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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8250985 - 04/07/08 02:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

the only reason to put a word there is because we are materialistical about it.
this is not like a peer reviewed matriculation

(sometimes that happens in monasteries but that is so tight and kinda artificial - phew!)

essentially since you can easily fall off the path and easily get on the path and there is no physical difference and "nearly" no mental difference - there should be no such idea of "attainment".

the net difference of being on the path is that while you are doing it that way you cause little harm and much good, you recover from pettiness without effort, and are mindful and light of heart.

these things are not absolute measures by any means, but I am serious about not making this an overly crystalline thing. even the last symbol Markos gave of a rod prods me every time I think about it. but I recover.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8251216 - 04/07/08 03:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I've never understood why it is necessary to use such a word to describe some aspect of reality or one's experience if the word itself doesn't convey consensual meaning. Shouldn't the inevitable explanation as to what the individual meant in using the word simply stand on its own?




In many cases, yes it should. Enlightenment is different than other nouns in that it cannot be understood intellectually. It can only be experienced, and pointed to indirectly. As soon as you try to articulate it with words, you have made a thought out of it, and you are no longer referring to enlightenment itself, but the mental image you have of it.

The common interpretation of 'God' is a conceptual one, composed entirely of each individual's comparisons of it to other things he or she is familiar with. This widespread misinterpretation is a direct result of our mistaken assumption that everything can be understood mentally.

Enlightenment defies rational understanding, and therefore defies verbal elaboration.

This is why it cannot have a consensual meaning. Everybody's personal verbal definition is defacto inaccurate, and therefore they will not match each other's, even if they understand it to be the same thing. Put simply, what enlightenment is cannot be communicated.

We cannot discuss it without this linguistic inaccuracy, no matter what words we choose. Language is inadequate here. Zen Koans recognize this limitation and illustrate enlightenment without describing it in rational terms, because to do so is to point the student in the wrong direction.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8251796 - 04/07/08 05:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

RGV your posts have really spoken to me lately. The more I listen, the more silly I feel with myself. :stoned:

To me, enlightenment doesn't make any sense unless it is considered paradoxical. But this does not mean it is useless as a concept. Maybe there isn't a singularity at the end of the path, but its hard to conceive of a path that heads no where in particular.

You ask: how useful is this concept enlightenment?

How useful is philosophizing in general? The etiquette of this forum reminds us to speak objectively as possible so as to communicate well. But if we derive our entire understanding from such a perspective, aren't we just fooling ourselves? The goal of philosophy is truth, or enlightenment, whether it is in actuality a big circle jerk or not. But maybe this process can be useful, even though in a literal sense it is flawed.

I think dropping the word as a prerogative for something else is just as silly... And it will be something else.

To paraphrase EternalCowabunga from the "opinion" thread:

Saying that reality is nonsensical, is trying to make sense it. :shrug:


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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: daytripper23]
    #8251970 - 04/07/08 06:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

true
all too true (too)
but that is the way with winnie the poo


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Offlineyourdouyolayola
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Registered: 12/23/07
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8273949 - 04/12/08 02:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, we can not.

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