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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


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The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature
    #2681279 - 05/15/04 05:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well I have came too a theory that most psychoactive compounds are part of the plant/fungi evolution coarse.

Some of these come too mind if you could find psychoactive entheogens on an alien world.

DMT - Contained in animals/plants/fungi
5-MeO-DMT - Contained in animals/plants/fungi
5-OH-DMT - Contained in animals/plants/fungi
4-OH-DMT - Contained in fungi
Ergot alkaloids - Contained in fungi/plants
Mescaline - Contained in plants
Ibogaine alkaloids - Contained in plants
Tropane alkaloids - Contained in plants
MAOI-As - Contained in plants


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2681346 - 05/15/04 06:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure I really understand what you mean..but assuming you are suggesting that alien worlds may have naturally occuring psychedelic compounds in whatever sorts of species their 'world' may sustain, as we do..sure, why not?

McKenna for one has entertained the possibility that the mushrooms may actually be 'alien' in some sense.. It has been said that Psilocybin has a unique molecular structure, that hasn't been found to occur anywhere else in nature.  From a certain perspective, this could suggest that that species of fungi, may not have evolved along side with the rest of nature here on this planet.. I mean..yeah, this may seem like a far fetched idea..but considering spores are able to survive in space...

:shrug:


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: ekomstop]
    #2681695 - 05/15/04 11:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"McKenna for one has entertained the possibility that the mushrooms may actually be 'alien' in some sense"

Ah yes and Mckenna is a great authority on the subject.. after all, he wrote a book.

"yeah, this may seem like a far fetched idea..but considering spores are able to survive in space.."

Oh can they now? Please link to the scientific study please. A quote from terence saying "The spores are deep purple" does not count.

People around here keep bringing up this stuff terence said forgetting that the information he had was extremely dated. When he was saying this, there were only a few known magic mushroom species. nobody knew there were so many like we do now. There are magic mushrooms with spores coloured other than purple. Pan cyans for example, have black spores, which means that according to terence's theory they couldn't have survived outer space which means they are terrestrial, which pokes a big hole in his whole ridiculous theory. He didn't take his stuff seriously so why should you?


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien na [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2681768 - 05/15/04 11:40 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

chill out mixa- it's just some ideas. It's cool and all to not agree with people, but it seems like you are an ass about it everytime!


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien na [Re: NariusFractal]
    #2682826 - 05/15/04 05:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, YOU CHILL OUT I'M FINE YOU FDIF SHL:G SHUT UUUUUP


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien na [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2682834 - 05/15/04 05:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Lets keep the conversation on topic, guys....and the topic is not your opinion of eachother :wink:


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Reason searched and seized


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien na [Re: trendal]
    #2682844 - 05/15/04 05:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I AM trying to keep it on topic I'M JUST HAVING A CRAZY HALLUCINATION ATTACK DF DS FSD:LGHSD:L

:L


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2682852 - 05/15/04 05:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure if I understand what you are getting at here...but here's my take on it:

Tryptamine chemicals are widespread throughout nature. All life forms synthesize chemicals for various usages (biology is an abstracted form of chemistry, remember?). Certain families of chemicals seem to come up more often than others, one of these being tryptamines.

Humans use a tryptamine chemical very similar to hallucinogenic ones for brain function: serotonin. If we have our own tryptamines...it stands to reason that other life forms would have their own tryptamines...and they do (ie: psilocybin in fungi).

Now of course most chemicals in a "family" have very similar structure and composition. Substituting one chemical for another does not result in a complete loss of function....only an altered form of function. For example, taking a dose of psilocybin allows your brain to "substitute" it for serotonin. Psilocybin is NOT the same chemical as serotonin, however, so of course it will result in altered functioning of the serotonin system. This apparently results in the "trip".

I see nothing remarkable in all this. Tryptamines are widespread throughout Life because they are a natural result of Life. Tryptamines not usually found in man (or only in trace ammounts) will of course cause altered functioning when taken in (relatively) large quantities by man.


Here's a side thought: if you gave serotonin to some fungi...does the fungi "trip"? :wink:


--------------------
The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized


BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: trendal]
    #2682897 - 05/15/04 05:27 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Substituting one chemical for another does not result in a complete loss of function....only an altered form of function.

I don't know the amount (and I am fairly certain that no one else does either), but only a small percentage of serotonin receptors are occupied by psilocybin during your average trip. We DO know that larger amounts can cause black-outs and total loss of motor function. I would imagine that a significant substitution would cause death, which I would not categorize as "an altered form of function", but as "a complete floss of function".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Swami]
    #2682910 - 05/15/04 05:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

A large "dose" of water will also cause "a complete floss of function" (sic) :smirk:

A large enough dose of anything will disrupt functioning to such a degree that death will result.

That is not what I'm talking about here, though. I'm talking about altered function as a result of a structurally similar chemical being used in place of the "proper" chemical. Also, the statement "only a small percentage of serotonin receptors are occupied by psilocybin during your average trip" is quite misleading because there is not just ONE type of serotonin receptor. There are several subtypes, each of which is for a different function. As psilocybin can only attach to one (maybe two) of these sub-receptors, it would be much better to look at how many of these specific receptors have psilocybin bind to them during your average trip.


--------------------
The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized


BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: trendal]
    #2683099 - 05/15/04 06:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

A large "dose" of water will also cause "a complete floss of function" (sic)

I was cleaning my teeth at the time I posted...  :tongue:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Swami]
    #2683104 - 05/15/04 07:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

:lol:

Make sure you get those molars clean and squeaky :wink:


--------------------
The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized


BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2683739 - 05/15/04 09:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
Ah yes and Mckenna is a great authority on the subject.. after all, he wrote a book.




Whats with the McKenna bashing anyway..? I don't take all his ideas too seriously, but I can't ignore the possibility he may have been on the right track with some stuff..

Quote:

"yeah, this may seem like a far fetched idea..but considering spores are able to survive in space.."

Oh can they now? Please link to the scientific study please. A quote from terence saying "The spores are deep purple" does not count.




To tell you the truth, I forget where I heard about this..I think it might have been in school. In either case..here's a couple links coutesy of google.

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf042/sf042p11.htm

http://www.astrobiology.com/asc2002/abstract.html?ascid=70


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: ekomstop]
    #2684694 - 05/16/04 01:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good links, they do show how spores could travel between planets, you got me there, but it still leaves the issue of magic mushroom spores.. So it sounds like they COULD, but... Is a hallucinogenic mushroom so much more special than a hallucinogenic vine that we must seek another explanation for its presence than terrestrial evolution? If what you're seeking to do is convince me of that then I request more ground-shaking facts about the mushroom.

As for Mckenna bashing, I like him too, have read all his books, but.. I don't consider anything he says to "hold water" exactly. I believe his speculation serves an entirely different purpose than to transmit fact.


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2685146 - 05/16/04 03:21 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not out to try and convince anyone anything..I guess I'm just spreading ideas I thought others may find interesting, in hopes to stimulate discussion. (isn't that what most of us are doing here?)  Since you seem somewhat interested..I guess I'll try and elaborate a bit..

I wasn't really trying to imply that the mushroom was "so special" compared to other entheogens..In relation to the topic of this thread, one of the main reasons I mentioned the mushroom and not particularly the vines and other psychoactive plants I tried to explain in the first post..I think for this one I'll just take a quote out of one of Terence's lectures for convenience..  :lazy:

"Psilocybin is: 0-Phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-Dimethyltryptamine

Psilocybin is the only 4 phosphorylated substituted indol in nature!

If you were to search for exterrestrial tampering with the biome of this planet, what one might look for is a unique compound, occuring in one life form..and no other.  This phosphorus group is unique, and can be considered a good candadate for a position such as an extra terrestrial thumbprint, if such a thumbprint exists here on our planet.  Perhaps it can be considered the extra terrestrial itself?"

I am not trying to imply that this or any view is 100% accurate..nor can I say I have much if any raw convincing evidence for it.  It's just one of the many ideas I have found interesting, and thought it might have it's place in this thread. :mushroom2:


Edited by ekomstop (05/16/04 07:18 AM)


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2685241 - 05/16/04 03:46 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I can see where your comming from regarding your opinions on Mckenna's ideas and such..while I can't say I disagree, I gotta say it almost seems like it's become a trend to immediately disregard his views as nonsense.. :thumbdown: :shrug:

Quote:

I believe his speculation serves an entirely different purpose than to transmit fact.




Definitely a possibility.  Though I wouldnt automatically assume there's no way he could have been headed in the right direction with some of his stuff..


Edited by ekomstop (05/16/04 03:52 AM)


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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien na [Re: ekomstop]
    #2685279 - 05/16/04 03:52 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well then Claviceps (ergot) and its alkaloids might be also extra terrestrial for planet Earth.


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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien na [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2690017 - 05/17/04 04:46 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Precious chemicals indeed.

Lets just pretend that alien species are expanding the mind with these entheogens.

Just a thought.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: ekomstop]
    #2690439 - 05/17/04 10:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ekomstomp,

"Psilocybin is the only 4 phosphorylated substituted indol in nature!"
interesting, but let's not pretend we've searched every species for these chemicals.

You want a real alien footprint?


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: The aspect of natural psychoactive chemicals in alien nature [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2693117 - 05/17/04 10:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
Ekomstomp,




*ekomstop!!  :lol:  ...not that it really matters, but a few people have also added in that extra "m" for some reason..read it backwards!  :wink:

Quote:

"Psilocybin is the only 4 phosphorylated substituted indol in nature!"
interesting, but let's not pretend we've searched every species for these chemicals.




I agree..those were Terence's words I was quoting..but it probably would have been better to say something like: "Psilocybin is the only 4 phosphorylated substituted indol that has been found in nature."


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