Quote:

---

skystone said:

So Max, your opinion is that EVERYTHING we experience in a trip is
comming from something more divine,
Anyway. In my question number two, I was hoping for something more technical.
For example, how does seratonin2 have anything to do with touching deeper realities? Does it activate some parts of the brain that we don't use usually? Or some theory like that.

And speaking of brain. Did anyone ever recorded brain functions in trips (in science research) If yes, were there any unusual parts active that are a part of that 90% (or whatever) unused potential?

---

Quote:

---

Swami said:
Why would you believe that psychedelics are a key to enlightenment? Do you think acid-heads are wisemen? What happened to Hendrix and Morrison? Were Leary or McKennna saints or merely explorers of the inner world?

Ingesting entheogens is a unique experience like visiting another land. Do you think that going to Antarctica will bring you wisdom? They may expand your views of the world, or at least get you to question your firmly-held beliefs, but they, in and of themselves, will not "make" you moral or holy.

---

Quote:

---

silversoul7 said:
I think psychedelics disrupt our regular patterns of thought, and force us to reconstruct reality as we see it. However, there is no set pattern for that reconstruction, so while they can lead to enlightenment or higher spiritual awareness, they can also lead to self-destructive behavior, delusions of grandeur, or escapism. It depends on the user. You get out what you put in.

---

Quote:

---

skystone said:
RGV Simplified the question to 3 points in order to focus answer:
1.----- drugs - enlightenment - path - real thing
2.----- how do you explain it?
3.----- how do you incorporate impaired abilities

---

Quote:

---

skystone said:
Reading all that, I just had another thought.
I don't know if this is logical or not, but
since psychadelics and meditation/NDE (and other "real" ways)
can lead you to similar or same experiences/thoughts/conclusions-about-universe , then both of those ways are either false or genuine.
It would be too much of a coincedence that one of them is
somehow "real" and other is just a mindless delusion.
So either all those ways are real, or all of those ways are delusions.

---

Quote:

---

One point of view would be that only meditation and death is a genuine way to enlightenment and that drugs only cause hallucinations
out of whatever reason. The other point of view would be that
psychadelics really cause a state of consciousness similar to that
in meditation or death.

---

This is something I was pondering about for quite a while, Skystone. Do psychedelics really open doors of perception through which we can get access to other, deeper realities.

After my first and second shroom trip I was blown away (in a positive way). After the third and fourth trip I started to have some serious doubts about whether psychedic trip opens doors of another reality or just distorts this reality (i.e. messes up the brain). Those latter trips were not bad in any way, but I didn't really grasp the 'meaning' so to speak.

After my two recent shroom trips, however, I concluded that it is much more probable that psychedelics do indeed open one's mind to different realities which really exist, that they do not produce merely a twisted form of ordinary reality.

For this I have two definite proofs. Before I took mushrooms, my visualisation skills were mediocre if not below average. E.g. When I listened to music I was able to imagine some visualisations, but they were all pretty bland.

After several shroom trips, however, my visualisation skills have gone from level 2 to level 2000. Now even when I'm not shroomed I can think of so complex images in motion that had been totally out of my reach before taking psychedelics. And these images are not superficial kaleidoscopes, they are like... like my imagination broke up all the chains and gone totally WILD in a positive way of the word. WOW! What a difference. Give me any song and I'll make the most perfect video for that song. No, not only one, but hundreds of them. And let somebody tell me that psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression.

The other thing that happened to me was that while bemushroomed I was able to compose and literally hear the most amazing music (in total silence). I was kind of suspicious about that at first. I thought I was just hallucinating, my brain simply repeating some tunes that I had heard before. I managed to record some of the tunes after the trip, and lo and behold - they were not copied from someone else's work, I really invented them myself.

The richness of imagery and soundscapes is so utterly convincing and complex that I am quite sure it is not a product of a hallucination or a disordered mind. I'm now much more inclined to think that this is in fact the result of insight into deeper realities that had always existed in my mind but of which I was unaware before. 


However, psychedelics open these doors only for a short period of time. All my life I haven't been trained in the fields of visual expression and music, so although I can visualise pictures and hear music much much better than before, I still lack technical skills to manifest and materialize them.


I know all this might sound pretty irrelevant to your question, but for me it was the most striking changes psychedelics produced, and I liken them to being more aware of my abilites (which is a first step towards enlightment, I think).


The only thing that worries me is that after these last two trips I became very depressed and in some sort of a limbo. I never felt so negative in all my life. Who knows why's that. Perhaps a phase?

Quote:

---

Psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression. Anything else?

---

As far as I am concerned, they do. And pretty damn spectacularly. I have witnessed it experientially. It's proven beyond any doubt. Anything else?


Swami, you have never peeked into my head, have you? So how can you give such blatant statements? Your logic goes something like this: if Swami and his friends haven't experienced something, it doesn't exist.


You pretend to be an authority on everything that is at odds with the present scientific model of reality. While a healthy dose of scepticism is always strongly *advised* to everyone (so as not to fall in trap to believe in everything he is told or has percieved), your present position and action is everything BUT healthy scpeticism.

Sadly, you're merely pumping up your ego, by trying to debunk everything that looks suspicious or is not supported by hard evidence of modern science at this moment. And you are obviously deriving great pleasure in the process, thinking how great you must appear to all those people who failed to see what you've shown them as obvious fallacy, and how impressive your persona looks in the eyes of those people.

There is nothing new about that position. Don't be fooled that all people are stunned by your exibitionism. See, some of us can see through your little ego games.

Quote:

---

Swami said:
And how are you certain of this?

Editor's note: this form of double-speakian conversation is classic newbie phase II

---

Quote:

---

Swami said:[/iWhat can I put into whiskey to get something out of it?

---

You can muddle in some marachino cheries and sugar, add a splash of 7 or soda and get an Old Fashioned.

Orrrr you can add some sweet and sour mix and a splash of 7up and get a whiskey sour.

And out of that, you get a tacky wedding reception.

Quote:

---

AntiMeme said:
I've yet to come across a more close minded, egoistic, self interested, war mongering crowd than the conservatives and the Libertarians there.

Maybe it's just my very subjective definition of an enlightened mind that's all wrong. Maybe true spirituality lies in collecting personal riches, or in killing off "them" where "them" is the current thorn in the eye of Great Leader? Or maybe the true goal is to rid the planet of all human life. All human dignity at any rate.

---

Quote:

---

Even more sad is yet another newbie (about 186 by my count) who is UNABLE to respond to (or ignore) a post WITHOUT playing the "Let's psychoanalyze the poster" game.

---

Quote:

---

The "rules" of this debate were set by skystone; We were asked to give our opinions and I have done my best at doing so. (I do note that, rather than laying out your own opinion, you have focused on attacking others opinions.) Jellric's opinion is based upon his personal experience and the majority of trip reports he has read or heard.

---

Quote:

---

skystone said:
I never claimed my self to be enlightened.

---

is that enlightenment?