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Offlineskystone
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drugs and spirituality/enlightenment
    #3376262 - 11/17/04 09:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I would really like to know the opinion of all of you folks here on this issue.

1.-----

Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?
In other words, are they the "real" thing, like having near death experiences or meditation? Are they a connection to ultimate truth
in a direct way, rather than just illusion.
Do you really feel connected, and do you really experience the energy of everything, or Is this just another form of hallucination?

2.-----

And allso If the answer to all that is YES, how do you explain it?
What is your theory? What happens to your brain that gives you these "abilities" so to speak?

3.-----

And how do you incorporate impaired abilities to function in this world, and visual hallucinations into this theory?

Looking forward to hearing your opinions and theories


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3376280 - 11/17/04 10:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

1. Yes.

2. I consider it an intentionally induced NDE.

3. Side-effects.


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OfflineSamuel
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3376314 - 11/17/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Are they a connection to ultimate truth in a direct way, rather than just illusion.
Do you really feel connected, and do you really experience the energy of everything, or Is this just another form of hallucination?"

I think drugs are A way of doing these things. I don't really believe that they're the only way. They're not hallucinations, but rather a heightened awareness of what is really available in your head for you to learn.

Everything that you learn and experience on shrooms (at least for me) is something that I already know, something that already exists inside my head. Because of the heightened awareness from the drug I am able to teach it to myself through what I experience through "hallucinations"


--------------------
:heart: :heart:


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Anonymous

Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3376341 - 11/17/04 10:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

1 Yes to all.

2 I see it this way: Psychedelics don't give you extra "abilities." They simply remove our dis-abilities that are an inherent part of our bodies, and allow us an experience closer to our true being. In other words, this is similar to Aldous Huxley's "release valve" model of external stimuli. Our bodies actually handicap us in sobriety from seeing the true nature of reality.

3 We're "impaired" while under the influence because our bodies were meant to live on this plane, within a very limited scope of reality. When we glimpse into the higher realms we can no longer operate our bodies as well because they were not made to live permanently within the greater reality. Visual and other hallucinations are simply stimuli of the higher realms that we experience while our scope of reality is temporarily expanded due to the hallucinogens.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: ]
    #3376429 - 11/17/04 10:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the answers so far, keep them comming.

a comment from me:
I share your opinion Max about us being disabled to find the trouth
in our "normal" state. It makes sense.

Now Samuel, I didn't say these are the only ways. I know that there are other ways. I was just wondering are drugs ONE OF THE WAYS.

So Max, your opinion is that EVERYTHING we experience in a trip is
comming from something more divine, even hallucinations, and is actually an "earthly" way of interpreting stimulations from higher realms? Then it would be like being stuck between two worlds, perviecing both of them at the same time. One with senses, and other with the "third eye", and then our primitive perception is mixing both of them into these visual hallucinations? Interesting..

Anyway. In my question number two, I was hoping for something more technical.
For example, how does seratonin2 have anything to do with touching deeper realities? Does it activate some parts of the brain that we don't use usually? Or some theory like that.

And speaking of brain. Did anyone ever recorded brain functions in trips (in science research) If yes, were there any unusual parts active that are a part of that 90% (or whatever) unused potential?


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3376532 - 11/17/04 10:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?
No, I don't think they are, not in the way you mean it. Meditation, yoga, martial arts and the like are all methods you use to gain whatever it is you're seeking to gain. Taking mushrooms, even in a regimen is not practicing a method. It is inducing a "higher" state of mind, for sure, and the spiritual experiences and insights, even states of "enlightenment" from mushroom trips are "valid," but these experiences are just a flash and the shrooms are not going to bring you to enlightenment.

Something worth noting on this subject is that psychedelics aren't used to gain enlightenment by any cultures. They are used as tools to gain access to avenues of the mind wherein nature of disease can be identified and cured (plus some whacky witchcraft shit). I'm going to put my faith in historical example and go with the time-tested methods of meditation for enlightenment and mushrooms for.. whatever they're for, I'm not sure anymore so I haven't done them in a while.

how do you explain it?
Not even the most badass brain chemists know exactly what's going on, so I'm not going to give you a specific theory involving neurotransmitter acronyms. There are tons of different ways to describe the effects mushrooms have on your mind, if you've been around here for long you've heard 'em all.. If I had to break it down into a quick explanation I would say that the root of all these sensations of enlightenment and amazement you get on a shroom trip come from an amplification of your normal mind-processes. You're you only MORE so.

I've heard that psilocin triggers the neurons repeatedly whereas the neurons normal transmitter will only hit 'em once and then keep going. If this is true it would make sense that this machine-gun like action in between the synapses would be the material root of the mind-amplification that I spoke of above.

how do you incorporate impaired abilities to function in this world, and visual hallucinations into this theory?
epiphenomena


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3376683 - 11/17/04 11:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:

So Max, your opinion is that EVERYTHING we experience in a trip is
comming from something more divine,
Anyway. In my question number two, I was hoping for something more technical.
For example, how does seratonin2 have anything to do with touching deeper realities? Does it activate some parts of the brain that we don't use usually? Or some theory like that.

And speaking of brain. Did anyone ever recorded brain functions in trips (in science research) If yes, were there any unusual parts active that are a part of that 90% (or whatever) unused potential?




Yeah, a few interesting studies have been done:

Olaf Blanke produced OOB experiences in an epileptic woman in 2002. Electrical stimulation was applied to her right angular gyrus of her temporal lobe, and the stronger the stimulation, the stronger the out of body experience.

Andrew Newberg found that when Buddhist monks meditate and Franciscan nuns pray, an spot in the posterior superior parietal lobe called the orientation association area showed abnormally low activity.

Micheal Persinger created a hat that stimulates the brain with electromagnets, creating microsezuires. He has brought on spiritual, supernatural, OOB, episodes in over 600 people studied.

These same states that can be drug induced seem to result from the brain almost "malfunctioning" instead of the opposite. Normal healthy brain functioning seems to obstruct these states......

As far as the 90% thing, that is a myth. You use the whole thing on a pretty regular basis, just not at the same instant.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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OfflineJCoke
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3376691 - 11/17/04 11:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Psychedelics is like art, no wait...it IS art, for the most part it is the same reality you have everyday, just now the brain is being tickled, an artist could paint a picture of shapes and colors and to some people it's nothing more than a mess, but to him and some other people that see it, it means so much more than just shapes and colors they see a deep meaning to it, that's the best I can describe what psychedelic drugs are like and what they do to me.

tripping paints spirituality in my head, I don't think that makes any since to you, but i guess my spirituality/enlightenment is undiscribable to anyone else but me.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineRedEyeSamurai
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3376923 - 11/18/04 12:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry to not go in your three question format... I am lazy.

I think that every individual has a set way they see the world based on thier genetics and past experiences.  Drugs such as LSD and Acid (and weed and ritalin and.....) affect pathways that the electrical and chemical proccess take.  This gives the same individual a brand new way to see the world.  Once the drugs ware off you are left with two images of the world.  When the way one sees the world while chemicaly dosed is compared to stone sober a much greater overall appreciation is noticed by our ability to know what is what.  Some people take as religion, some spiritual enlightenment, I call it getting to know myself and the natural surroundings that make up my universe.    :tongue2:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3377096 - 11/18/04 01:05 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Why would you believe that psychedelics are a key to enlightenment? Do you think acid-heads are wisemen? What happened to Hendrix and Morrison? Were Leary or McKennna saints or merely explorers of the inner world?

Ingesting entheogens is a unique experience like visiting another land. Do you think that going to Antarctica will bring you wisdom? They may expand your views of the world, or at least get you to question your firmly-held beliefs, but they, in and of themselves, will not "make" you moral or holy.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3377113 - 11/18/04 01:10 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It all depends on the traveler.


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3377190 - 11/18/04 01:47 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

who is the one realizing enlightenment? who is the one? who isnt the one? ego traps all in this world.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3377234 - 11/18/04 02:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Why would you believe that psychedelics are a key to enlightenment? Do you think acid-heads are wisemen? What happened to Hendrix and Morrison? Were Leary or McKennna saints or merely explorers of the inner world?

Ingesting entheogens is a unique experience like visiting another land. Do you think that going to Antarctica will bring you wisdom? They may expand your views of the world, or at least get you to question your firmly-held beliefs, but they, in and of themselves, will not "make" you moral or holy.




This reminds me of a quote "Buddhism is like a finger pointing at the moon. Don't confuse the moon with the finger." Because psychedelics aren't going to make you a wise person, and can definitely lead you to odd places of insanity. The first time i really grasped the essence of meditation, was on mushrooms. From then on, i carried my freedom with me everywhere i went! Hey, part of that's going in my sig!

Edit: Dammit, i just realized i said psychedelics [bold]are[/bold] going to make you a wise man. Sorry, stupid typo. That would sound pretty idiotic.


--------------------
Me, Myself, and GOD


Edited by DMTelepath (11/18/04 09:50 AM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3377259 - 11/18/04 02:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think psychedelics disrupt our regular patterns of thought, and force us to reconstruct reality as we see it. However, there is no set pattern for that reconstruction, so while they can lead to enlightenment or higher spiritual awareness, they can also lead to self-destructive behavior, delusions of grandeur, or escapism. It depends on the user. You get out what you put in.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineskystone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
    #3378167 - 11/18/04 09:24 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

These questions were regarding people who do experience some kind of "enlightenment" in the easter-religion sense of the word.
I did not ask about those who just have colorful trips. I didn't ask
if these drugs always cause it in everyone.
I just asked what do you think, in those cases when people suddenly feel that they understand everything, and feel the energy of the cosmos, is it a real connection with a "higher self" or just
a vierd hallucination alltogether.

Swami. You should read my original questions better. I never
said that people using acid are enlightened.

In order to start talking about this you need to first accept the concept of enlightenment as a genuine thing, and not an illusion.
And after that the question is, are those states of mind in meditation the same states SOME people get on acid and shrooms.
If you don't belive in anything beyond this world, both of these states are illusions (drugs and meditation).

One point of view would be that only meditation and death is a genuine way to enlightenment and that drugs only cause hallucinations
out of whatever reason. The other point of view would be that
psychadelics really cause a state of consciousness similar to that
in meditation or death.

Of course the third point of view would be of course that neither meditation or drugs cause anything. That it is all an illusion and that we are just stupid primates that just die.
But this point of view has nothingt to do with this thread.
So my question was sent to those who have either of the first two points of view.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
    #3378545 - 11/18/04 11:00 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I think psychedelics disrupt our regular patterns of thought, and force us to reconstruct reality as we see it. However, there is no set pattern for that reconstruction, so while they can lead to enlightenment or higher spiritual awareness, they can also lead to self-destructive behavior, delusions of grandeur, or escapism. It depends on the user. You get out what you put in.




i also see them bypassing the filters of reality that your brain uses when not under the influence of psychedelics. I dont see it as necessarily giving enlightenment, just a potential to understand more. it may or may not allow the user to become somewhat enlightened.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3378859 - 11/18/04 12:10 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
RGV Simplified the question to 3 points in order to focus answer:
1.----- drugs - enlightenment - path - real thing
2.----- how do you explain it?
3.----- how do you incorporate impaired abilities




1. The experiences on drugs or of anything can be used by a person who has a spiritual quest, but the experiences on drugs should be used cautiously in the context of the quest, of discovery of self, of states of mind, and how the experience relates to nature. Experiences of anything - not just drugs -can easily be used out of context and so can result in extrapolation and delusion.

Spiritual questors often experience "psychic" epiphanies, states of rapture etc. with or without drugs, but many who are not overtly spiritual will have rapture like experiences on drugs and may be turned to a spiritual quest to help integrate the experience.

2. In a spiritual quest, the joy or rapture will usually follow meditation (in jhana's) or psychic breakdowns after a great deal of effort, prayer, sufi turning, & maybe some fasting... the nature of the rapture will be vibrations or physical joy and often some accompanying auditory and visual manifestations that are as or more real as this world appears to be.

I use the term joy as it is used in jhana descriptions in the literature (buddhist meditation), and it is not always pleasureable.

The reason rapture like experiences occur with some drugs (and emotional states) involves some reflection on the nature of Jhana, and some consideration of the basic effects of psychedelics, and I am not refering to the mere chemical action.

Jhana follows the centering efforts of concentration in which a single point of focus is returned to and eventually the attention becomes effortless, sustained by mere nominal effort (more like). The mind seems to be still, the concentration seems to continue almost as a standing wave. In fact the concentration becomes supported by mind moments that are fading more slowly, which makes it easier to concentrate on the same thing. Since mind moments are fading more slowly they overlap more pronouncedly, and a sense of a more intense reality dawns. I call this effect FRAME STACKING.

With psychedelic or entheogen use, the mind goes into a Frame Stacking mode as well, in which mind moments fade more slowly but the input continues at the same rate. this creates the densification - multidimensional - expanded consciousness etc. which can provide the same kinds of manifestations as meditation.

Neither are more real, though getting there on your own steam and emerging without any sticky mind states at will is a benefit. (One can emerge from meditative jhana in seconds, but not so from inebriated/entheogenized states.)

3. I think you can encorporate your experiences into your life by being reflective, and observant of nature. You have to want to find your own path, and if it involves inebrients, do be careful and keep that part separate from responsibility chaged duties like driving etc.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3378933 - 11/18/04 12:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

by drugs i think you're assuming substances that produce altered states of consciousness. you literally are what you eat and the brain is no exception. these substances are neurotransmitters, they work like an operative system. imagine our brains usually operate with old ms-dos and all of sudden you can upgrade it to windowsxp for a while. it's a little bit like that.

of course there was great software running on ms-dos and there's plenty of crap made nowadays for the xp. it's not the operative system that determines the quality of the software you run on it. but a better operative system gives you a lot more potential.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: a_h_w]
    #3378998 - 11/18/04 12:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"use the operator, and you grouped your potential"
-unknown :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (11/18/04 12:44 PM)


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Offlineskystone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Gomp]
    #3379129 - 11/18/04 01:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Reading all that, I just had another thought.
I don't know if this is logical or not, but
since psychadelics and meditation/NDE (and other "real" ways)
can lead you to similar or same experiences/thoughts/conclusions-about-universe , then both of those ways are either false or genuine.
It would be too much of a coincedence that one of them is
somehow "real" and other is just a mindless delusion.
So either all those ways are real, or all of those ways are delusions.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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