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Offlineurite4594
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Is existence deterministic?
    #4565534 - 08/22/05 03:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I would like to hear what some of you think about this. Do you believe our world is deterministic, meaning all is pre decided based on natural laws, or not? Do we really have free will? I've thought about this alot and have been trying to sort it out. Are all of the happenings in this universe merely to balance out an equation. I do believe that statement, but that does not mean I don't believe in free will. I believe that we have to power to influence how things end up reaching equilibrium. For instance, if the phone rings we can choose to answer it or we can choose not to. If we choose the latter, more processes and steps must be taken to reach equilibrium. What do you guys think about this?


--------------------
"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

"Do not dwell on the past, do not fear the future. Appreciate now, after all, that's all you truly ever have."


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: urite4594]
    #4565613 - 08/22/05 03:36 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Who are we?

We are not separate from our environment anymore than anything else; we are simply part of the environment affecting the rest of the environment. Being part of the environment, we follow natural laws like everything else.

The difference being we have an organic brain (which also follows natural laws) that gives us the illusion of free will. But what, then, is free will? The ability to decide between one choice of action and another? There's no way to test this; in the end, you'll always choose one action in your linear timeline, so you can't test free will by going back in time and doing anything else. That gives away the testability factor of free will, so now we argue it on pure logic.

But logic is not on free will's side; if you believe in causality, then every effect has a cause. Our thoughts, for example, could be seen to be effects, having a long strain of causes, down to when we were first conceived and the genetics we were given, through the womb, through the actions and experiences we had as a child, up to this moment in time. We are simply the sum total of our past causes; this moment is our effect. With that in mind, how could there be free will? It's illogical, untestable and, purely by Occam's razor, could've been cut out long ago. What redeeming qualities does the argument for free will have that ensure its existence? Not many compatible with this universe according to my observations.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: Ravus]
    #4565718 - 08/22/05 04:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

but then, what if you could somehow stop seing this "cause-effect"? what if that is not real either? What if there is no continuing "time-line"

You sound so certaing that these things are "reality"

how do you know? is this something you have "observed" ?

I observe "free-will" everyday

don?t you? I find that extremely hard to believe.

I "observe" more free will than I "observe" time

free-will is something I feel and experience, every moment

"time-line" is just something that is there when I think about it

actually, when I think about it, I feel like "time-line" is just sort of a concept I have invented to make life simpler and easier to "comprehend" ... and if I really think about it, then I realize that this concept of time, actually makes me fool myself into thinking that i comprehend

If I think about it, I really don?t know what time is
If I think about it, I really don?t understand causality

I say I do, everyday, but honestly

both make no sense to me, logically that is




maybe it ends here :


do you believe in free will or not


if you don?t ... then what are you doing here? what is your pleasure, what is your feeling of life? Do you enjoy life? Do you not? .. is it even relevant to ask?

time is not real ... there is no causality or logic ... unfortunately, this is not something that anyone will ever be able to "understand"

serioously, I mean it : noone will ever understand this. Noone. including me.

Its impossible you understand, because it is not logic, it makes no sense

usually, it is much easier to understand things that are logic or make sense

right?

this is the essense of the problem : we have defined what is logic and what is sense

so, in order to see what is really real, we need to take away the idea of "logic" and sense



you see?



If you want to learn something new ... discover something new .. the nwhat is the most stupid thing you can do?


isnt that saying in advance "I allready know"

??

Im just asking, because I have noticed that this is what I do myself ...


I say "I would like to discover this"


but really, I would not like to discover it, I would just like to have my own ideas coinfirmed

here is a theory that sucks :

free will is part of what is left when you discard everything that is not true


but it is not easy to do I guess .... I don?t know, it might be different for someone else

My own guess is, that it is impossible, and you will maybe find the solution once you realize that it is impossible

My own guess is that this is in fact, the essense of the mystery of life and the universe and God and free will and truth and whatever


but ofcourse, its not something that I know shit about

why not try it out?



examine "time" .... what it is, what you really know about it


I don?t mean "what you have read about it" ... or what they told you in school ..... but examine it yourself

find out whether it is there, and whether you understand it or know anything about it


do the same with "causality" and the so-called "natural-laws" og "logic"


what are these things really?


do you know? do you see it?


Edited by varthdader (08/22/05 04:46 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: VarthDader]
    #4565814 - 08/22/05 05:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

if you don?t ... then what are you doing here?

Did you NOT read his post before responding? He has no choice, but to be here.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: Swami]
    #4565826 - 08/22/05 05:56 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

oh I meant more in the sense "what are you doing here asking this question"

Its good, I think ... the asking the question shows some doubt in ones own arguments (I think ?) ... Even though this kind of materialistic arguments for "non-free-will" sometimes seem to be very convincing ...

I like doubt ..., doubt is the beginning of really inquiering ? Isn?t it?


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: VarthDader]
    #4565831 - 08/22/05 06:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I guess this is what Im thinking :


If you know something to be true, then there is no point in questioning it or asking someone about it, is there?

So when you question something, you are basically saying : I don?t know if this is true

right?


if you knew it to be true, you would not question or doubt it


would you?



Edited by varthdader (08/22/05 06:20 AM)


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Offlineantoverlord
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: urite4594]
    #4565896 - 08/22/05 08:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The universe started from a gravitational singularity with an infinite range of starting values that cannot be explained by our current understanding of physics. The argument for determinism is that eventually the universe formed in a way that our understanding of physics can determine. Everything acts in an orderly, deterministic way, and therefore everything in our linear timeline is entirely deterministic. This includes our brains and all the meaningless decisions we make on a day to day basis.

I still don't buy it... not sure why. The argument for determinism is completely logical. Only dreaded faith can chip away at it. How did the universe start. Something about lots of energy and density... did two atoms or quarks or quasars or donkeys collide with one another and start this mess? Encoded in this beginning were the laws of physics that determined every single thing.. ever.. end of story.

I try to view my concept of free will as an illusion; break it down and replace it with the logic of the universe. I can't break free... maybe I just haven't lost my sense of wonder. Maybe it's a sign of existential immaturity, or maybe it's just the fucking deterministic path I've had no choice over. It doesn't seem completely illogical to me that we may have broken free from determinism, even though you (referring to nobody particular) may view this as me openly embracing an obvious illusion.

A friend of mine just took the MCAT, the sum of his deterministic life up to this point. To celebrate this, another friend threw a party at his house. My roommate and I went to this party. On the drive home I tossed on an old punk CD I knew my roommate would like. He did like it, so I brought it upstairs and blasted it in our apartment. Security guards came and I determined they were cool and asked if they wanted to blaze. I ran out of weed and showed them a great and underutilized resin-smoking technique that involves a wire hanger, a gas stove, and a distinct lack of fiending shame. They may go on in their lives and show this technique to other people... sweet. Then I logged on here and told this story for no reason. Yet this was clearly all the result of a deterministic world at work. I agree... I can't see myself doing anything I did today in any other way given the circumstances. And I still believe in free will... how silly.

Doesn't the big-bang-evolution-deterministic viewpoint at least validate Eastern philosophy? If everything was determined and encoded in some singularity, we really are all one, right? Me, you, the tree outside my window, and the particle of dark matter on the other side of the universe. Does this mean free will both exists and does not exist? At the very least, the illusion of free will is no different than the illusion of the illusion of free will. Or the illusion of the illusion of the. . . . . .

When I was younger (and more indoctrinated on God/Heaven), my personal interpretation of heaven involved the ability to re-live any moment of history from any perspective (becoming the infinite?). It'd be cool to float over historic battles and stuff, but really I want to see that one time the girl I had a crush on in high school threw her backpack at her boyfriend in geometry class and knocked him out of his desk. Her view, his view, the teacher's view... the backpack's view? Now that is the way to spend infinity, or so I thought.

Now, I just hope that when I die and join the Infinity/One/Void/Tao/God/Heaven/Afterlife/Non-Existent Illusion, that I can view a blooper reel of all the crazy bastards who have totally wigged out and flailed around spastically in a futile attempt to discount the arguments against free will. Fools! I'm going to be laughing at all of you from my grave.

I realize this post comes entirely from an emotional perspective, instead of philosophical. So rip apart at will, I understand that you have no choice in the matter.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: antoverlord]
    #4565904 - 08/22/05 08:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

maybe its determined that its not all determined (except ofcourse the things that are obiously determined or non-determined)
?


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Offlineantoverlord
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: VarthDader]
    #4565919 - 08/22/05 08:36 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sure there's a logical fallacy in there somewhere. How could deterministic and non-deterministic elements of the universe co-exist? Suppose that the absolute state of the universe could be defined at point A and point B. If there is an infinite set of causes forming from the circumstances at point A that all lead to the next determined event/effect at point B... what the hell does that mean?

Is it still free will if your freely chosen causes have no impact on the eventual effect?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: urite4594]
    #4565920 - 08/22/05 08:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

urite4594 said:
I would like to hear what some of you think about this. Do you believe our world is deterministic, meaning all is pre decided based on natural laws, or not?  Do we really have free will? I've thought about this alot and have been trying to sort it out. Are all of the happenings in this universe merely to balance out an equation. I do believe that statement, but that does not mean I don't believe in free will. I  believe that we have to power to influence how things end up reaching equilibrium. For instance, if the phone rings we can choose to answer it or we can choose not to. If we choose the latter, more processes and steps must be taken to reach equilibrium. What do you guys think about this?




I see the free will debate as one of the most pointless discussions to go on here. Ha ha.  :whacker: "Carry on my wayward son, the'll be peace when you are done"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: antoverlord]
    #4565931 - 08/22/05 08:56 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How could deterministic and non-deterministic elements of the universe co-exist?

I don?t know. Why couldn?t they?

I didn?t make the universe. (At least, not as far as I remember)

How can helium exist, it makes no sense to me?


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Offlineantoverlord
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: VarthDader]
    #4565936 - 08/22/05 09:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The next time I create the universe I'll make sure we communicate at length.

Just in case.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: antoverlord]
    #4565944 - 08/22/05 09:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

thanks, thats nice of you

by the way, I didn?t mean helium, I hope thats obvious, the rest is clear I think


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: antoverlord]
    #4566059 - 08/22/05 11:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How could deterministic and non-deterministic elements of the universe co-exist? Suppose that the absolute state of the universe could be defined at point A and point B. If there is an infinite set of causes forming from the circumstances at point A that all lead to the next determined event/effect at point B... what the hell does that mean?





Strictly in the realms of this universe, this is a possibility.

If quantum mechanics has completely random effects without determinism, then it the sum total of these random (seemingly non-deterministic) effects that make up the deterministic universe. However, if there is a multiverse, and every possible path that can be taken by quantum particles is taken in separate universes, then we live in a deterministic multiverse (as there's a finite number of paths, though by "finite" I mean 10^999... :wink:) while experiencing a random universe as we float through all the probabilities.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: VarthDader]
    #4566181 - 08/22/05 12:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

varthdader said:
I guess this is what Im thinking :


If you know something to be true, then there is no point in questioning it or asking someone about it, is there?

So when you question something, you are basically saying : I don?t know if this is true

right?


if you knew it to be true, you would not question or doubt it


would you?






Why not? To assume that, because you "know" something to be "true" it must in fact be True is arrogance at it's best.

Have you never been wrong before? To be wrong, by definition, you must have thought you were right...and then proven wrong.

I constantly question and re-question the things that I hold as True. I cannot see myself ever operating any differently. There is always the possibility that I am wrong, so I must re-check my conclusions as often as possible.

It's the only way to continue to be sure that something is True. Time does exist, even if it's hard to define :wink:


--------------------
BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: trendal]
    #4566232 - 08/22/05 01:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

cool ... I wish I was the one knowing  "the only way to continue to be sure something is true" 

... but I would settle for just knowing "the way to know something is true just once"  :smile:

I don?t know anything about these things really, I find I can?t really relate to these terms "universe - time - matter - spirit - soul -- god" and so on ... I don?t get it if I think about it ...
I really mean that .. I have no idea what these things or concepts really are...


so I always just feel very surprised when someone/anyone appearantly think/claim they understand something about the nature of these things ... And Im so curious, I can?t help asking them to enlighten me with some convincing knowledge on these subjects ... and ofcourse, also so curious that I can?t help asking them/checking whether these things are actually something they know or simply something the think they know ... usually its the latter ...

Im sorry if it came of as arrogant, that was really not the point .. I have nothing to be arrogant about really, since I dont even know whether the universe is determinstic or not

as far as I can see, it is both ... and it makes no sense Im told, so Im open to pretty much any suggestion you might have

I really don?t know anything about this. Do you?


Edited by varthdader (08/22/05 01:09 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: Swami]
    #4566458 - 08/22/05 02:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
if you don?t ... then what are you doing here?

Did you NOT read his post before responding? He has no choice, but to be here.




Swami, I know you were clarifying what Ravus was saying and that it doesn't mean that's what you believe or advocate as a fundamental truth.

If you do, I want to ask you something. You are big here on self reliance and self responsibility and not putting blame out there for the things we are the cause of.

Like how you say, "my words can't hurt you, you choose to feel hurt by them, take responsibility for the feelings you choose and quit blaming me."

Isn't saying "I am here because I have no choice to be" the sound of a victim-hood? Isn't it a form of differing responsibility of yourself as first cause unto something else, like, placing blame else where for ones being here?

If one were to say, "I am here because it is my choice to be here, isn't that an example of taking responsibility for ones self?

Even if nature put us here, any of us can kill ourselves. In that sense, we have chosen to remain alive here and our being alive today is the result of our choosing.

I'm wondering if you truly believe we are here because we have no choice but to be and why if you do?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566576 - 08/22/05 03:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It's odd that if people believe there's no true free will, suddenly we're being "forced" to be here and should collapse into a pile on the ground.

We are here because Darwinism developed the human species; we have the thoughts we do, including the thought of free will, because of causality, so our actions seem to be our own personal choice. How could it be any other way? There is no free will, in my opinion, because we are simply following the natural laws of the universe, and free will is not a natural law according to current knowledge. But we still think the same whether we have free will or not; the idea of responsibility is still there whether there's free will, and if you read this argument and then deny responsibility, that was just there also. But free will in and of itself is pointless, because everything will be developed first by Darwinism, and then activated by society and the environment anyway. Genetics and the environment are all there is.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: Ravus]
    #4566655 - 08/22/05 04:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

... we are simply following the natural laws of the universe, and free will is not a natural law according to current knowledge...Genetics and the environment are all there is

how do you know this?

How does it feel to know stuff like this?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is existence deterministic? [Re: VarthDader]
    #4566673 - 08/22/05 04:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Because we follow evidence. Is it possible that purple unicorns in a uranium-enriched base on Neptune are actually using remote controls to control our minds? Perhaps our free will comes from the decisions of these unicorns, as our free will is the unicorn's free will.

Evidence and simplicity are the answers to your question. I follow current evidence, because that's as far as we'll ever get; the evidence of the day is the most we have. We then make theories based on the evidence, and simplify the theories as much as possible until they only explain the evidence without having any excess parts. It's possible I'll be disproven once new evidence becomes available, but this is possible for any statement humans make and we shouldn't let it hinder our search for knowledge.

If all past scientists had simply conceded uncertainty because evidence "might" come along that contradicts them, we wouldn't be anything more than animals huddled inside a cold, damp cave, listening to the rain outside and wishing there was some way to create heat.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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