games and conducting business with computers. 

Some inspired programmer decides to give the AI access to the human-based internet.  Whenever the AI enters a certain portal, it is given 15 minutes restricted access to the internet.  What the AI finds there is mind-boggling, not fully understandable, but somehow familiar and worth exploring.  Sometimes mysterious powerful beings (humans) take an interest in the AI's presence and will play with it, surge it with artificial emotions, or if the human is in a bad mood, torment it like a rat in a cage.

Now if we are beings like AI, in a constrained universe, then DMT might be that "portal" that allows us to communicate with the "greater reality" that lies beyond this (if there is one). 

Just a thought! 

:sun:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Re: Investigating Tryptamines Inside Out (DMT) [Re: pattern]
    #2421900 - 03/12/04 03:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pattern said:
Now if we are beings like AI, in a constrained universe, then DMT might be that "portal" that allows us to communicate with the "greater reality" that lies beyond this (if there is one). 





I really like your analogy aswell, man :smile:

Sounds almost like one could say a DMT exprience might in a way be like "hacking into the matrix"..to put it bluntly.  :evil:

:smile:


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