Home | Community | Message Board


Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles, CBD Topicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Does altruism exist?
    #1898786 - 09/09/03 05:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This is another one of those controversies that never ends....


I happen to think that once a certain threshold (don't ask me to draw the line... it's quite fuzzy) of consciousness is reached (due to the locus of selection's shift from genes to memes) altruism CAN exist. If not, then there is no such thing as compassion... as caring for someone can be reduced to "your morals compelled you to do it". This is an unsatisfactory explanation IMHO. Furthermore, if we follow this line of reductionism, we come to the conclusion that there is no choice... we are determined to act in an "altruistic" manner. As an advocate of free will and personal responsibility, the idea that compassion (and it's extreme version: altruism) is merely an issue of mental programming is sickening.



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1898805 - 09/09/03 05:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

nice one. I agree.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1899473 - 09/09/03 08:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well, some reductionists have defined altruism out of existence.

when you sacrifice your life to save another, they say you're only doing it for your own gratification, because it makes you "feel good" to follow your morals.

pity.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 11 days
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1899547 - 09/09/03 08:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
This is another one of those controversies that never ends....


I happen to think that once a certain threshold (don't ask me to draw the line... it's quite fuzzy) of consciousness is reached (due to the locus of selection's shift from genes to memes) altruism CAN exist. If not, then there is no such thing as compassion... as caring for someone can be reduced to "your morals compelled you to do it". This is an unsatisfactory explanation IMHO. Furthermore, if we follow this line of reductionism, we come to the conclusion that there is no choice... we are determined to act in an "altruistic" manner. As an advocate of free will and personal responsibility, the idea that compassion (and it's extreme version: altruism) is merely an issue of mental programming is sickening.






Very good thread sclorch!

I agree with what you say. There are times when decisions can be made outside of our normal thought processes.Decisions that can contradict our normal thought tendencies.The decisions that are made can even be considered noble or altruistic.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: sirreal]
    #1899759 - 09/09/03 09:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

altruism is seen in animals. certain ground hog species will scream very loud if a hawk is approaching, this almost always targets the hawks attention on the one that called out, and he is most likely to be lunch, but in the process, his family runs into their holes.

altruism is a product of evolution.

is that groundhog debating his own morality before he decides to scream? is he acting out of compassion?

i don't think so. the second he sees it, a biological element in his brain triggers, and hes a goner... (probably wishes he didn't after claws are in his side)

i know animal and human behavior are very different, but this same scenario is very similiar to humans.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1900128 - 09/09/03 10:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

people already choose whether to be compassionate or not. If it were in our own evolutionary conciosness to act out of compassion for the own necessity for the survival of our society/civilization... wouldnt that be a good benefit? I dont know if thats what you are saying, or if that idea for you is sickening... maybe a yes or no answer to that... or an explanation?

but now... i think people choose whether to be compassionate or not.. for whatever reason. Thats just each ones choice.


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1900665 - 09/10/03 01:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Man I have never heard of these labels before, and I researched them out, I think it's too much clutter here! reductionists, positivist, ethical egoism, and so on. look, help is help, regardless of the motive, the person who helps will enjoy doing it, the one recieving help will also be grateful. Selfish or not, the end result is the same is it not?
one time me and my buddy had this sort of conversation. he asked me why I help him out, and I told him that I thought a smile was worth more than gold. he then asked me why it was worth more than gold, and I was taken a back by his question. we both looked at each other and he was like, "heh nevermind, I know why" and smiles. but really, there has to be a reason? how about that he is my friend and that I actually DO care, and when he needs help I help him. Not because I feel it's my duty, or because I love myself more afterwards, but because I appreciate that he's there. I'm the type of person that likes the feeling of good vibes and when my firend's vibes are down, I like to try to raise them. why even question it?



--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #1900712 - 09/10/03 01:31 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

one time me and my buddy had this sort of conversation. he asked me why I help him out




I have seen interviews of people who have saved other people's lives at the risk of their own. (The classic example is when the hero in the movie is grasping the hands of the villain dangling from the cliff/skyscraper. Why??). When asked why they did that, they all get a funny look on their face and answer to the effect that, "If I allowed him to die, I would die as well."

That's really the essence of spirituality isn't it?
All boundaries are an illusion.Thou art That.

"I am He as you are He
as you are Me,
and We are All together...goo goo a choob."

-Thank you, Beatles. (I am the Walrus)


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Jellric]
    #1900779 - 09/10/03 01:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"That's really the essence of spirituality isn't it?
All boundaries are an illusion.Thou art That."

:thumbup:
 


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/31/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #1900866 - 09/10/03 02:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>> when you sacrifice your life to save another, they say you're only doing it for your own gratification, because it makes you "feel good" to follow your morals.

Anton LaVey pieced together this kind of hapless logical extension. It is a pervasive notion that sabotages one's pursuit of compassion.

Helping others for the lonely purpose of inflating one's self is to be "wisely selfish". It is selfishness undertaken in a way that benefits others. It is not the only manifestation of selflessness. There is selflessness that is powerfully motivated by a genuine concern for the happiness and wellbeing of others. This is the essence of altruism.

That compassion should be the result of careful calculation is a sad state of affairs indeed.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Ped]
    #1900882 - 09/10/03 02:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That compassion should be the result of careful calculation is a sad state of affairs indeed.

True.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,336
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 2 months, 11 days
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1901255 - 09/10/03 07:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

the idea that compassion (and it's extreme version: altruism) is merely an issue of mental programming is sickening.




Yes, it is sickening. That way, should you refer to all feelings as mentally programmed ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: MAIA]
    #1902211 - 09/10/03 02:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, it is sickening. That way, should you refer to all feelings as mentally programmed?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... can you patch up that grammar?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1904425 - 09/11/03 08:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If not, then there is no such thing as compassion... as caring for someone can be reduced to "your morals compelled you to do it".



I don't see any reductionism in "your morals compelled you to do it". Morals can include anything from stuffing as much food as possible into your mouth, to striving for the advancement of intelligent life in remote galaxies.

If a purpose is implanted in my mind, then of course I get satisfaction from fulfilling that purpose, regardless of what that purpose is. If the purpose is altruistic, then it's a matter of terminology whether this is "self-interest" or not. The "you" that has this interest is not quite the same "you" as the one that is acting on the desire to stuff food in your face. So the question if there is self-interest involved depends on who "you" are when you act.

Who are you?
Who, who, who, who?

--The Who



Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1906355 - 09/11/03 05:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If a purpose is implanted in my mind, then of course I get satisfaction from fulfilling that purpose, regardless of what that purpose is.

Well, this is basically the compatibilist's view.  Unfortunately for you, the compatibilist argument is a poor attempt at creating a gray area between free will and determinism.  The fact of the matter is that this is one of those cases where black and white ARE the only choices - you either have free will or you don't.  You can't have your cake and eat it too... at least in this case. :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 11 days
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1906382 - 09/11/03 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It seems to me that free will is simply realizing that you have more than one choice. How you go about making that choice really is not important.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1906625 - 09/11/03 07:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

the compatibilist argument is a poor attempt at creating a gray area between free will and determinism



I don't see it as gray, I see it as a mosaic of black and white pieces: this moment is determined both by information from the past and by the free-willed choice of picking this moment from all the possible ones that are accessible from this particular past.

This is compatible with metaphysical determinism if what we see as a free-will choice is actually deterministic information that is completely determined by a real[TM] free-will choice made at the beginning of time, but which has been hidden until this moment. But that kind of determinism is not different in any interesting sense from the indeterministic picture where the free choices are a sort of non-initial boundary conditions.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1907643 - 09/12/03 12:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

maybe its not the fact that we create the grey area, but simply our capability to understand is in the grey area. We try and see through the fog, the haze of our swarming thoughts. Yet, we still try to create or do something that would push us through the cloud to understand. Thats what I think is going on with this issue. I agree with kaiowas on this though. I guess that just my interpretation. But are you saying we cant have free will and chose to compassion, because that would other wise be a contradiction to choice because you say that would be determinism?


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1907792 - 09/12/03 01:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Determinism undermines any meaning to acts of creation.
I like to think that anything that you or I or anyone creates is actually capable of having real meaning. If not, then we're all just one great big mechanistic reaction... change IS time and nothing else... humanity means nothing... beauty is a set of rules... subjectivity IS objectivity (sounds like doublethink doesn't it?)... the concept of existence is belittled...

If this sounds good to you, then by all means... write off these words as inevitable... it isn't going to change you a bit.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1907800 - 09/12/03 01:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Patterns have no meaning to the determined. :wink:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1908688 - 09/12/03 06:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Scenario 1. You drive a certain country road every day. One day you choose not to stop at a certain intersection. When you reach the intersection, you crash into another car. You could have acted differently, but your free will made this particular choice that resulted in a crash.

Scenario 2. Same country road, but in this case you decide one day that it's a waste of time to stop at that intersection, so you make a habit of speeding through it without stopping. After six months of doing this, you crash into another car one day. You could have acted differently in other circumstances, but your action was deterministic. Anyone who had observed your behaviour the past six months would have been able to predict your choice. The free will that was involved here was exercised six months earlier.

In practice, it's seldom possible to know whether someone's behaviour is caused by a fresh instance of free will or by habits or other forms of deterministic mental programming. That's why personal responsibility should be based on pragmatic considerations, not on abstract reasoning about the nature of free will.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1909108 - 09/12/03 12:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Look... habits are habits - they don't negate the existence of free will. I'm not even saying that we make free choices all the time... I'm just saying that we have the ability to do so. I have a favorite flavor of ice cream, but I don't have to choose that flavor every time (I usually don't actually).

The presence of patterns does not necessarily mean that there is some grand fractal behind everything.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1920136 - 09/16/03 01:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

im reminded of the painting of narcisuss by salvador dali. MAybe he sees the danger of psycho analysis. It makes you believe there is some pattern, some pre concieved notion to existence. How it can destroy someone. So bent on thinking about themselves, in their own head. But sometimes i wonder about de ja vu... ITs like you wake up to that moment, that youve changed, and maybe thats a point of self reflection i guess. Maybe thats not making sense. And i really dont know anymore.

But i remember thinking one time... like all the many times upon uproar. Man exists for his own sake. Everything is hidden within it a pattern for its own existence... and all these things tie together into one thing.. for they all exist together. And its nothing more than a picture. And you and me, we are here, and we see this world in front of us. We see wet paint on the canvas of our existence. And we mix and mingle. And sometimes we wonder if we become the art itself. Sometimes we look into our own meaning. But as i have come to discover, it is just as crazy as the world that i dont understand. The things i do understand underlay my feelings and actions inside my life. Under that sense, i think compassion are merely a grasp away, and some things are out of reaach. How we view the two is up to us i suppose.


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Does altruism exist? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1920375 - 09/16/03 03:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I have a slightly interesting point to make here. I once went about trying to prove the ideas of psychological egoism. It was earlier in my youth, and jaded philosophy (not that I have achieved great age or overcome all jadedness but still). I wanted to try and show repeated acts of selflessness could occur simply out of complex interactions of reward and punishment. So I turned to Artificial Intelligence.

Essentially I created a ?society? of very simple nodes that interacted with growing and eating food. The first thing to define real quickly is my reward and punishment. I defined two main sources for each, internal reward and punishment and external reward and punishment. Internal is what your mind and body do to you. I treated this as a very powerful motivating force, but it could be tempered by external reward and punishment as well. The source of this external reward/punishment was other nodes. If enough nodes attempted rewarded or punished you for an action it could override internal drives. Thus external realities could create ?selfish? selfless acts.

The society was essentially based around food. The idea was simple, any given node could perform three actions; it could eat some food out of a central area, water and care for the food in the area, or do nothing. Every cycle used up energy for the nodes and if there energy went to zero they died off. Eating provided energy, water and caring increased overall food stores, nothing did nothing. The less available energy a node had the stronger internal reward or punishment a node received for its actions. So a node low on energy that did not eat during a cycle received a high internal punishment, or vice versa. Other nodes in the vicinity of a given node could observe behavior and offer either complaints or praise that acted on the overall motivation of the given node. The lower the food supplies for the whole group the more likely and stronger the condemnation for eating or praise for water. The total external and internal weighted reward/punishment lead to the nodes actions. So the nodes actions were motivated purely by efforts to maximize its overall reward and minimize punishment. My idea was that altruistic acts, watering when personal energy was low, would become common in this environment yet any given node was still motivated by selfish desires. One added piece I did was allow additional nodes to be created during high times of surplus, these next generation nodes inherited the group average tendency to perform a given action, so that essentially actions were teachable to next generation nodes.

Well all the technical jargon behind, I discovered what I thought were some interesting things. What I found was that a society based on these rules almost always fell apart with in a few generations. The next step I did was randomize all the initial conditions and allowed the program to repeatedly attempt to create a stable society, where nodes could maintain adequate food supplies and most nodes survived multiple iteration cycles. What I found after 5 days of crunching was that the only society that could ever become stable were societies where nodes had an initial propensity for performing selfless acts regardless of reward/punishment.

So I pretty much disproved my initial hypothesis. Whatever application this might have to humans, I leave open to personal review.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles, CBD Topicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* whats the best way to show love and compassion
( 1 2 3 all )
CleverName 3,845 51 07/02/04 08:34 AM
by Swami
* Compassion
( 1 2 3 all )
Positronius 4,250 47 06/19/04 10:59 AM
by Moonshoe
* About Compassion egghead1 653 6 03/13/05 07:40 AM
by egghead1
* Compassion SkorpivoMusterion 586 1 10/05/04 05:09 PM
by deff
* Compassion #2 egghead1 516 1 03/21/05 06:16 PM
by eMotionALLmotion
* God exists... Lightningfractal 503 17 08/11/04 08:57 PM
by Lightningfractal
* Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence?
( 1 2 all )
Source 3,268 25 07/02/04 08:48 PM
by Zahid
* Compassion
( 1 2 all )
allmakescombined 3,233 24 10/06/04 05:59 PM
by Moonshoe

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
2,123 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.