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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8179149 -

WhiskeyClone said:
Icelander said:
Your definition of "spiritual" probably means whatever feeds your own narcissistic feel-good responses.

I believe this is true of all spiritual seekers including you and me Markos. Check the mirror.


Wow you really do think humanity is just a steaming pile of shit :lol:

But yes that is true of spiritual seekers, because seeking implies trying to become something different, or better... eternally trying to get somewhere else.  Terminology ruins everything, as usual.

What is more narcissistic than disparaging others?  :strokebeard:


No you're wrong. I think humanity in general is weak and very flawed but not without hope on the individual level, but first we have to be honest with ourselves. I know a couple of people that are living examples of how I prefer humanity to behave. These are humble warrior types. Not many, but that will always be the case.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (03/22/08 09:33 AM)

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179194 -

Spiritual, referring to Spirit or Consciousness is what diminishes the ego. We, as ego, don't like that, particularly when the ego feels its death approaching. The Realization of Spirituality does not 'feel good' to the ego. It is not about being masochistic either, it is about surrender to the inevitability of the ego's impermanence. This is an ultimately humbling experience for every ego - the diametrical opposite of narcissism.

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8179199 -

Hope it helps you feel good to identify with all that. My point remains, there is little difference between any of us.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179201 -

One large difference being education.


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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8179218 -

It's not a large difference at all. Between the smartest and the dumbest is a tiny gap at most. Especially when you get into the emotional realm , where it really matters.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179236 -

'Between the smartest and the dumbest is a tiny gap at most.'

Surely this gap can't be negotiated as gracefully as a crack in the sidewalk??


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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8179253 -

Well as humans we tend to whine a lot and kid ourselves about almost everything so the problem lies there. Otherwise we would much more graceful about the facts of life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179282 -

'...particularly when the ego feels its death approaching.'

The 'facts of life'??
Most didn't get the recent addendum, imo.


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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8179304 -

I certainly don't know what you're talking about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179346 -

Ego death as a fact of life.


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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8179414 -

How is ego death a fact of life? I have never met a live ego dead person.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179569 -

More like dead ego live person, at least temporarily.
It is my understanding that while walking a certain path...
One inevitably encounters this real experience.
Possibly purely dose dependent.
That it happens at all is reason enough for me to consider it fact.
Not that the terminology is adequate.
Or that it has anything to do with actual death. Practice maybe.
Just that with the ego subjectively 'out of the way' wholly OTHER realms of experience are presented to the experiencer.
It is my suggestion that without a certain level of education or experience on the matter this particular 'fact of life' is absent.
A large gap in understanding pertaining to reality imo.
One that is not easily bridged in my experience.
Or even considered for that matter.
The most effective tool of control imo.


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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8179576 -

Quote:
What is more narcissistic than disparaging others?




"I'm Disparagus!"


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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8179618 -

backfromthedead said:
More like dead ego live person, at least temporarily.
It is my understanding that while walking a certain path...
One inevitably encounters this real experience.
Possibly purely dose dependent.
That it happens at all is reason enough for me to consider it fact.
Not that the terminology is adequate.
Or that it has anything to do with actual death. Practice maybe.
Just that with the ego subjectively 'out of the way' wholly OTHER realms of experience are presented to the experiencer.
It is my suggestion that without a certain level of education or experience on the matter this particular 'fact of life' is absent.
A large gap in understanding pertaining to reality imo.
One that is not easily bridged in my experience.
Or even considered for that matter.
The most effective tool of control imo.


The ego structure is used to navigate human reality. No ego no person. The ego is always operating IMO. Sometimes though it is operating in an optimum fashion which means that it isn't interfering where it doesn't belong (a rare event indeed). Maybe this is what you are referring to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179747 -

The Splitting of Representation and Referent Layers

Salvia divinorum causes metaperception, which is the tangible perception of the layer of mental constructs that is the only thing directly presented to awareness. In the dissociative state, the vantage-point of awareness is raised, or stepped back a level, resulting in perceiving the cognitive workings of mental-construct processing and perception itself.

Mental constructs that are usually tightly associated separate from each other. The mental representation of each item also perceptibly separates from the represented referent; representations split into two perceptibly distinct layers. The representation layer is present to awareness like a tangible painting, while the referent layer is a remote, speculative realm that is pointed to but is perceptually absent, like a foreign country one has never directly seen.

A person lives their entire subjectively experienced life inside a simulation that their own mind produces by presenting mental constructs to awareness. In metaperception, personal control-power and personal movement through space and time appear as synthetic mental constructs.

The Moving Control-Agent as Mental Construct

In the ordinary cognitive state, the mind generates the sensation of being an autonomous egoic agent wielding cross-time control-power while moving through time and space; this sensation is a projected, constructed, synthetic image and perspective.

The ego-entity exists as a real set of patterns and dynamics spread across time, but the ego is not solid, continuous, or autonomously powerful in the way the mind originally imagines. The self exists as a mental construct in the form of a time-slice series. This mental construct exists both as the entire series and as individual time-slices, with the continuant agent’s motion and control-power mentally projected from within each time-slice.

Seeing the illusory aspects of mental representation of oneself, and feeling static spacetime unity in the absence of the accustomed sense of personal solidity, can be experienced as death. This death-experience is the ending of personal existence, because the egoic-mode mind identifies one’s existence with the projected image and sensation of the moving continuant agent and its control-power.

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: deranger]
    #8179781 -

Well I agree that the ego is not a separate entity within the self but a part of the whole structure of personality etc. Yet without what we call ego we cannot navigate our perceived reality. With salvia this becomes obvious, but to me that is just because the usual patterns of cognition are disrupted or something like that. I took salvia as far as it would go and while I did not know what I was at times something was still operating and observing the experience. While some may believe this is some kind of over soul or such, I believe it was just my good ol brain having a field day trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179809 -

'Maybe this is what you are referring to.'

The inspired philosopher does not merely *think* or "philosophize" about timelessness, eternity, and ego-death; he *experiences* it, forcefully, even against his will, so that it is experienced as a life-or-death problem and a dire situation demanding a solution with the urgency of an emergency.

www.egodeath.com


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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: Icelander]
    #8179825 -

you are misunderstanding, it is not the actual death of the ego. it has to do more with death of one's control over the ego. when there is no more control it feels as though the ego is dead, as this control is what we normally identify with as our personal existence.


The ego is the sense of being a metaphysically free, sovereign agent that originates and controls its own thoughts, actions, and movements of the will while moving through time and space.

Ego death is the cessation, in the intense mystic altered state, of the sense and feeling of being a control-wielding agent moving through time and space. The sensation of wielding control is replaced by the experience of being helplessly, powerlessly embedded in spacetime as purely a product of spacetime, with control-thoughts being perceptibly inserted or set into the stream of thought by a hidden, uncontrollable source.


Ego death leaves one’s initial, youthful “lie” behind. The “lie” is the confused mental worldmodel which assumes that oneself is the ultimate creator of one’s thoughts, actions, future, and movements of the will. The goal of testing control in the altered state is not to act out the loss of control in any way, but rather, to gain fundamental self-knowledge and correction of self-frustrating error and confusion. The goal of putting control to the test is to understand the nature and limits of control across time by exploring ideas of loss of control and transcendent restabilization of control.

The promise of increased power over oneself leads to realizing the logical impossibility of that mode of power, but produces instead a viable alternate conception, of secondary-level, reflected power. The vexing attempt to gain properly functioning self-control while holding a confused model of self-control ceases. The misleading sensation that the time-voyaging continuant agent is the originator of its power of will is recognized as a conventional misperception and mental oversimplification.

http://egodeath.com/mobile4.htm

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8179879 -

backfromthedead said:
'Maybe this is what you are referring to.'

The inspired philosopher does not merely *think* or "philosophize" about timelessness, eternity, and ego-death; he *experiences* it, forcefully, even against his will, so that it is experienced as a life-or-death problem and a dire situation demanding a solution with the urgency of an emergency.



www.egodeath.com


Maybe the "inspired philosopher" is a myth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: I want enlightenment WITH the vices [Re: deranger]
    #8179891 -

My experince with salvia did not feel like death of anything. It felt like something else, and that's all. I would have had to be thinking normally to perceive the idea that my ego felt dead.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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