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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2222861 - 01/06/04 11:01 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think sclorch would be up for a trip together - by the sound of it, on his part at least,  "This time it's personal.." :smile2:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222896 - 01/06/04 11:13 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I would bet you $1500 that sclorch would trip with you.  :lol:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2222931 - 01/06/04 11:30 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Sure, as long as he didn't hit me with a "Strassman didn't say that" when we were peaking.. :smile2:

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222939 - 01/06/04 11:34 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Gawd

What you're trying to do is make this:
So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking tylenol make it a different drug because it takes longer to reach your brain?
equivalent to this:
So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking aspirin make it a different drug because it takes longer to reach your brain?

You can't just do that and pretend not to notice the explicit difference.
Once again,
Me: Psiloc(yb)in is NOT equivalent to DMT.
Similar? Yes, but Strassman's statement should be viewed more like a rule of thumb rather than a biological fact.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222945 - 01/06/04 11:35 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Sure, as long as he didn't hit me with a "Strassman didn't say that" when we were peaking.. :smile2:



:lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222963 - 01/06/04 11:44 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking tylenol

No, we're not on the same page here sclorch. You're trying to compare two different drugs here whereas Strassman calls psilocin orally active DMT. A direct comparison. I've never heard any expert call tylenol "orally active aspirin".

Psiloc(yb)in is NOT equivalent to DMT

But in structure and effects on the brain it's as close to DMT as makes no difference, which is what I said in the first place. DMT may be more intense and last for a shorter time when smoked - in the same way crack is more intense and briefer than cocaine, but it's still cocaine at the end of the day.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222985 - 01/06/04 11:55 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

But what the highly captive audience (of two) really wants to know is: is smoked sclorch equivalent to injected Alex123...  :nut:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222998 - 01/06/04 11:59 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So does taking aspirin orally as opposed to injecting or smoking tylenol

No, we're not on the same page here sclorch. You're trying to compare two different drugs here whereas Strassman calls psilocin orally active DMT. A direct comparison. I've never heard any expert call tylenol "orally active aspirin".



Okay, this is what I've been waiting for...
You did read this "Strassman's statement should be viewed more like a rule of thumb rather than a biological fact," right?

I tell you what, if you honestly believe that Strassman thinks that psiloc(yb)in IS orally-active DMT, then I'm going to flat out state that Strassman is WRONG.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2223025 - 01/06/04 12:10 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lets just lump every myth together and roll it into one big ball

...And say that their sum, due to the partial differentiation of each myth respectively, can be re-integrated back  into the Universal Story..

To think that each strange perspective is a uniquely permutated- relative from one's own vantage point -piece of the Chaotic Puzzle's Vision... 

That's insanity !  :lipsrsealed:

:lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2223344 - 01/06/04 02:01 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I tell you what, if you honestly believe that Strassman thinks that psiloc(yb)in IS orally-active DMT, then I'm going to flat out state that Strassman is WRONG.

Yeah, i gathered that sclorch. I just wondered if you could give me any reason why. Like the difference in how psilocin and DMT affect the brain - apart from the smoked/orally route affecting how long it takes to get to the brain and be eliminated by the body.

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Offlinequemo
dontknowitall

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 137
Loc: worldcitizen
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2223448 - 01/06/04 02:31 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

im not the chemist here, but it seems neither both of you seems to understand the true answer to the question in what way psilocybin and dmt differ/are similar. So i see just 2 guys, hating each others guts, trying to slay one another on the formulation of statements and questions asked. But we really haven't got jack shit further on the actual subject, have we? :crazy:

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: quemo]
    #2223467 - 01/06/04 02:39 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Well, I'm quite satisfied to go with Strassmans idea of psilocin as orally active DMT. I don't see the problem with it. It seems to have got Sclorch all riled up for some reason and I can't really see why to be honest.

I don't hate old sclorch, he's allright :smile2:

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OfflineInfrared
sleeping
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 12,988
Loc: Chicago, USA
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2223469 - 01/06/04 02:40 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Alex: Well, for the fourth time can you give us the difference in how DMT and orally active DMT affects the brain?

This is a loaded question, part of which I thought I made clear that I disagreed with.

from Erowid:



From these charts, it is quite clear that the effects are very different (and we're only talking about time, there are also the subjective effects that are much different). If the effects are this different, then how can one posit that the chemicals both work in the exact same manner? It's like saying that Tylenol and aspirin must work in the same manner because they both get rid of your headache, though one takes 15 minutes to kick in and the other takes 30 minutes.




they're so different because one is smoked and the other is taken orally. if dmt was taken orally it would be a nearly identical graph.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Invisibletehbuttermaid
lord
Registered: 12/22/03
Posts: 4
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Adamist]
    #2223470 - 01/06/04 02:41 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

My theory: tryptamines, salvinorin and a variety of other drugs do many things to us. From my personal expirence if the proper setting us used they have the effect of freeing the mind from the constraints and limits we impose on ourselves through the combination of acceptance of the negatives existance as possible and an pervading fear of negative things happening. There are many ways to help restore oneself to ones orginal prowess. I myself am able to run 5-25% faster (i timed myself) both in sprints(never more than ~10%) and in long distances under the influence of ~3.5 grams of p. cubensis. I can see perfectly in the dark when i consume DMT brews or mushrooms. Maybe drugs help muster a cycle where our perceptions are greatly changed, and with proper mind and setting one can use this to help free oneself from ones perceptions of life (which can restrain one to a lesser or greater degree). Long hours of meditation or chi gung can also do this, with more permenant effects, some metaprogramming also yeilds similar results; than again some people develop a attitude helpful to this naturally.
Salvia and 5-meo-dmt are the only drugs thusfar that have taken me further than what is above mentioned, such molecules seem to induce my mind to totally shut down as it is overwhelmed by their power. Incredible expirences of astonishment, mystery, unity and trancendence happen in this state of mind, as it logically should. Furthermore I often come to, able to understand communication, but unable to fashion words much less sentences; my senses jumbled and the interconnected thoughts reffered to here as 'my self' shattered. There is great danger in these substances, then can make your insane and dumb along with other things with heavy use. Another effect, b/c we not only hold on to negative but postive, is that we are caught in the past and because of our fears and likes seek to divine the future through expirence and science in the modern world, and god knows the full extent of things used in the past. Than again its just about impossible for a subject to objectify, than again one, who concludes i am a subject, conclusions are not infinite and thus are subject to change and may not even be true in the first place, much less in an absolute sense.
also reading in the first page of post(although omitting the rest for reasons which can be explained if anyone cares) i must clarify that objective or objectively, in being used as an adj(or is it an adv) in regards to POV, means uninfluenced by station in any manner.


--------------------
... i usually dont believe that words can bring one to enlightenment, so officially i am writing this for my own personal entertainment

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2226440 - 01/07/04 04:13 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"I just wondered if you could give me any reason why."

man I've done both numerous times, numerous methods of consumption, and I will say that munching shrooms produces a different trip than taking orally-active DMT.

A different trip would mean a different THING, a different EXPERIENCE, which makes the substances DIFFERENT. If they weren't different, they'd be the same molecule.

From experience, once again, I tell you that dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (Psilocybin) are different! All you have to do is try them and you'll know this.

Just as 5-meo-DMT is different from just DMT, even though they plug into the same receptors, I guess they dance differently with said receptors, creating different percieved experiences.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Invisibletehbuttermaid
lord
Registered: 12/22/03
Posts: 4
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2226794 - 01/07/04 06:49 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

i agree that 5-meo is greatly diffrent from dmt taken orally; i never said that any of the above have the exact same effect. the feeling i get in my body when i smoke toad venom(which also contains bufotine(??) and is not the same, but very similar to pure 5-meo but not the same) is similar in that it feels like something is under my skin. However 5-meo feels more like jelly crystalizing, whereas salvia is more of a metallic robotic yet light fluffy feeling. concering DMT brews compared with psilocybin; i find the nausea the DMT brew creates, combined with the MAOI to make the trip much less pleasant, it seems to me this is a chief factor in making the trip diffrent. I can almost plot a graph which perfectly shows the upward curve with bad trips and bad taste as the two factors. This could be due to my own personal system, which i believe is a influential force when choosing what drug to do, if any) For some reason shrooms go down easy with me, and things go more smoothly, unless i take too many(which is very easy) than i take a ride along the brink of insanity for ~4 hours. I have done both DMT brews and shrooms alone as well as taking light doses simultaniously, i find this to define the trip's seperation well. DMT brews are more visual for myself, more like LSD(although LSD visuals are more storybook like (like DMT)at other times they also can be very much like salvia imposed in a light and fleeeting sense, very involved with the progression of time, and robotic as well), but without the intolerable and almost everpresent ringing feel. Concering mind they are similar but i find light doses of mushrooms to be light pleasant and relaxing, which yeilds itself well to energetic cultivation. Whereas DMT is more suited for friendly gatherings of bonding, which for some reason make it easier to drink the stuff on me (i think its my friend's who drink attitude about his stomach)


--------------------
... i usually dont believe that words can bring one to enlightenment, so officially i am writing this for my own personal entertainment

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2227377 - 01/08/04 02:11 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

and I will say that munching shrooms produces a different trip than taking orally-active DMT.

What are you taking to make the DMT active? Think that might be having an effect on the trip?

Terence Mckenna said ayahuasca took you to the same place as smoked DMT but for 4 hours. He also said Shrooms take you to the same place as smoked DMT.

All you have to do is try them and you'll know this

I have tried them. I thought they took you to pretty much the same place. No trip is ever exactly the same - even shroom trips can vary massively.

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Offlinelateralus
member
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 126
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2227440 - 01/08/04 02:49 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I thought Terrence was talking about the 2 drugs having a similar effect on language by saying that they took you to the same place. They both have the capabilities of showing one the 'Logos'. Ive studied his work for a few years now and Im pretty sure thats what he was trying to get across.

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2227507 - 01/08/04 04:02 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

"Terence Mckenna said ayahuasca took you to the same place as smoked DMT but for 4 hours" Meaning the rue didn't effect my trip if it didn't effect his..

"He also said Shrooms take you to the same place as smoked DMT"
I say they don't.. maybe I'm too inexperienced :rocket: :nut:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleNariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 804
Loc: USA
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: lateralus]
    #2227818 - 01/08/04 09:26 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lateralus said:
I thought Terrence was talking about the 2 drugs having a similar effect on language by saying that they took you to the same place. They both have the capabilities of showing one the 'Logos'. Ive studied his work for a few years now and Im pretty sure thats what he was trying to get across.




I came to the similar conclusion.


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

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