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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #732419 - 07/08/02 07:09 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Hey, hey leave Sammy out of this.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: ]
    #732476 - 07/08/02 07:26 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Yes swami dear


Onto other matters:

Evolving said:
By your logic Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide should work the same in the human body. This is not true.

The state reached after taking psilocybin after 2-3 hours is indistinguishable from that of DMT. Terence Mckenna said that. Pray explain how your brain reaches exactly the same state if psilocybin and DMT don't work on the same brain receptors..


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #732522 - 07/08/02 07:41 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"The state reached after taking psilocybin after 2-3 hours is indistinguishable from that of DMT. Terence Mckenna said that. Pray explain how your brain reaches exactly the same state if psilocybin and DMT don't work on the same brain receptors.."

You do realize that you're using someone else's anecdotal evidence as the backbone of your argument, don't you?
Besides... Terrance is dead wrong. His main concern is a book sale, not science (I would think neurology is the field of interest here). Sometimes people are pioneers in one aspect and complete dipshits in other aspects. Think what you will, but know that when its in the public domain... you're fair game.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #732733 - 07/08/02 11:39 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Let's examine the shifting sands of Alex's arguments somewhat paraphrased:

1. Berates me for not having read a text to which he can provide no reference.
Nuff said.

2. Only visions induced by chemicals endogenous to the human body have merit.
Of course, psilocybin is NOT endogenous to the human body. But he contradicts his own argument! Then he shifts into third gear with:

3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Again, not true. So another tactic is needed.

4. The mind-state achieved by these two different compounds is identical.
Not even close.

And finally, of course the ad hominem must be thrown in when the debater has painted himself into a corner. The last straw of a weak mind.

What is truly pathetic is that the other DMT/Alien proponents are silent on this (and much more serious issues in other threads). Can't put down one of their brethren. And we wonder why the Catholic Church covers up for predatory priests. The reason is simple: Believers are NOT interested in the truth, but in reinforcing their shaky system lest it crumbles like a house of cards.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSterile
mushroom lover
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Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,541
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #732742 - 07/09/02 12:03 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

It is very difficult to make philosophical thoughts and discussions in such a poor language as English, because its structure is incomplete and secondary. Thats the main reason for THOUSANDS of Greek words within the English vocabulary and the use of many words used to describe several things/situations in English.
A slight investigation of the Greek vocabulary, will reveal that not only there are specific words for ANY possible situation that needs to be written/explained / talked about, but every single word is able to reveal the true meaning of it-self., just by analyzing the letters that form each word one by one.
For example the Greek letter Y (pronounced Ipsilon) is used in words when it wants to add the meaning of liquid collection and vertical direction to the ground (thats why the shape Y) the Greek word for water is Y-dor abd every word that has to do with water starts with Y like Ygrasia(=humidity)
The word "archetype" is also Greek.
This is the mother of all languages, very obviously, the word "Alien" in Greek (just as the rest of the words) can NOT be misunderstud and the meaning can NOT be explained wrong if one knows the true meaning of the word.
So the word Alien is a branch word (Exw-giinos=Outer-earthed) =out of earth. Now if we consider out of earth the above ,spiritual unknown as Terrence said (i cried while i read the post with his words before i read that it was his words!!) it is just a matter of subconsious reaction in front of something that we can not explain.
In this world we all have common,common seem the other worlds..... Terrence is an alien! lol
more fantastic Greek words: Psilokyvini=Psylocybin
Amanitas=Amanitas
manitari=Mushroom(!!)
Mouskimoli=Muscimol
Mykitas=Fungi
Mykites=Mycetes
Agariko=Toadstool

Psyxi=spiritual part=psyche
Theos=the one who can see/sight=God
Free your mind.
Mushrooms----------Near Death Experience
Dmt-------------------Near Death Experience
---Once, a shphere flyed above the 2D geometrical shape country.... "A CIRCLE ! A FLYING CIRCLE!!!" screamed Mr.square...


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind


"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



Edited by Sterile (07/09/02 12:16 AM)

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sterile]
    #732888 - 07/09/02 04:21 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

It is very difficult to make philosophical thoughts and discussions in such a poor language as English, because its structure is incomplete and secondary.

That's a new one... just when I think I've had a handle on all the bullshit, a new one comes along. Why don't you just communicate with us using mathematics? That would be much easier to follow.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #732911 - 07/09/02 04:43 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

1. Berates me for not having read a text to which he can provide no reference.
Nuff said.

So it's my fault that you're pig ignorant? Oh dear. Do some searching for Maria Sabina and read what you find you silly sausage.

2. Only visions induced by chemicals endogenous to the human body have merit.
Of course, psilocybin is NOT endogenous to the human body. But he contradicts his own argument! Then he shifts into third gear with:

Hang on, go back a gear. When did i say that? I asked why does the human brain produce these substances and why do they result in alien contact experiences. Not that they have "merit".

3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Again, not true.

Hang on again, not true according to who? Every researcher from Rick Strassman onwards says this is the case. Yet Swami, some guy full of wind and piss on an internet message board says it isn't. Yeah..we believe you...thousands wouldn't...

4. The mind-state achieved by these two different compounds is identical.
Not even close.

Once again, Terence Mckenna and his brother took more DMT and mushrooms than you ever have and knew a damn sight more about it. Rick Strassman has carried out research on DMT for years and written a book on it. He calls psilocybin "orally active DMT". That's good enough for me. Do you have any evidence for the things you say or do you just make them up as you go along?

And finally, of course the ad hominem must be thrown in when the debater has painted himself into a corner. The last straw of a weak mind.

At least i've got a mind


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #732962 - 07/09/02 05:25 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Holy shit are you out of line.

1. Berates me for not having read a text to which he can provide no reference.
Nuff said.
"So it's my fault that you're pig ignorant? Oh dear. Do some searching for Maria Sabina and read what you find you silly sausage."


Asking for a simple reference to refute you is ignorance?
Silly sausage???

3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Again, not true.

"Hang on again, not true according to who? Every researcher from Rick Strassman onwards says this is the case."


Every researcher, eh? You must have an extensive journal collection. I don't know how to explain this to you, but you're just fucking wrong. Take a look on www.erowid.org, even they say there's a difference. If it's a different drug and has different effects (DMT lasts 30 minutes, where psiloc(yb)in lasts 5-6 hours), then it works in a different way. I don't know if you know this, but there are several different types of serotonin receptors.

Strassman... could you give me a page number? Also, I DEFINITELY know that he stated that he had never taken any psychedelics (who knows the truth of this statement though). If this is true, then can we really take his word as law?

4. The mind-state achieved by these two different compounds is identical.
Not even close.
"Once again, Terence Mckenna and his brother took more DMT and mushrooms than you ever have and knew a damn sight more about it. Rick Strassman has carried out research on DMT for years and written a book on it. He calls psilocybin 'orally active DMT'. "


From personal experience and these weird things we call SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS (and papers and books and articles), there is plenty of research that explicitly states that "different drug = works different" applies to entheogens. There are so many links and references available on the subject, it is pretty much assumed that if you are posting in this forum... YOU HAVE A DECENT WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF ENTHEOGENS and how they work in your brain. I guess assumption is the mother of all fuckups... we fucked up and assumed that you actually research things before you post.

Do you have any evidence for the things you say or do you just make them up as you go along?
Now YOU'RE wanting evidence? This is too rich! Crack open a fucking book, bub.


And finally, of course the ad hominem must be thrown in when the debater has painted himself into a corner. The last straw of a weak mind.

"At least i've got a mind"


You remember that comeback from third grade, too?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
English vs Greek [Re: Sterile]
    #733034 - 07/09/02 06:33 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

some Greek words that are used on this board:

umm... philosophy, mathematics, physics, psychology, biology, anthropology, history, geography, mycology, music, graphology, trigonometry, sphere, circle, pentagon, hypothesis, drugs, ecstasy, pharmaceutical, toxic, logos, logic, entheogens, psychedelics, technology, ethnography, photography, plane, nootropics, narcotics, therapy, heresy, alpha & omega, spiral, phobia, Thanatos, Eros, Uranus, air, cosmos, atom, proton, photon, angel, demon, planet, disc, galaxy, star, system, ego, bible, Gaia, magic, mystic, esoterica, idea, sceptic, symbol, phallic, archaic, amoeba, euphoria, paranoia, myth, hero, android, politics, democracy, monarchy, anarchy, enigma, neuron, centre, maniac, fanatic, telepathy, fantasy, spores, magnet, pole.......

just the first few that come into my mind... need any more?

can you really hold a conversation about *anything* without using Greek words??

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #733106 - 07/09/02 07:03 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Strassman... could you give me a page number?

Page 37.

Now go read it you silly bastard.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #733113 - 07/09/02 07:07 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"(DMT lasts 30 minutes, where psiloc(yb)in lasts 5-6 hours), then it works in a different way. I don't know if you know this, but there are several different types of serotonin receptors."

Are you totally clueless or what? DMT lasts 30 minutes if you smoke it. You eat mushrooms which is why it takes longer for the effects to come on. Capish? If you drink DMT in ayahuasca it lasts 4-5 hours. Get a fucking clue would ya?

Once again, i recomend reading a few books before you write posts. Not just browsing erowid for 2 minutes and thinking you're the world expert. Invisible landscape and archaic revival by Mckenna for example where he says exactly what I'm saying.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (07/09/02 07:11 AM)

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OfflineSterile
mushroom lover
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Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,541
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #733315 - 07/09/02 08:38 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Dont get upset dear Sclorch, i didnt say that we can not communicate, i am just trying to make our communication *better* by revealing the true meaning of the world "Alien" in our mother language, when in the one you use now "Alien" means whatever you want it to mean.
It is not bad to learn new things you know


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind


"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2121531 - 11/19/03 12:08 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Note: I know this is some old shit, but I never got around to posting about Alex's "proof" on page 37.

Alex123: 3. Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brains' chemistry in exactly the same way.
Swami: Again, not true.
Alex123: Hang on again, not true according to who? Every researcher from Rick Strassman onwards says this is the case.
Sclorch: Strassman... could you give me a page number?
Alex123: Page 37.
Now go read it you silly bastard.



Okay... THIS is page 37 in its entirety from Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule:

"__When these mushrooms are ingested, the body removes a phosphorous atom from the psilocybin, converting it to psilocin.

[PICTURE OF A PSILOCIN MOLECULE]

___Psilocin differs from DMT by only one oxygen. I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as "orally active DMT."
___Another important tryptamine is 5-methoxy-DMT, or 5-MeO-DMT. It differs from DMT by the addition of only one methyl group and one oxygen.

[PICTURE OF A 5-methoxy-DMT MOLECULE]"


That's it, kids.
Nowhere on page 37 or in the rest of the book does Strassman state that "Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brain's chemistry in exactly the same way."

I suppose I'll chalk this one up to the infamous problem of reading comprehension.

----Sclorch Out----


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2219943 - 01/05/04 05:08 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Slow down there would ya old sclorch?

Strassman says:

I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as "orally active DMT."

You say:

Nowhere on page 37 or in the rest of the book does Strassman state that "Psilocybin is practically identical to DMT and effects the brain's chemistry in exactly the same way."

Strassman says it's "ORALLY ACTIVE DMT" for christ'sakes! Isn't that simple enough for you to grasp?

Are you trying to say that the effect on brain chemistry of orally active DMT is going to be vastly different to DMT? If so, I'm gonna have to chalk that one up to you talking through your hat again.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 months, 26 days
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Swami]
    #2220207 - 01/05/04 08:16 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

1)There is an undeniable similarity between the psilocybin molecule and the DMT molecule.

2)The experiences are similar, perhaps not identical but when you even out the time differences i.e DMT is a short sharp shock compared to the longer mushroom experience, there are similarities.

3)Many people have reported contact experiences after ingesting both these substances.


Can we all agree on this?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2220257 - 01/05/04 08:55 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Yep.

I remember Mckenna saying psilocybin takes you to the same place DMT does.

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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2220417 - 01/05/04 11:43 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

alex he's right. Rick doesn't say what you claim.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2220624 - 01/05/04 01:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Then explain the difference in effects on the brain between DMT and orally active DMT. I'd be really interested.

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OfflineInfrared
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Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 12,988
Loc: Chicago, USA
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Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2220657 - 01/05/04 01:33 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

im to lazy to read all this bickering. but what i think the thing that makes the most difference between dmt and 4-ho-dmt is the route of administration. 4-ho obviouly can only be taken orally, and USUALLY dmt is smoked. smoked n,n dmt is way way different than psiolocin. however when dmt is used with an maoi orally it becomes very very similar to a 4-ho-dmt experience. obviously they do not act on all of the same brain sites, even little chain additions do affect the chemicals action ( you have to be ignorant to dispute that fact). but overall 4-ho-dmt is very very closely related to n,n dmt so i dont see why they wouldnt use most of the same brain receptors.( MOST but not ALL)


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: DMT - Any theories? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2220671 - 01/05/04 01:41 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

PLEASE NOTE: This particular post was just a test.

Christ...
Okay, let me put this in bold for you... wait, you'll need color too...

NOWHERE ON PAGE 37 (the page YOU gave as a source) DOES STRASSMAN STATE (as you claim) "I like to think of psilocybin/psilocin as 'orally active DMT.'"

Please note that Strassman used the modifier "I like to think" in his statement, that is, IF Strassman ever said that in the book. I own and have read Strassman's book and I don't recall him ever saying any such thing. However, if you'd like to tell me the correct page number from which you obtained this Strassman quote, I'd gladly pull my book off the shelf.

Furthermore, even IF Strassman did indeed write that in his book, it DOES NOT mean that psiloc(yb)in is equivalent with DMT. This is not much different than me saying something like "I like to think that the stars are the angels' flashlights shining down on us." Are the stars actually seraphic mag-lites? NO!
Likewise, DMT is NOT orally-active psiloc(yb)in.

Edited by Sclorch (01/05/04 05:43 PM)

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