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DMT - Any theories?
    #724144 -

Anyone got any theories as to why DMT should exist in so many places in nature (when it appears to serve no obvious purpose to any living organism), and why one of it's main effects is to contact human beings with what they consider to be aliens?

Is it just coincidence?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #724779 -

I doubt very highly that it is just coincidence.

Dr. Rick Strassmen (I probably got his name wrong) theorizes that DMT is the "spirit molecule." I forget if it was proven that it is released when we die, or if that was part of the theory, but he thinks that DMT is responsible for transporting our consciousness from this life to the next. Makes sense to me.


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:tongue:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #724794 -

I have read that DMT starts the brains journey, and also ends it......I don't know if that is true or not, but i do feel DMT is here for us to use it..........check out some Terrance McKenna, he is all bout DMT and has some crazy, but interesting, theories
Peace, Trev


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #725513 -

why one of it's main effects is to contact human beings with what they consider to be aliens

If you don't have any PERSONAL alien experiences via DMT, then should you make such a bold loaded question?

Does no one here know what an archetype is?

Is it a coincidence that the number of (I'll give you this: reported) "alien experiences" has increased so much since the "War of the Worlds" radio phenomenon?

COMPREHEND THIS: These are only questions... NOT statements.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #725729 -

Is it a coincidence that the number of (I'll give you this: reported) "alien experiences" has increased so much since the "War of the Worlds" radio phenomenon?

Aliens may be fact or fiction, but reports of them started a good deal of CENTURIES before that broadcast. Just some food for thought, friend


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #725816 -

And now to something completely different.

"There is another metaphor. One must balance these explanations. Now I shall sound as if I didn't think the mushroom is an extraterrestrial. It may instead be what I've recently come to suspect - that the human soul is so alienated from us in our present culture that we treat it as an extraterrestrial. (...) Perhaps the flying saucer or UFO is the central motif to be understood in order to get a handle on reality here and now. We are alienated, so alienated that the self must disguise itself as an extraterrestrial in order not to alarm us with the truly bizarre dimensions that it encompasses. When we can love the alien, then we will have begun to heal the psychic discontinuity that has plagued us since at least the sixteenth century, possibly earlier. To us the most alien thing in the cosmos is the human soul."
- Terence McKenna, "Tryptamine Hallucinogens and Consciousness"

When I first read that, it blew my mind. Not so much for what is said, which is nothing new, nor anything very interesting, but because of the guy who actually said it. It simply blows my mind that someone who believed in aliens, who considered the mushroom itself an alien lifeform, someone who used DMT to communicate with strange and very alien machine elves, that someone like this was apparently able to, quite simply and calmly, put forward a perspective like the one above. That speaks of an radical open-mindedness that is very seldom to be found among humans.

So I'll raise my glass here... three cheers to the machine elves!

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Nomad]
    #726025 -

Terrance rules!.....


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #726048 -

Well i've had countless alien experiences on mushrooms which Strassman and Mckenna both consider "orally active DMT" and which would bond to the same receptors in the brain due to it's chemical structure so it does interest me from that point of view.

Before they were called aliens they were called spirits, angels, gods and demons. Nothings changed since the war of the worlds except the name we give them.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #726164 -

shro: Aliens may be fact or fiction, but reports of them started a good deal of CENTURIES before that broadcast. Just some food for thought, friend

Thanks ol' pal, but reports DID NOT start CENTURIES before anything. They're a recent phenomenon. Although there have been numerous jackasses (yeah that was ad hominem... but they deserve it) who have tried to read aliens INTO ancient texts and paintings, there is nothing concrete ANYWHERE that says gray skin/disproportionately large heads/black eyes/small stature/anal probes/implantations/telepathic communication/you-name-it. Don't get too hung up on your own belief systems to look at things objectively.

Alex: Before they were called aliens they were called spirits, angels, gods and demons. Nothings changed since the war of the worlds except the name we give them.

I like how (close-minded) people reinterpret things to better cohere to their belief system, thus, satisfying their egos. You guys would jump all over a "Christian" who states something like "when the Bible says that God created the universe in 7 days, it means 7 God days. So the Big Bang theory wouldn't disprove anything." Now, why should there be a double standard when it comes to "alien sightings/experiences"?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #726333 -

Sclorch, there is a lot of opinion in all posts on aliens..so let me ask you a few things about yours...

Thanks ol' pal, but reports DID NOT start CENTURIES before anything. They're a recent phenomenon. Although there have been numerous jackasses (yeah that was ad hominem... but they deserve it) who have tried to read aliens INTO ancient texts and paintings, there is nothing concrete ANYWHERE that says gray skin/disproportionately large heads/black eyes/small stature/anal probes/implantations/telepathic communication/you-name-it. Don't get too hung up on your own belief systems to look at things objectively.

Define what a jackass is?
Define what is concrete evidence is?
Define objectivity?
Define Alien?
All these things are open to interpretation and everyone has, at least, slightly different believes on them...that is what an opinion is.

I think you are only as "hung up" on your beliefs as I am on mine .

People have been reporting the same type of phenomenon for centuries, IMO they are as concrete as they ever were (for better or worse).

Also, please do not assume that just because someone does not see it your way that they are not being objective, I don't assume that of you .


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #727346 -

Nothing to do with seven god days, it's undisputed fact that primitive peoples referred to the mushrooms as gods and said they encountered spirits, angels, the sacred ancestors on mushrooms.

And your argument doesn't work anyway, you are talking about people who claim to have seen aliens without being on mushrooms, I am talking about people being on mushrooms encountering entities, which they have done for thousands of years.

Incidentally, I've never believed in reports of aliens. How come I saw them?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #727680 -

Know this: I really despise giving vocabulary lessons. My definitions come straight outta Webster's.

Shroomalicious: Define what a jackass is?
A fool.


Define what is concrete evidence is?
Something that holds water... I know you know what I mean. Don't play games.


Define objectivity?
Well, I never used the word "objectivity"... you have a slight reading comprehension problem. I said objectively. If you want to go full-scale dialectic on this one... I won't bother. It's a waste of my time... I've posted my thoughts on being objective way too many times only to be ignored. But here's the dictionary definition:
objective(ly)- belonging to the sensible world and being observable or verifiable esp. by scientific methods.
Now, you'll probably try to jump all over me for those last two words.

Define Alien?
Not of this world... i.e. from "outer space", another galaxy, another universe, another time, another dimension, another "vibration", another you-fill-in-the-blank.

All these things are open to interpretation and everyone has, at least, slightly different believes on them...that is what an opinion is.
I have no beliefs on the matter. I only have thoughts.

I think you are only as "hung up" on your beliefs as I am on mine.
Is this some sort of ruse?

People have been reporting the same type of phenomenon for centuries, IMO they are as concrete as they ever were (for better or worse).
In your opinion... doesn't sound like concrete evidence. Please cite your sources. I know you won't, because no one ever can cite such a source... they don't exist. I'm anxiously awaiting your reply (or your conspicuous avoidance of the issue).


Alex123: And your argument doesn't work anyway, you are talking about people who claim to have seen aliens without being on mushrooms, I am talking about people being on mushrooms encountering entities, which they have done for thousands of years.
What, like it matters if you see the same "aliens" on shrooms or not?
"Dude, mushrooms like opened my mind's eye to the 27th dimension so I could see and communicate with the aliens."
"What did the aliens say Alex?"
"They told me to burn things."

Could you point me to the cave paintings that depict the anal probes?

All you have is subjective evidence, I'm sorry. I once had this retarded cousin come up to me and tell me that he could talk to animals. I asked him if he could talk to any animal. He said "Yes". So I asked him to talk my neighbor's cat (I told him it was mine though, my neighbors were out of town and we were watching their cat). He told me about how the "my" cat loves it when I pet him and play with him. Then I told him that I hadn't ever played with it and that it was my neighbor's cat. He just walked away. That little experiment didn't sound so "scientific" did it? But it was enough to disprove my cousin's "theory". At least my retarded cousin would actually participate in an investigation... not one of you (I hate grouping all of you...) "believers" have actually put themselves up to some sort of realistic scrutiny. You just brand me a naysayer and that's that. I don't care... I'm just doing my part by trying to keep the bullshit out of philosophy and spirituality.


Incidentally, I've never believed in reports of aliens. How come I saw them?
Maybe your mind's eye "saw" them, but as long as the photographic eye doesn't, they are only a subjective figment of your neural cascades. I bet as soon as you "saw" them, you immediately recognized them as the stereotypical "aliens". I wonder why that is...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #727836 -

What are you on about? Do you get anal probes when you take mushrooms? I don't know anyone who does.

OK, forget the word aliens and substitute the word "spirits". That way there's no confusion with your war of the worlds bullshit.

And getting back to the point, why should DMT produce these effects in human beings? If you can't suggest a reason why then stop ass-raping the thread would you son? Thanks.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #728309 -

Could you point me to the cave paintings that depict the anal probes?

The paintings in the Cave of Lascaux in france DO depict cattle mutilation. So there!



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #728314 -

Anyone got any theories as to why DMT should exist in so many places in nature (when it appears to serve no obvious purpose to any living organism),
There are untold compounds in plants that we have no idea how they function or why. Our ignorance of this is indicative of NOTHING AT ALL except that is not very important to mainstream researchers.

...and why one of it's main effects is to contact human beings with what they consider to be aliens?
One can have visions off of rattlesnake venom yet this effect has nothing to do with its primary purpose.

Is it just coincidence?
Coinciding with WHAT?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #728341 -

OK, forget the word aliens and substitute the word "spirits".

(No facetiousness implied) If one has never before seen a spirit, then how does identify a vision as such?

Having done Ayahuasca, peyote, LSD, and mushrooms over a 30 year period, I have never once encountered an entity. This could be due to 1 of 4 main possibilities:

1. Did not take enough (complete brain fry).
2. There are no such things.
3. Some people's imagination are more susceptable to what others say.
4. Only certain people can receive these images.

Having lived through the later part of the psychedelic era where large numbers of friends were doing copious amounts of these substances (albeit not DMT), I never once heard of alien visions until the 90s.

Going back to an old thought / thread - I once asked about cartoons images on mushrooms. Never got one decent response. I frequently see cartoon characters while tripping (elves?). Why are alien images considered to be more "real" or "significant" than my usual imaginary images? Or more real than dancing curtains for that matter?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #728578 -

Shroomalicious: Define what a jackass is?
A fool.

Yes, but what is a fool? Who gets to decide who is the fool and who isn't? Who gets to decide what the actions of a fool are? People have called a good deal of Earth greatest contributers fools...and perhaps they were.

Define what is concrete evidence is?
Something that holds water... I know you know what I mean. Don't play games.

I am not playing games, I am serious. Once again, in many peoples opinion Aliens/Spirits hold plenty of water...in many other peoples opinion they do not...which bring me to my question...who gets to decide what hold water? It is a matter of opinion.

Well, I never used the word "objectivity"... you have a slight reading comprehension problem. I said objectively. If you want to go full-scale dialectic on this one... I won't bother. It's a waste of my time... I've posted my thoughts on being objective way too many times only to be ignored.

Are you saying that the word objectivity and the word objectively are not similar?

I think you are only as "hung up" on your beliefs as I am on mine.
Is this some sort of ruse?

What makes you think that? I have gone head on into all points you brought up and if you don't feel that way then repost what I have not gone over and I will.

People have been reporting the same type of phenomenon for centuries, IMO they are as concrete as they ever were (for better or worse).
In your opinion... doesn't sound like concrete evidence. Please cite your sources. I know you won't, because no one ever can cite such a source... they don't exist. I'm anxiously awaiting your reply (or your conspicuous avoidance of the issue).

All right I will give you a few things...but please allow me a breif assumption...it seems that no matter what people put in front of you you always discredit the source. Whether it be a guys account or whether it be pictures, etc. While you have every right to do this giving you different sources won't help you much, I think.

Read Erich von Daniken. Look at Shroomism pcitures (for starters) in his Alien's post. Although he didn't believe they were aliens even Swami could not explain them all...BTW, why is that? When something happens that you admit you don't know what it is and yet your immediately throw out certain ideas, that is not my opinion of subjectivity, but that may be yours. Also, read the Sirious Mystery, some interesting things in that book. I'll give you a few more if you want them but I think you aren't going to be satisfied.

At least my retarded cousin would actually participate in an investigation... not one of you (I hate grouping all of you...) "believers" have actually put themselves up to some sort of realistic scrutiny. You just brand me a naysayer and that's that. I don't care... I'm just doing my part by trying to keep the bullshit out of philosophy and spirituality.
I have been and will continue to throw my beliefs up against "disbelievers", that is what these two post are about.

Once again YOU are deciding what is bullshit about philosophy and spiritualy when the entire topic is a matter of opinion, unlike say science where an igneous rock is an igneous rock.

Seriously, I don't mind talking about this and I enjoy communicating with you. I don't agree with you about many things but you can learn something from everyone and besides you are an intelligent guy. Challenge my beliefs anytime.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #730024 -

"One can have visions off of rattlesnake venom yet this effect has nothing to do with its primary purpose."

Yes but rattlesnake venom doesn't occur naturally in the human brain.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #730031 -

"Having lived through the later part of the psychedelic era where large numbers of friends were doing copious amounts of these substances (albeit not DMT), I never once heard of alien visions until the 90s."

Strange, Maria Sabina was reporting contacting the spirits the day Wasson met her in 53. There are stones depicting strange entities carved into mushroom stones from 10000 years ago and cave paintings of bee-headed "aliens" holding mushrooms from 3000 years ago.

Were your friends doing mushrooms alone in darkness with their eyes closed? Or were they at a party walking round going "The wall just like moved dude...crazy"



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #730079 -

LOL!


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #730097 -

Yes but rattlesnake venom doesn't occur naturally in the human brain.

Though this thread is about DMT, many people claim similar visions from psilocybin; also not native to the human brain. So your point is...?




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #730120 -

Strange, Maria Sabina was reporting contacting the spirits the day Wasson met her in 53.
What exactly is strange? It is strange that Maria didn't tell me before I was born?My statement is entirely and unquivocably true. I heard NO reports until the 90s (post "Communion"). Please post the writing from Maria Sabina to which you refer in which she mentions beings from another physical planet.

So now, according to you: spirits = aliens = animal totems = strange entities? Others would add: demons, angels, leprecauns, imps, devils, genies, trolls, etc. Lets just lump every myth together and roll it into one big ball.

There are stones depicting strange entities carved into mushroom stones from 10000 years ago and cave paintings of bee-headed "aliens" holding mushrooms from 3000 years ago.
There is NOTHING in the cave paintings that indicate beings from another star system. PERIOD!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #730586 -

You could read the new biography of Bill Hicks where it states that in 1987 him and a friend had an alien contact experience on mushrooms so vivid that it permanently changed his world view. As the author says "contact with insectoid intelligence, the "trans-galactic other" as Tom Robbins calls it is a common occurence of high dose psilocybin experiences. 1987...is that pre-Communion?

"There is NOTHING in the cave paintings that indicate beings from another star system. PERIOD! "

Who says aliens have to come from "another star system"? Is that what you've picked up from watching Communion? All I'm saying is that 3000 years ago guys were drawing bee-headed entities on the wall holding handfuls of mushrooms. Coincidence? The simple fact is that high dose psilocybin and DMT puts people in contact with entities/spirits/aliens. The fact that your mates didn't see any because they were face down in the piss trough at the Sammy Hagar concert isn't really important. It is a common feature of the psilocybin experience. DM Turner refers to mushrooms as "the extra-terrestial infiltration of earth" in his guide to psychedelics.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #730589 -

"Though this thread is about DMT, many people claim similar visions from psilocybin; also not native to the human brain. So your point is...?"

As i said in the first post, psilocybin/psilocin are so similar to DMT that they would be treated in exactly the same way by the brains receptors.






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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #730776 -

About the alien reports:
Could it be possible that due to the improving possebilities of communication technologies (like the internet) the reports of alien encounters has increased? Just like you are now more likely to read a party report. It doesnt mean people party more, it means it is more reported. Or the war in Israel. It doesnt mean Israel was in peace the previous centuries.

But, I do think does alien reports are bullshit. I hop around in fairyland when Im tripping, and friends turn into princesses and monkeys. Does this mean the we live in a fairytale and my friends are what I had seen in trips? The clouds are living creatures with enourmous landscapes on their back, and the stars are their eyes? The moon is a scull and I am not more then a floating particle in my own mind? Maybe it does, this world isnt more real those. Only, you dont live in those worlds while sober.



About DMT and stuff:
Well, Ive never taken DMT, do plan to sometime when i think I can handle it, but till then I dont think im capable of figuring out why it works in the way it does.
But, I dont think it works in excectly the same way as mushies. A mushroomtrip is also completely different from a LSD trip, right, though I do asume it is possible to have a similiar hallucination? Ive never taken LSD either, so sorry if im incorrect. But if I am, the only thing that is the same is the fact that your tripping.

And the similiarty (sp?) of a substance doesnt mean its the same. Serotin only differs one atom from psylocybine (or psylocybe) and I think the same thing counts for LSD and even DMT, but I could be wrong here.


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its all placebo

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #730796 -

"One can have visions off of rattlesnake venom yet this effect has nothing to do with its primary purpose.""

"Yes, but rattlesnake venom doesn't occur naturally in the human brain."
"Yes, but psilocybin doesn't occur naturally in the human brain."

Doesn't matter that psilocybin is similar to DMT, it is NOT endogenous to the human body. Millions of chemicals are similar to ones that are in the human body, yet are NOT native. You used one point in an earlier argument. When I point out your flaw, you do the typical dance around. Please attempt to be cohesive and consistent.

As i said in the first post, psilocybin/psilocin are so similar to DMT that they would be treated in exactly the same way by the brains receptors.
Not true. I would wager a large sum of money on this.







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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/08/02 01:38 PM)

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #730817 -

1987...is that pre-Communion?
No, it's AFTER. Its also NOT the Maria Sabina report that you mentioned. Once again, please reference it.

"There is NOTHING in the cave paintings that indicate beings from another star system. PERIOD! "
Who says aliens have to come from "another star system"?
Almost all of the alien fans on this board. Alien means "NOT NATIVE" - "FROM ANOTHER LAND".

All I'm saying is that 3000 years ago guys were drawing bee-headed entities on the wall holding handfuls of mushrooms. Coincidence?
Coincidence with what? Primitives frequently drew animal totems.

The simple fact is that high dose psilocybin and DMT puts people in contact with entities/spirits/aliens.
This is poor argumentative technique. It is neither simple, nor a fact.

The fact that your mates didn't see any because they were face down in the piss trough at the Sammy Hagar concert isn't really important.
Everyone that I ever knew that tripped over a 30 year period was drunk at a Sammy Hagar concert? Huh? You sure know how to strengthen your case.

It is a common feature of the psilocybin experience. DM Turner refers to mushrooms as "the extra-terrestial infiltration of earth" in his guide to psychedelics.
And DM Turner who overdosed on ketamine and drowned in his bathtub also is supposed to strengthen your case? Another sterling researcher down the drain - so to speak.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #731334 -

As i said in the first post, psilocybin/psilocin are so similar to DMT that they would be treated in exactly the same way by the brains receptors.
Not true. I would wager a large sum of money on this.

Well, I'm afraid you'd lose. You think that brain receptors are so tuned as to reject an atom with one oxygen difference? If the psilocin was approaching the receptor at a particular spatial orientation it would be absolutely indistinguishable from DMT.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #731345 -

Coincidence with what? Primitives frequently drew animal totems.

It has a bee's head with a mans body holding mushrooms. I've never seen an animal like that in my neighbourhood. You really need to see it before you can comment.

"It is neither simple, nor a fact."

Yes it is.

"Everyone that I ever knew that tripped over a 30 year period was drunk at a Sammy Hagar concert? Huh? You sure know how to strengthen your case."

We are talking about mushrooms/DMT here. Not everyone you knew who has tripped. Clearly for many people the alien experience occurs. It hasn't occured to you, too bad.

"And DM Turner who overdosed on ketamine and drowned in his bathtub also is supposed to strengthen your case? Another sterling researcher down the drain - so to speak"

DM Turner committed suicide. Real classy of you to laugh at him.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (07/08/02 11:04 AM)

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #731432 -

You think that brain receptors are so tuned as to reject an atom with one oxygen difference?
This can very well affect the affinity of the molecule to the receptor. It changes the chemical reactivity of the molecule.

If the psilocin was approaching the receptor at a particular spatial orientation it would be absolutely indistinguishable from DMT.
It's not spatial orientation. It's chemical reactions and attractions.

By your logic Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide should work the same in the human body. This is not true.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #731448 -

I can't be arsed contributing to this conversation but...

>You think that brain receptors are so tuned as to reject an atom with one oxygen difference?

...yes, they are, and there are many of examples which could illustrate this. It's late, i'm tired and i have to go to bed 'cause i have a busy day tomorrow so i can't be bothered looking through textbooks/ journals for an example which illustrates this and i can't remember one off the top of my head but if you'd rather not take my word for it i can find you at least one concrete example in a couple of days or so when my life's a little less hectic

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: NeiL]
    #731458 -

...i thought D.M.Turner died by accident? Just what i read....

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: NeiL]
    #731478 -

i just thought...

an easier way maybe of thinking about why psilocybin and DMT might affect whatever receptors potentialy very differently is that, although the receptors themselves are much much larger than the drug molecules, the sites that the drug molecules actually bind to on the receptors are tiny compared to the total size of the receptor and are on the the same sort of scale as the drug molecules.
So, what seems like a tiny difference (e.g. one oxygen molecule) is actually a huge huge difference in the size and shape of the drug molecule on that sort of tiny tiny scale.

...er it seems like i've accidently started contributing to this conversation

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #731651 -

It has a bee's head with a mans body holding mushrooms. I've never seen an animal like that in my neighbourhood. You really need to see it before you can comment.
I HAVE seen it and don't come to the same conclusion that you do. Have also seen unusual African, and Indian masks and headdresses. Without a cultural reference point it is almost impossible to know what a man thousands of years ago was trying to communicate.

It would be as if modern Western culture was wiped out and then in some vault a 1000 years from now, they found a slew of halloween masks (Aliens, Vampires, Ghouls, etc.) and tried to figure out what we meant - Impossible!


DM Turner committed suicide. Real classy of you to laugh at him.
Am not laughing at him. I am highly empathetic to another's pain. Worked the Suicide Prevention Hotline for 6 months some 5 years back and don't take it lightly.

However, you use the writings of an unstable mind to reinforce your stance. It doesn't mean that he was wrong, but surely makes his conclusions highly suspect, don't you agree?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/08/02 01:49 PM)

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #731662 -

Still waiting for the Maria Sabina reference.

Still waiting for the public wager.

*sigh* Can none stand up to scrutiny? Who can handle the MIGHTY Swami in a straight debate?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #731671 -

Still waiting for the Maria Sabina reference.

Still waiting for the public wager.

*sigh* Can none stand up to scrutiny? Who can handle the MIGHTY Swami in a straight debate?


Wow......issues



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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #731773 -

would be as if modern Western culture was wiped out and then in some vault a 1000 years from now, they found a slew of halloween masks (Aliens, Vampires, Ghouls, etc.) and tried to figure out what we meant - Impossible!

Totally true.


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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #731896 -

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.hurley/

Just thought I'd toss this link in.


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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #732287 -

Still waiting for the Maria Sabina reference.

Have you ever read any Maria Sabina? Do you know even the basics of what a curanda does? That their whole reason for being is to contact the spirits? You really don't know that? Then why are you posting at a mushroom board?

"*sigh* Can none stand up to scrutiny? Who can handle the MIGHTY Swami in a straight debate?"

However many psychdelics you took it wasn't enough. You sound incredibly pompous. Your "arguments" have been comprehensively destroyed and still you moan. It was you laid face down in the piss trough at the sammy hagar concert wasn't it...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #732350 -

Do you know even the basics of what a curanda does? That their whole reason for being is to contact the spirits? You really don't know that? Then why are you posting at a mushroom board?
Everyone whip out their curandera doctorate before posting please.

Spirits usually refers to dead ancestors who visit to help, not fat-headed creatures from the Outer Limits.

Where is her alien reference, please?

However many psychdelics you took it wasn't enough.
Guess not, that's why I am still here. However you could send your stash to me at :

The "Get Swami Ripped" Foundation
P.O. Box 1345
Boulder, CO 75125

Youre donations ARE tax deductible.

You sound incredibly pompous.
The usual jumping to conclusions. How quickly you rise to the bait...

Your "arguments" have been comprehensively destroyed and still you moan.
That's why you duck my bet.

It was you laid face down in the piss trough at the sammy hagar concert wasn't it...
Please get your temporal viewing ability realigned, you are looking in the wrong sector.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #732419 -

Hey, hey leave Sammy out of this.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: ]
    #732476 -

Yes swami dear


Onto other matters:

Evolving said:
By your logic Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide should work the same in the human body. This is not true.

The state reached after taking psilocybin after 2-3 hours is indistinguishable from that of DMT. Terence Mckenna said that. Pray explain how your brain reaches exactly the same state if psilocybin and DMT don't work on the same brain receptors..


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #732522 -

"The state reached after taking psilocybin after 2-3 hours is indistinguishable from that of DMT. Terence Mckenna said that. Pray explain how your brain reaches exactly the same state if psilocybin and DMT don't work on the same brain receptors.."

You do realize that you're using someone else's anecdotal evidence as the backbone of your argument, don't you?
Besides... Terrance is dead wrong. His main concern is a book sale, not science (I would think neurology is the field of interest here). Sometimes people are pioneers in one aspect and complete dipshits in other aspects. Think what you will, but know that when its in the public domain... you're fair game.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #732733 -

Let's examine the shifting sands of Alex's arguments somewhat paraphrased:

1. Berates me for not having read a text to which he can provide no reference.
Nuff said.

2. Only visions induced by chemicals endogenous to the human body have merit.
Of course, psilocybin is NOT endogenous to the human body. But he contradicts his own argument! Then he shifts into third gear with:

3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Again, not true. So another tactic is needed.

4. The mind-state achieved by these two different compounds is identical.
Not even close.

And finally, of course the ad hominem must be thrown in when the debater has painted himself into a corner. The last straw of a weak mind.

What is truly pathetic is that the other DMT/Alien proponents are silent on this (and much more serious issues in other threads). Can't put down one of their brethren. And we wonder why the Catholic Church covers up for predatory priests. The reason is simple: Believers are NOT interested in the truth, but in reinforcing their shaky system lest it crumbles like a house of cards.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #732742 -

It is very difficult to make philosophical thoughts and discussions in such a poor language as English, because its structure is incomplete and secondary. Thats the main reason for THOUSANDS of Greek words within the English vocabulary and the use of many words used to describe several things/situations in English.
A slight investigation of the Greek vocabulary, will reveal that not only there are specific words for ANY possible situation that needs to be written/explained / talked about, but every single word is able to reveal the true meaning of it-self., just by analyzing the letters that form each word one by one.
For example the Greek letter Y (pronounced Ipsilon) is used in words when it wants to add the meaning of liquid collection and vertical direction to the ground (thats why the shape Y) the Greek word for water is Y-dor abd every word that has to do with water starts with Y like Ygrasia(=humidity)
The word "archetype" is also Greek.
This is the mother of all languages, very obviously, the word "Alien" in Greek (just as the rest of the words) can NOT be misunderstud and the meaning can NOT be explained wrong if one knows the true meaning of the word.
So the word Alien is a branch word (Exw-giinos=Outer-earthed) =out of earth. Now if we consider out of earth the above ,spiritual unknown as Terrence said (i cried while i read the post with his words before i read that it was his words!!) it is just a matter of subconsious reaction in front of something that we can not explain.
In this world we all have common,common seem the other worlds..... Terrence is an alien! lol
more fantastic Greek words: Psilokyvini=Psylocybin
Amanitas=Amanitas
manitari=Mushroom(!!)
Mouskimoli=Muscimol
Mykitas=Fungi
Mykites=Mycetes
Agariko=Toadstool

Psyxi=spiritual part=psyche
Theos=the one who can see/sight=God
Free your mind.
Mushrooms----------Near Death Experience
Dmt-------------------Near Death Experience
---Once, a shphere flyed above the 2D geometrical shape country.... "A CIRCLE ! A FLYING CIRCLE!!!" screamed Mr.square...


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind

"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



Edited by Sterile (07/09/02 12:16 AM)

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sterile]
    #732888 -

It is very difficult to make philosophical thoughts and discussions in such a poor language as English, because its structure is incomplete and secondary.

That's a new one... just when I think I've had a handle on all the bullshit, a new one comes along. Why don't you just communicate with us using mathematics? That would be much easier to follow.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #732911 -

1. Berates me for not having read a text to which he can provide no reference.
Nuff said.

So it's my fault that you're pig ignorant? Oh dear. Do some searching for Maria Sabina and read what you find you silly sausage.

2. Only visions induced by chemicals endogenous to the human body have merit.
Of course, psilocybin is NOT endogenous to the human body. But he contradicts his own argument! Then he shifts into third gear with:

Hang on, go back a gear. When did i say that? I asked why does the human brain produce these substances and why do they result in alien contact experiences. Not that they have "merit".

3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Again, not true.

Hang on again, not true according to who? Every researcher from Rick Strassman onwards says this is the case. Yet Swami, some guy full of wind and piss on an internet message board says it isn't. Yeah..we believe you...thousands wouldn't...

4. The mind-state achieved by these two different compounds is identical.
Not even close.

Once again, Terence Mckenna and his brother took more DMT and mushrooms than you ever have and knew a damn sight more about it. Rick Strassman has carried out research on DMT for years and written a book on it. He calls psilocybin "orally active DMT". That's good enough for me. Do you have any evidence for the things you say or do you just make them up as you go along?

And finally, of course the ad hominem must be thrown in when the debater has painted himself into a corner. The last straw of a weak mind.

At least i've got a mind


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #732962 -

Holy shit are you out of line.

1. Berates me for not having read a text to which he can provide no reference.
Nuff said.
"So it's my fault that you're pig ignorant? Oh dear. Do some searching for Maria Sabina and read what you find you silly sausage."

Asking for a simple reference to refute you is ignorance?
Silly sausage???

3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Again, not true.

"Hang on again, not true according to who? Every researcher from Rick Strassman onwards says this is the case."

Every researcher, eh? You must have an extensive journal collection. I don't know how to explain this to you, but you're just fucking wrong. Take a look on www.erowid.org, even they say there's a difference. If it's a different drug and has different effects (DMT lasts 30 minutes, where psiloc(yb)in lasts 5-6 hours), then it works in a different way. I don't know if you know this, but there are several different types of serotonin receptors.

Strassman... could you give me a page number? Also, I DEFINITELY know that he stated that he had never taken any psychedelics (who knows the truth of this statement though). If this is true, then can we really take his word as law?

4. The mind-state achieved by these two different compounds is identical.
Not even close.
"Once again, Terence Mckenna and his brother took more DMT and mushrooms than you ever have and knew a damn sight more about it. Rick Strassman has carried out research on DMT for years and written a book on it. He calls psilocybin 'orally active DMT'. "

From personal experience and these weird things we call SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS (and papers and books and articles), there is plenty of research that explicitly states that "different drug = works different" applies to entheogens. There are so many links and references available on the subject, it is pretty much assumed that if you are posting in this forum... YOU HAVE A DECENT WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF ENTHEOGENS and how they work in your brain. I guess assumption is the mother of all fuckups... we fucked up and assumed that you actually research things before you post.

Do you have any evidence for the things you say or do you just make them up as you go along?
Now YOU'RE wanting evidence? This is too rich! Crack open a fucking book, bub.


And finally, of course the ad hominem must be thrown in when the debater has painted himself into a corner. The last straw of a weak mind.

"At least i've got a mind"

You remember that comeback from third grade, too?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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English vs Greek [Re: Sterile]
    #733034 -

some Greek words that are used on this board:

umm... philosophy, mathematics, physics, psychology, biology, anthropology, history, geography, mycology, music, graphology, trigonometry, sphere, circle, pentagon, hypothesis, drugs, ecstasy, pharmaceutical, toxic, logos, logic, entheogens, psychedelics, technology, ethnography, photography, plane, nootropics, narcotics, therapy, heresy, alpha & omega, spiral, phobia, Thanatos, Eros, Uranus, air, cosmos, atom, proton, photon, angel, demon, planet, disc, galaxy, star, system, ego, bible, Gaia, magic, mystic, esoterica, idea, sceptic, symbol, phallic, archaic, amoeba, euphoria, paranoia, myth, hero, android, politics, democracy, monarchy, anarchy, enigma, neuron, centre, maniac, fanatic, telepathy, fantasy, spores, magnet, pole.......

just the first few that come into my mind... need any more?

can you really hold a conversation about *anything* without using Greek words??

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #733106 -

Strassman... could you give me a page number?

Page 37.

Now go read it you silly bastard.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #733113 -

"(DMT lasts 30 minutes, where psiloc(yb)in lasts 5-6 hours), then it works in a different way. I don't know if you know this, but there are several different types of serotonin receptors."

Are you totally clueless or what? DMT lasts 30 minutes if you smoke it. You eat mushrooms which is why it takes longer for the effects to come on. Capish? If you drink DMT in ayahuasca it lasts 4-5 hours. Get a fucking clue would ya?

Once again, i recomend reading a few books before you write posts. Not just browsing erowid for 2 minutes and thinking you're the world expert. Invisible landscape and archaic revival by Mckenna for example where he says exactly what I'm saying.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (07/09/02 07:11 AM)

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #733315 -

Dont get upset dear Sclorch, i didnt say that we can not communicate, i am just trying to make our communication *better* by revealing the true meaning of the world "Alien" in our mother language, when in the one you use now "Alien" means whatever you want it to mean.
It is not bad to learn new things you know


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind

"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2121531 -

Note: I know this is some old shit, but I never got around to posting about Alex's "proof" on page 37.

Alex123: 3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Swami: Again, not true.
Alex123: Hang on again, not true according to who? Every researcher from Rick Strassman onwards says this is the case.
Sclorch: Strassman... could you give me a page number?
Alex123: Page 37.
Now go read it you silly bastard.


Okay... THIS is page 37 in its entirety from Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule:

"__When these mushrooms are ingested, the body removes a phosphorous atom from the psilocybin, converting it to psilocin.

[PICTURE OF A PSILOCIN MOLECULE]

___Psilocin differs from DMT by only one oxygen. I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as "orally active DMT."
___Another important tryptamine is 5-methoxy-DMT, or 5-MeO-DMT. It differs from DMT by the addition of only one methyl group and one oxygen.

[PICTURE OF A 5-methoxy-DMT MOLECULE]"

That's it, kids.
Nowhere on page 37 or in the rest of the book does Strassman state that "Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brain's chemistry in exactly the same way."

I suppose I'll chalk this one up to the infamous problem of reading comprehension.

----Sclorch Out----


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2219943 -

Slow down there would ya old sclorch?

Strassman says:

I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as "orally active DMT."

You say:

Nowhere on page 37 or in the rest of the book does Strassman state that "Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brain's chemistry in exactly the same way."

Strassman says it's "ORALLY ACTIVE DMT" for christ'sakes! Isn't that simple enough for you to grasp?

Are you trying to say that the effect on brain chemistry of orally active DMT is going to be vastly different to DMT? If so, I'm gonna have to chalk that one up to you talking through your hat again.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2220207 -

1)There is an undeniable similarity between the psilocybin molecule and the DMT molecule.

2)The experiences are similar, perhaps not identical but when you even out the time differences i.e DMT is a short sharp shock compared to the longer mushroom experience, there are similarities.

3)Many people have reported contact experiences after ingesting both these substances.


Can we all agree on this?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2220257 -

Yep.

I remember Mckenna saying psilocybin takes you to the same place DMT does.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2220417 -

alex he's right. Rick doesn't say what you claim.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2220624 -

Then explain the difference in effects on the brain between DMT and orally active DMT. I'd be really interested.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2220657 -

im to lazy to read all this bickering. but what i think the thing that makes the most difference between dmt and 4-ho-dmt is the route of administration. 4-ho obviouly can only be taken orally, and USUALLY dmt is smoked. smoked n,n dmt is way way different than psiolocin. however when dmt is used with an maoi orally it becomes very very similar to a 4-ho-dmt experience. obviously they do not act on all of the same brain sites, even little chain additions do affect the chemicals action ( you have to be ignorant to dispute that fact). but overall 4-ho-dmt is very very closely related to n,n dmt so i dont see why they wouldnt use most of the same brain receptors.( MOST but not ALL)


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2220671 -

PLEASE NOTE: This particular post was just a test.

Christ...
Okay, let me put this in bold for you... wait, you'll need color too...

NOWHERE ON PAGE 37 (the page YOU gave as a source) DOES STRASSMAN STATE (as you claim) "I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as 'orally active DMT.'"

Please note that Strassman used the modifier "I like to think" in his statement, that is, IF Strassman ever said that in the book. I own and have read Strassman's book and I don't recall him ever saying any such thing. However, if you'd like to tell me the correct page number from which you obtained this Strassman quote, I'd gladly pull my book off the shelf.

Furthermore, even IF Strassman did indeed write that in his book, it DOES NOT mean that psiloc(yb)in is equivalent with DMT. This is not much different than me saying something like "I like to think that the stars are the angels' flashlights shining down on us." Are the stars actually seraphic mag-lites? NO!
Likewise, DMT is NOT orally-active psiloc(yb)in.

Edited by Sclorch (01/05/04 05:43 PM)

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Infrared]
    #2220694 -

when dmt is used with an maoi orally it becomes very very similar to a 4-ho-dmt experience.

um.. nope

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2220697 -

ummm, yea. have you taken both freebase dmt and oral dmt? and 5meodmt and 5-hodmt and 4-ho-dmt?


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2220705 -

This is a bit like somebody saying "Beer is just like whisky" and somebody else saying "no its not, its nothing like it."


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Always Smi2le

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Infrared]
    #2220707 -

yes

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2220714 -

eat 7 grams of shrooms or drink a cup of aya. if you say they are not similar at all then you have problems. they are obviously very similar, and obviously not identical, obviously obviosuly


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Infrared]
    #2220729 -

There's a 5 minute overlap between very high mushroom doses especially with mao inhibitors to a threshold dose of ayahuasca. Are they similiar? No. The word "trip" suits mushrooms, but it doesn't suit ayahuasca. If someone asked me what ayahuasca was like, I would not say anything like "it's kinda like mushrooms." That would be very misleading. fin

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2220745 -

"Are they similiar? No. The word "trip" suits mushrooms, but it doesn't suit ayahuasca. If someone asked me what ayahuasca was like, I would not say anything like "it's kinda like mushrooms." That would be very misleading. fin"

thats like saying hydrocodeine is absolutely nothing like codeine

so what would you call it? magical fairy train to dream land? "tripping" is just a broad term used for all pyschedelics. out of all drugs which would ayahuasca be closest too?? HMmmm, let me think, this is tough


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2220750 -

NOWHERE ON PAGE 37 (the page YOU gave as a source) DOES STRASSMAN STATE (as you claim) "I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as 'orally active DMT.'"

Strange because I've got my original copy right here in front of me and it says precisely that on page 37.

It's in the section where he has a picture of each molecule if you can't find it.

Furthermore, even IF Strassman did indeed write that in his book

There's no "IF" about it.

it DOES NOT mean that psiloc(yb)in is equivalent with DMT

He says he likes to think of psilocin as orally active DMT. What does that statement imply? Here's a clue - that PSILOCIN IS LIKE DMT. If psilocin WASN'T like DMT he wouldn't have called it orally active DMT would he? For the third time, explain to me the difference in effects on the brain between DMT and orally active DMT.

Jeez.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2220935 -

for fucks sakes sclorch
"NOWHERE ON PAGE 37 (the page YOU gave as a source) DOES STRASSMAN STATE (as you claim) "I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as 'orally active DMT.'"
how can you still say that? someone even took the time to post the page in its entirety for you to look at , and yet you still say this? and you say you have the book on your shelf but your not going to look at it? he already told you the page number is fucking 37! did you just skip all the last 15 posts or what?

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2221261 -

Maybe they have different copies of the book.

In my copy, on page 37, it says:

"Psilocin differs from DMT by only one oxygen. I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as 'orally active DMT'."


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221263 -

Okay kids...
I was just being a bitch and wondering if anyone actually READ what I wrote.

Take a look at my post above (#2121531):
[PICTURE OF A PSILOCIN MOLECULE]
___Psilocin differs from DMT by only one oxygen. I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as "orally active DMT."

Then look at my last post (#2220671):
Nowhere on page 37 or in the rest of the book does Strassman state that "Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brain's chemistry in exactly the same way."

Okay, this was a simple switcharoo... and not ONE person caught it.
The original argument between Alex and I was over his claim that "psilocybin/psilocin are so similar to DMT that they would be treated in exactly the same way by the brains receptors" (see post #731334).

Now THIS is what my point is:
Psiloc(yb)in is NOT equivalent to DMT. 
Similar?  Yes, but Strassman's statement should be viewed more like a rule of thumb rather than a biological fact.  This furthers the unlikelihood of Strassman lying about his never having a psychedelic experience - which, I think, would limit his ability to understand any possible difference between the two drugs.

Read closer next time guys...

:wink: @ Alex


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2221415 -

So obviously it's going to be very hard to form a common believe system here in this forum, because that's as far as things could go. No matter what is said in this thread nothing is going to be scientifically significant, we can only discuss what researchers have learned, and we can barely discuss that.

So the only way anyones going to learn anything that mass people will believe as true fact would be if DMT were legal, and many studies were done. So unless anyone has an eeg machine or can scientifically prove telepathy/amazing things that can happen it's only going to exist in our own minds(and maybe friends).

Really what more can be said on this topic? Oh I know, you suck alex, nothing personal, it seems to be common sense around these parts. Luckily common sense isnt so common, so that may mean you could possibly not be considered a jackass..

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221730 -

I haven't encountered anything I would consider "alien" on DMT.. No elves for me - maybe they just don't like me :wink: "dude fuck this guy let's hide when he vaporizes this shit" - definitely see tons of wild shit that looks very energetic but I can't say I've noticed any creatures.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2221801 -

You are NOT one of the chosen. Maybe in your next incarnation if you start believing...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2222267 -

I'm sure I could find elves and gnomes and aliens and spirits and extra-dimensional beings of all sorts if I looked for them.... It seems like one could find a whole spectrum of experiences "in there."


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2222287 -

and by the way I feel that DMT is quite different from mushrooms, not just due to the rapidity of the trip.. Even in a brew (taken orally with MAOI), where the length of the trips is similar, there is a difference. That, and the comedown is way lighter and less disorienting for me


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222310 -

Okay, this was a simple switcharoo... and not ONE person caught it.

No, I caught it ok sclorch. I didn't mention it because I assumed you're not very bright and pointing your mistake out might embarrass you.

Psiloc(yb)in is NOT equivalent to DMT

Well, for the fourth time can you give us the difference in how DMT and orally active DMT affects the brain?

which, I think, would limit his ability to understand any possible difference between the two drugs.

Terence Mckenna said mushrooms take you to the same place DMT does but for 4 hours. Has he had enough psychedelic experience to know the difference?

@ Alex

Well, I'm not laughing at you sclorch, I'm pitying you.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222800 -

You and sclorch should "take it outside" or maybe *gasp* trip together...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222826 -

Alex: Well, for the fourth time can you give us the difference in how DMT and orally active DMT affects the brain?

This is a loaded question, part of which I thought I made clear that I disagreed with.

from Erowid:



From these charts, it is quite clear that the effects are very different (and we're only talking about time, there are also the subjective effects that are much different). If the effects are this different, then how can one posit that the chemicals both work in the exact same manner? It's like saying that Tylenol and aspirin must work in the same manner because they both get rid of your headache, though one takes 15 minutes to kick in and the other takes 30 minutes.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222858 -

So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking aspirin make it a different drug because it takes longer to reach your brain?

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2222861 -

I don't think sclorch would be up for a trip together - by the sound of it, on his part at least,  "This time it's personal.." :smile2:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222896 -

I would bet you $1500 that sclorch would trip with you.  :lol:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2222931 -

Sure, as long as he didn't hit me with a "Strassman didn't say that" when we were peaking.. :smile2:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222939 -

Gawd

What you're trying to do is make this:
So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking tylenol make it a different drug because it takes longer to reach your brain?
equivalent to this:
So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking aspirin make it a different drug because it takes longer to reach your brain?

You can't just do that and pretend not to notice the explicit difference.
Once again,
Me: Psiloc(yb)in is NOT equivalent to DMT.
Similar? Yes, but Strassman's statement should be viewed more like a rule of thumb rather than a biological fact.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222945 -

Alex123 said:
Sure, as long as he didn't hit me with a "Strassman didn't say that" when we were peaking.. :smile2:


:lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222963 -

So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking tylenol

No, we're not on the same page here sclorch. You're trying to compare two different drugs here whereas Strassman calls psilocin orally active DMT. A direct comparison. I've never heard any expert call tylenol "orally active aspirin".

Psiloc(yb)in is NOT equivalent to DMT

But in structure and effects on the brain it's as close to DMT as makes no difference, which is what I said in the first place. DMT may be more intense and last for a shorter time when smoked - in the same way crack is more intense and briefer than cocaine, but it's still cocaine at the end of the day.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222985 -

But what the highly captive audience (of two) really wants to know is: is smoked sclorch equivalent to injected Alex123...  :nut:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222998 -

Alex123 said:
So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking tylenol

No, we're not on the same page here sclorch. You're trying to compare two different drugs here whereas Strassman calls psilocin orally active DMT. A direct comparison. I've never heard any expert call tylenol "orally active aspirin".


Okay, this is what I've been waiting for...
You did read this "Strassman's statement should be viewed more like a rule of thumb rather than a biological fact," right?

I tell you what, if you honestly believe that Strassman thinks that psiloc(yb)in IS orally-active DMT, then I'm going to flat out state that Strassman is WRONG.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2223025 -

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lets just lump every myth together and roll it into one big ball

...And say that their sum, due to the partial differentiation of each myth respectively, can be re-integrated back  into the Universal Story..

To think that each strange perspective is a uniquely permutated- relative from one's own vantage point -piece of the Chaotic Puzzle's Vision... 

That's insanity !  :lipsrsealed:

:lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2223344 -

I tell you what, if you honestly believe that Strassman thinks that psiloc(yb)in IS orally-active DMT, then I'm going to flat out state that Strassman is WRONG.

Yeah, i gathered that sclorch. I just wondered if you could give me any reason why. Like the difference in how psilocin and DMT affect the brain - apart from the smoked/orally route affecting how long it takes to get to the brain and be eliminated by the body.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2223448 -

im not the chemist here, but it seems neither both of you seems to understand the true answer to the question in what way psilocybin and dmt differ/are similar. So i see just 2 guys, hating each others guts, trying to slay one another on the formulation of statements and questions asked. But we really haven't got jack shit further on the actual subject, have we? :crazy:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: quemo]
    #2223467 -

Well, I'm quite satisfied to go with Strassmans idea of psilocin as orally active DMT. I don't see the problem with it. It seems to have got Sclorch all riled up for some reason and I can't really see why to be honest.

I don't hate old sclorch, he's allright :smile2:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2223469 -

Sclorch said:
Alex: Well, for the fourth time can you give us the difference in how DMT and orally active DMT affects the brain?

This is a loaded question, part of which I thought I made clear that I disagreed with.

from Erowid:



From these charts, it is quite clear that the effects are very different (and we're only talking about time, there are also the subjective effects that are much different). If the effects are this different, then how can one posit that the chemicals both work in the exact same manner? It's like saying that Tylenol and aspirin must work in the same manner because they both get rid of your headache, though one takes 15 minutes to kick in and the other takes 30 minutes.


they're so different because one is smoked and the other is taken orally. if dmt was taken orally it would be a nearly identical graph.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Adamist]
    #2223470 -

My theory: tryptamines, salvinorin and a variety of other drugs do many things to us. From my personal expirence if the proper setting us used they have the effect of freeing the mind from the constraints and limits we impose on ourselves through the combination of acceptance of the negatives existance as possible and an pervading fear of negative things happening. There are many ways to help restore oneself to ones orginal prowess. I myself am able to run 5-25% faster (i timed myself) both in sprints(never more than ~10%) and in long distances under the influence of ~3.5 grams of p. cubensis. I can see perfectly in the dark when i consume DMT brews or mushrooms. Maybe drugs help muster a cycle where our perceptions are greatly changed, and with proper mind and setting one can use this to help free oneself from ones perceptions of life (which can restrain one to a lesser or greater degree). Long hours of meditation or chi gung can also do this, with more permenant effects, some metaprogramming also yeilds similar results; than again some people develop a attitude helpful to this naturally.
Salvia and 5-meo-dmt are the only drugs thusfar that have taken me further than what is above mentioned, such molecules seem to induce my mind to totally shut down as it is overwhelmed by their power. Incredible expirences of astonishment, mystery, unity and trancendence happen in this state of mind, as it logically should. Furthermore I often come to, able to understand communication, but unable to fashion words much less sentences; my senses jumbled and the interconnected thoughts reffered to here as 'my self' shattered. There is great danger in these substances, then can make your insane and dumb along with other things with heavy use. Another effect, b/c we not only hold on to negative but postive, is that we are caught in the past and because of our fears and likes seek to divine the future through expirence and science in the modern world, and god knows the full extent of things used in the past. Than again its just about impossible for a subject to objectify, than again one, who concludes i am a subject, conclusions are not infinite and thus are subject to change and may not even be true in the first place, much less in an absolute sense.
also reading in the first page of post(although omitting the rest for reasons which can be explained if anyone cares) i must clarify that objective or objectively, in being used as an adj(or is it an adv) in regards to POV, means uninfluenced by station in any manner.


--------------------
... i usually dont believe that words can bring one to enlightenment, so officially i am writing this for my own personal entertainment

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2226440 -

"I just wondered if you could give me any reason why."

man I've done both numerous times, numerous methods of consumption, and I will say that munching shrooms produces a different trip than taking orally-active DMT.

A different trip would mean a different THING, a different EXPERIENCE, which makes the substances DIFFERENT. If they weren't different, they'd be the same molecule.

From experience, once again, I tell you that dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (Psilocybin) are different! All you have to do is try them and you'll know this.

Just as 5-meo-DMT is different from just DMT, even though they plug into the same receptors, I guess they dance differently with said receptors, creating different percieved experiences.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2226794 -

i agree that 5-meo is greatly diffrent from dmt taken orally; i never said that any of the above have the exact same effect. the feeling i get in my body when i smoke toad venom(which also contains bufotine(??) and is not the same, but very similar to pure 5-meo but not the same) is similar in that it feels like something is under my skin. However 5-meo feels more like jelly crystalizing, whereas salvia is more of a metallic robotic yet light fluffy feeling. concering DMT brews compared with psilocybin; i find the nausea the DMT brew creates, combined with the MAOI to make the trip much less pleasant, it seems to me this is a chief factor in making the trip diffrent. I can almost plot a graph which perfectly shows the upward curve with bad trips and bad taste as the two factors. This could be due to my own personal system, which i believe is a influential force when choosing what drug to do, if any) For some reason shrooms go down easy with me, and things go more smoothly, unless i take too many(which is very easy) than i take a ride along the brink of insanity for ~4 hours. I have done both DMT brews and shrooms alone as well as taking light doses simultaniously, i find this to define the trip's seperation well. DMT brews are more visual for myself, more like LSD(although LSD visuals are more storybook like (like DMT)at other times they also can be very much like salvia imposed in a light and fleeeting sense, very involved with the progression of time, and robotic as well), but without the intolerable and almost everpresent ringing feel. Concering mind they are similar but i find light doses of mushrooms to be light pleasant and relaxing, which yeilds itself well to energetic cultivation. Whereas DMT is more suited for friendly gatherings of bonding, which for some reason make it easier to drink the stuff on me (i think its my friend's who drink attitude about his stomach)


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... i usually dont believe that words can bring one to enlightenment, so officially i am writing this for my own personal entertainment

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2227377 -

and I will say that munching shrooms produces a different trip than taking orally-active DMT.

What are you taking to make the DMT active? Think that might be having an effect on the trip?

Terence Mckenna said ayahuasca took you to the same place as smoked DMT but for 4 hours. He also said Shrooms take you to the same place as smoked DMT.

All you have to do is try them and you'll know this

I have tried them. I thought they took you to pretty much the same place. No trip is ever exactly the same - even shroom trips can vary massively.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2227440 -

I thought Terrence was talking about the 2 drugs having a similar effect on language by saying that they took you to the same place. They both have the capabilities of showing one the 'Logos'. Ive studied his work for a few years now and Im pretty sure thats what he was trying to get across.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2227507 -

"Terence Mckenna said ayahuasca took you to the same place as smoked DMT but for 4 hours" Meaning the rue didn't effect my trip if it didn't effect his..

"He also said Shrooms take you to the same place as smoked DMT"
I say they don't.. maybe I'm too inexperienced :rocket: :nut:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: lateralus]
    #2227818 -

lateralus said:
I thought Terrence was talking about the 2 drugs having a similar effect on language by saying that they took you to the same place. They both have the capabilities of showing one the 'Logos'. Ive studied his work for a few years now and Im pretty sure thats what he was trying to get across.


I came to the similar conclusion.


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Strumpling]
    #8472351 -

This was the only theroy I pieced together...


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8472170/an/0/page/0

Like I said, I may be way off, but it made sense in my sober mind.

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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: JapaneseEmpress]
    #8472918 -

Time Travel??


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