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OfflinePhluck
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Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods.
    #4400057 - 07/13/05 04:21 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It's difficult to stick so much as you pinky toe in this forum without having about fifty people telling you that the material world is one of illusion and greed. Shopping, or being a "consumer" in any way means that you're lost, you're following a false path, you've got your values all confused and mixed up.

The less you have, the better you are, apparently.

Personally, I think this is a classic example of common sense becoming exagerrated into a dogmatic irrational belief.

Sure, material goods are not the be-all end-all. Having more doesn't make you a better person, of course. Of course, it's equally illogical to claim that because someone likes to collect things, or because they have a bunch of stuff, they're evil or somehow "lost".

What if someone honestly believed that they could achieve happiness or inner peace by shopping? What if someone simply enjoys the act of say, purchasing clothes, to the point that it gives them a kind of spiritual thrill? Is there something inherantly wrong with this?

Or is this simply another way to discriminate against a segment of the population? How many people do you know who will immediately make judgemental comments when they see someone wearing fancy clothes? "Look at that shallow trendy bitch..." something like that.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400074 - 07/13/05 04:27 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Outside context of religion, there really is no base for saying any kind of action and mindset is better than the other.

Without deities, grand plans, spiritual worlds, there are no rules, no patterns, and nothing is better than anything else.

Nobody has any basis to judge materialism and greed or violence, yet everyone is so eager to tell others what to do around here.

Just ignore it, and enjoy your shopping


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400091 - 07/13/05 04:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Outside context of religion, there really is no base for saying any kind of action and mindset is better than the other.

Well, that's not entirely true. If it were, athiests would have no sense of morality.

Empathy and guilt, natural human emotions, force morality upon us. Actions that ultimately harm others make us feel bad, so we don't like 'em.

Materialism isn't exactly the same as greed or violence. You can enjoy material things without crossing over into greed, and violence, which is directly imposing harm upon others, is in a class by itself.

An all out rejection of materialism doesn't have the kind of concrete basis other morals do. It's a bit more dogmatic than rational.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400108 - 07/13/05 04:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Empathy and guilt are like sensations of pain.
When some hits you on the head, you reach your head with arms.

But that doesn't mean that you MUST touch your head if it hurts.
It simply means that you are folowing an instinct.

Empathy does cause a certain kind of behaviour, but empathy is a human subjective sensation like any other.
Empathy is emapthy, it does not give you messages from god or universe if god does not exist.

You can't really judge someone on basis of your own feelings and sensations, they speak nothing of the act, they only speak about you who experience them.

Otherwise, next time someone does not touch his head when it hurts, I might preach to him that it is the moral thing to do becaus I myself feel the need to do it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400120 - 07/13/05 04:44 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Materialism isn't exactly the same as greed or violence. You can enjoy material things without crossing over into greed, and violence, which is directly imposing harm upon others, is in a class by itself.

An all out rejection of materialism doesn't have the kind of concrete basis other morals do. It's a bit more dogmatic than rational.





and how is harming different from shoping or riding a bibicle? Or playing cards with friends?

All are just actions that simply happen. It is us humans who make a different between watching TV and killing someone

Who else is making the difference if not humans?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400129 - 07/13/05 04:46 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

and as for atheists and morality..

it seems human beings genetically have this instinct of creating invisible standards. If god does not exist, then this is where god came from.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinemikeytwice
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400149 - 07/13/05 04:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Phluck, I agree, though I'd question anyone who claims to experience spiritual fulfillment from shopping - that's a stretch.  I mean, even if they experience some sort of fulfillment, I doubt it'd be at the same level as that which some guy meditating in a cave for two weeks experiences, but who knows.

Going to an antimaterialistic extreme shows a misunderstanding of the matter.  We do, after all, live within matter.  The idea is to not be distracted by desitres that will cause you to deviate from a given path.

I find it somewhat humorous and good that most of us are seeking the spirit through matter, unless, of course, mushrooms and marijuana don't materially exist. :smile:


--------------------
\


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4400158 - 07/13/05 04:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

fishing can be more spiritual than meditation, and meditation can be more spiritual than fishing, all depends on the personal definition of spiritual


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400183 - 07/13/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yes! All is just things happening. There's no better or worse in the ultimate sense.

However, in a relative sense there's a better and worse if you're trying to accomplish a certain goal. Sort of like, if you're trying to get a job and all you do is sit around your home watching TV all day, this is worse in terms of your goal than going out and applying for jobs. So the reason some people are averse to material living is because they are trying to get in touch with the Eternal/God/Creator which is non-physical. So they they may find attachment to material things to be hindrance to their goal. But this is just their opinion according to their goal and shouldn't be taken as a judgement in any greater sense.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400193 - 07/13/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

where ever you may find peace and understanding of Self, thats where you are.


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: moog]
    #4400199 - 07/13/05 05:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

yes but those that want a certain goal are imposing the rules of geting to that goal to those that obviously are not interested in finding that goal


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400218 - 07/13/05 05:09 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I think you just summed up the entire history of humanity in that one sentence. :wink:


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #4400220 - 07/13/05 05:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"wherever you go, that's where you are"
:grin:


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: moog]
    #4400232 - 07/13/05 05:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

:foshizzle:

Glad yah caught it :grin: :heart:


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4400261 - 07/13/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)


Phluck, I agree, though I'd question anyone who claims to experience spiritual fulfillment from shopping - that's a stretch. I mean, even if they experience some sort of fulfillment, I doubt it'd be at the same level as that which some guy meditating in a cave for two weeks experiences, but who knows.


I don't agree, personally. I think this likely comes from the perception that people have about shopping, from the way it is discussed and viewed in society. I think that if someone approached shopping from the perspective that it would be enlightening, then they could create those results. Shopping seems kind of un-spiritual, but is there anything about it that truly is un-spiritual?

Many people see drug use as self destructive and childish, to these people the idea that marijuana could be spiritual is completely foreign, ludicrous even.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400263 - 07/13/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You've got it all wrong. It is not shopping or materialism one should avoid, it is trying to fullfill the desires popping up in ones mind, whether they be materialistic, emotional, sexual etc etc etc. It is a hole that cannot be filled. It is like a dog chasing it's own tail.

If one tries to shop himself happy, he will not be.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400326 - 07/13/05 05:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Empathy and guilt are like sensations of pain.
When some hits you on the head, you reach your head with arms.

But that doesn't mean that you MUST touch your head if it hurts.
It simply means that you are folowing an instinct.


Well, yes, I do agree completely. I don't think that there is any kind of morality built into the universe, or even that all people have empathy or guilt, or that they are all triggered by the same things.

I do think that morality originates from empathy and guilt, their existance is the factor that makes many minds believe that they are components of the universe, and the reason that morality became a part of religion.

Empathy is emapthy, it does not give you messages from god or universe if god does not exist.

Again, I agree completely, but it very often makes people believe that they are receiving messages from God.

I feel that trying to reduce the suffering of others is noble. I do feel that my notion of nobility, as it is for absolutely everyone, is completely fabricated.

Most people think that their morals have a good basis, that they are not completely arbitrary. The idea of avoiding inflicting harm on others is a common justification for certain morals.

Materialism, which is commonly criticized, even by people who would agree that it is best to have a rational basis for moral opinions, does not seem to meet this criteria.

Not that the universe gives a shit one way or the other, but materialism does not necessarily harm others, while other actions that are commonly considered morally wrong, like violence or theft, do.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I don't think. I'm just saying that there isn't the same justification for attacking materialism as there is for other things.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400349 - 07/13/05 05:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

There are three aspects to life. Material, mental, and spiritual. Without one of these you are not a whole person.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: dorkus]
    #4400366 - 07/13/05 05:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)


If one tries to shop himself happy, he will not be.


And if one tries to meditate himself happy? Or to volunteer for charities to make himself happy?

Are the things which people like to claim are more noble, or more real ways to achieve happiness really more effective, or do we simply claim this because we have been conditioned to believe that it is so?

It is commonly claimed that chasing our base desires will not lead to happiness, but I have a strong feeling that this may not be so. It reminds me of a study that was recently done on bullying. People often said that the kids on the playground that did the most bullying were the kids with the lowest self esteem. That they bullied to try and make themselves feel better about themselves. It turned out that this was not the case at all. It was the most popular kids, the kids who were the most satisfied with themselves that picked on the others.

We like to make assertions like this because we believe things should be fair. People shouldn't be able to make themselves happy by simply going out and having fun, being lazy, greedy, or mean, so we claim that they don't. We don't have any solid data to prove either way, so it seems that these opinions are based on how we think things should be, and not necessarily on the way they actually are.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4400410 - 07/13/05 05:51 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way; so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
-Emo Philips


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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