|
 skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
 drugs and spirituality/enlightenment 
#3376262 - 11/17/04 09:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I would really like to know the opinion of all of you folks here on this issue.
1.-----
Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?
In other words, are they the "real" thing, like having near death experiences or meditation? Are they a connection to ultimate truth
in a direct way, rather than just illusion.
Do you really feel connected, and do you really experience the energy of everything, or Is this just another form of hallucination?
2.-----
And allso If the answer to all that is YES, how do you explain it?
What is your theory? What happens to your brain that gives you these "abilities" so to speak?
3.-----
And how do you incorporate impaired abilities to function in this world, and visual hallucinations into this theory?
Looking forward to hearing your opinions and theories
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
JacquesCousteau
Being.
 
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3376280 - 11/17/04 10:02 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
1. Yes.
2. I consider it an intentionally induced NDE.
3. Side-effects.
|
Samuel
u-knit-e
Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 322
Loc: In the hearts of the A-Te...
Last seen: 3 months, 26 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3376314 - 11/17/04 10:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"Are they a connection to ultimate truth in a direct way, rather than just illusion.
Do you really feel connected, and do you really experience the energy of everything, or Is this just another form of hallucination?"
I think drugs are A way of doing these things. I don't really believe that they're the only way. They're not hallucinations, but rather a heightened awareness of what is really available in your head for you to learn.
Everything that you learn and experience on shrooms (at least for me) is something that I already know, something that already exists inside my head. Because of the heightened awareness from the drug I am able to teach it to myself through what I experience through "hallucinations"
|
Anonymous
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3376341 - 11/17/04 10:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
1 Yes to all.
2 I see it this way: Psychedelics don't give you extra "abilities." They simply remove our dis-abilities that are an inherent part of our bodies, and allow us an experience closer to our true being. In other words, this is similar to Aldous Huxley's "release valve" model of external stimuli. Our bodies actually handicap us in sobriety from seeing the true nature of reality.
3 We're "impaired" while under the influence because our bodies were meant to live on this plane, within a very limited scope of reality. When we glimpse into the higher realms we can no longer operate our bodies as well because they were not made to live permanently within the greater reality. Visual and other hallucinations are simply stimuli of the higher realms that we experience while our scope of reality is temporarily expanded due to the hallucinogens.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: ]
#3376429 - 11/17/04 10:35 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks for the answers so far, keep them comming.
a comment from me:
I share your opinion Max about us being disabled to find the trouth
in our "normal" state. It makes sense.
Now Samuel, I didn't say these are the only ways. I know that there are other ways. I was just wondering are drugs ONE OF THE WAYS.
So Max, your opinion is that EVERYTHING we experience in a trip is
comming from something more divine, even hallucinations, and is actually an "earthly" way of interpreting stimulations from higher realms? Then it would be like being stuck between two worlds, perviecing both of them at the same time. One with senses, and other with the "third eye", and then our primitive perception is mixing both of them into these visual hallucinations? Interesting..
Anyway. In my question number two, I was hoping for something more technical.
For example, how does seratonin2 have anything to do with touching deeper realities? Does it activate some parts of the brain that we don't use usually? Or some theory like that.
And speaking of brain. Did anyone ever recorded brain functions in trips (in science research) If yes, were there any unusual parts active that are a part of that 90% (or whatever) unused potential?
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
Mixomatosis
great ape
Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3376532 - 11/17/04 10:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?
No, I don't think they are, not in the way you mean it. Meditation, yoga, martial arts and the like are all methods you use to gain whatever it is you're seeking to gain. Taking mushrooms, even in a regimen is not practicing a method. It is inducing a "higher" state of mind, for sure, and the spiritual experiences and insights, even states of "enlightenment" from mushroom trips are "valid," but these experiences are just a flash and the shrooms are not going to bring you to enlightenment.
Something worth noting on this subject is that psychedelics aren't used to gain enlightenment by any cultures. They are used as tools to gain access to avenues of the mind wherein nature of disease can be identified and cured (plus some whacky witchcraft shit). I'm going to put my faith in historical example and go with the time-tested methods of meditation for enlightenment and mushrooms for.. whatever they're for, I'm not sure anymore so I haven't done them in a while.
how do you explain it?
Not even the most badass brain chemists know exactly what's going on, so I'm not going to give you a specific theory involving neurotransmitter acronyms. There are tons of different ways to describe the effects mushrooms have on your mind, if you've been around here for long you've heard 'em all.. If I had to break it down into a quick explanation I would say that the root of all these sensations of enlightenment and amazement you get on a shroom trip come from an amplification of your normal mind-processes. You're you only MORE so.
I've heard that psilocin triggers the neurons repeatedly whereas the neurons normal transmitter will only hit 'em once and then keep going. If this is true it would make sense that this machine-gun like action in between the synapses would be the material root of the mind-amplification that I spoke of above.
how do you incorporate impaired abilities to function in this world, and visual hallucinations into this theory?
epiphenomena
|
oceansize
fuckin' right.
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3376683 - 11/17/04 11:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
skystone said:
So Max, your opinion is that EVERYTHING we experience in a trip is
comming from something more divine,
Anyway. In my question number two, I was hoping for something more technical.
For example, how does seratonin2 have anything to do with touching deeper realities? Does it activate some parts of the brain that we don't use usually? Or some theory like that.
And speaking of brain. Did anyone ever recorded brain functions in trips (in science research) If yes, were there any unusual parts active that are a part of that 90% (or whatever) unused potential?
Yeah, a few interesting studies have been done:
Olaf Blanke produced OOB experiences in an epileptic woman in 2002. Electrical stimulation was applied to her right angular gyrus of her temporal lobe, and the stronger the stimulation, the stronger the out of body experience.
Andrew Newberg found that when Buddhist monks meditate and Franciscan nuns pray, an spot in the posterior superior parietal lobe called the orientation association area showed abnormally low activity.
Micheal Persinger created a hat that stimulates the brain with electromagnets, creating microsezuires. He has brought on spiritual, supernatural, OOB, episodes in over 600 people studied.
These same states that can be drug induced seem to result from the brain almost "malfunctioning" instead of the opposite. Normal healthy brain functioning seems to obstruct these states......
As far as the 90% thing, that is a myth. You use the whole thing on a pretty regular basis, just not at the same instant.
--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|
JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland 
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Mixomatosis]
#3376691 - 11/17/04 11:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Psychedelics is like art, no wait...it IS art, for the most part it is the same reality you have everyday, just now the brain is being tickled, an artist could paint a picture of shapes and colors and to some people it's nothing more than a mess, but to him and some other people that see it, it means so much more than just shapes and colors they see a deep meaning to it, that's the best I can describe what psychedelic drugs are like and what they do to me.
tripping paints spirituality in my head, I don't think that makes any since to you, but i guess my spirituality/enlightenment is undiscribable to anyone else but me.
--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------
"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
|
RedEyeSamurai
Non-Prophet
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 47
Loc: The Valley
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
|
 Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3376923 - 11/18/04 12:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Sorry to not go in your three question format... I am lazy.
I think that every individual has a set way they see the world based on thier genetics and past experiences. Drugs such as LSD and Acid (and weed and ritalin and.....) affect pathways that the electrical and chemical proccess take. This gives the same individual a brand new way to see the world. Once the drugs ware off you are left with two images of the world. When the way one sees the world while chemicaly dosed is compared to stone sober a much greater overall appreciation is noticed by our ability to know what is what. Some people take as religion, some spiritual enlightenment, I call it getting to know myself and the natural surroundings that make up my universe. 
|
 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3377096 - 11/18/04 01:05 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Why would you believe that psychedelics are a key to enlightenment? Do you think acid-heads are wisemen? What happened to Hendrix and Morrison? Were Leary or McKennna saints or merely explorers of the inner world?
Ingesting entheogens is a unique experience like visiting another land. Do you think that going to Antarctica will bring you wisdom? They may expand your views of the world, or at least get you to question your firmly-held beliefs, but they, in and of themselves, will not "make" you moral or holy.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3377113 - 11/18/04 01:10 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It all depends on the traveler.
|
CleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...
Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3377190 - 11/18/04 01:47 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
who is the one realizing enlightenment? who is the one? who isnt the one? ego traps all in this world.
--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?
this is the purpose
|
DMTelepath
Nut
Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 567
Loc: States of America
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3377234 - 11/18/04 02:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Swami said:
Why would you believe that psychedelics are a key to enlightenment? Do you think acid-heads are wisemen? What happened to Hendrix and Morrison? Were Leary or McKennna saints or merely explorers of the inner world?
Ingesting entheogens is a unique experience like visiting another land. Do you think that going to Antarctica will bring you wisdom? They may expand your views of the world, or at least get you to question your firmly-held beliefs, but they, in and of themselves, will not "make" you moral or holy.
This reminds me of a quote "Buddhism is like a finger pointing at the moon. Don't confuse the moon with the finger." Because psychedelics aren't going to make you a wise person, and can definitely lead you to odd places of insanity. The first time i really grasped the essence of meditation, was on mushrooms. From then on, i carried my freedom with me everywhere i went! Hey, part of that's going in my sig!
Edit: Dammit, i just realized i said psychedelics [bold]are[/bold] going to make you a wise man. Sorry, stupid typo. That would sound pretty idiotic.
--------------------
Me, Myself, and GOD
Edited by DMTelepath (11/18/04 09:50 AM)
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3377259 - 11/18/04 02:13 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I think psychedelics disrupt our regular patterns of thought, and force us to reconstruct reality as we see it. However, there is no set pattern for that reconstruction, so while they can lead to enlightenment or higher spiritual awareness, they can also lead to self-destructive behavior, delusions of grandeur, or escapism. It depends on the user. You get out what you put in.
--------------------
 
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3378167 - 11/18/04 09:24 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
These questions were regarding people who do experience some kind of "enlightenment" in the easter-religion sense of the word.
I did not ask about those who just have colorful trips. I didn't ask
if these drugs always cause it in everyone.
I just asked what do you think, in those cases when people suddenly feel that they understand everything, and feel the energy of the cosmos, is it a real connection with a "higher self" or just
a vierd hallucination alltogether.
Swami. You should read my original questions better. I never
said that people using acid are enlightened.
In order to start talking about this you need to first accept the concept of enlightenment as a genuine thing, and not an illusion.
And after that the question is, are those states of mind in meditation the same states SOME people get on acid and shrooms.
If you don't belive in anything beyond this world, both of these states are illusions (drugs and meditation).
One point of view would be that only meditation and death is a genuine way to enlightenment and that drugs only cause hallucinations
out of whatever reason. The other point of view would be that
psychadelics really cause a state of consciousness similar to that
in meditation or death.
Of course the third point of view would be of course that neither meditation or drugs cause anything. That it is all an illusion and that we are just stupid primates that just die.
But this point of view has nothingt to do with this thread.
So my question was sent to those who have either of the first two points of view.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
relativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3378545 - 11/18/04 11:00 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
I think psychedelics disrupt our regular patterns of thought, and force us to reconstruct reality as we see it. However, there is no set pattern for that reconstruction, so while they can lead to enlightenment or higher spiritual awareness, they can also lead to self-destructive behavior, delusions of grandeur, or escapism. It depends on the user. You get out what you put in.
i also see them bypassing the filters of reality that your brain uses when not under the influence of psychedelics. I dont see it as necessarily giving enlightenment, just a potential to understand more. it may or may not allow the user to become somewhat enlightened.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3378859 - 11/18/04 12:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
skystone said:
RGV Simplified the question to 3 points in order to focus answer:
1.----- drugs - enlightenment - path - real thing
2.----- how do you explain it?
3.----- how do you incorporate impaired abilities
1. The experiences on drugs or of anything can be used by a person who has a spiritual quest, but the experiences on drugs should be used cautiously in the context of the quest, of discovery of self, of states of mind, and how the experience relates to nature. Experiences of anything - not just drugs -can easily be used out of context and so can result in extrapolation and delusion.
Spiritual questors often experience "psychic" epiphanies, states of rapture etc. with or without drugs, but many who are not overtly spiritual will have rapture like experiences on drugs and may be turned to a spiritual quest to help integrate the experience.
2. In a spiritual quest, the joy or rapture will usually follow meditation (in jhana's) or psychic breakdowns after a great deal of effort, prayer, sufi turning, & maybe some fasting... the nature of the rapture will be vibrations or physical joy and often some accompanying auditory and visual manifestations that are as or more real as this world appears to be.
I use the term joy as it is used in jhana descriptions in the literature (buddhist meditation), and it is not always pleasureable.
The reason rapture like experiences occur with some drugs (and emotional states) involves some reflection on the nature of Jhana, and some consideration of the basic effects of psychedelics, and I am not refering to the mere chemical action.
Jhana follows the centering efforts of concentration in which a single point of focus is returned to and eventually the attention becomes effortless, sustained by mere nominal effort (more like). The mind seems to be still, the concentration seems to continue almost as a standing wave. In fact the concentration becomes supported by mind moments that are fading more slowly, which makes it easier to concentrate on the same thing. Since mind moments are fading more slowly they overlap more pronouncedly, and a sense of a more intense reality dawns. I call this effect FRAME STACKING.
With psychedelic or entheogen use, the mind goes into a Frame Stacking mode as well, in which mind moments fade more slowly but the input continues at the same rate. this creates the densification - multidimensional - expanded consciousness etc. which can provide the same kinds of manifestations as meditation.
Neither are more real, though getting there on your own steam and emerging without any sticky mind states at will is a benefit. (One can emerge from meditative jhana in seconds, but not so from inebriated/entheogenized states.)
3. I think you can encorporate your experiences into your life by being reflective, and observant of nature. You have to want to find your own path, and if it involves inebrients, do be careful and keep that part separate from responsibility chaged duties like driving etc.
--------------------
|
a_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
#3378933 - 11/18/04 12:30 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
by drugs i think you're assuming substances that produce altered states of consciousness. you literally are what you eat and the brain is no exception. these substances are neurotransmitters, they work like an operative system. imagine our brains usually operate with old ms-dos and all of sudden you can upgrade it to windowsxp for a while. it's a little bit like that.
of course there was great software running on ms-dos and there's plenty of crap made nowadays for the xp. it's not the operative system that determines the quality of the software you run on it. but a better operative system gives you a lot more potential.
|
Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,887
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 29 days, 6 hours
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: a_h_w]
#3378998 - 11/18/04 12:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"use the operator, and you grouped your potential"
-unknown :P
--------------------
--------------------
Disclaimer!?
Edited by Gomp (11/18/04 12:44 PM)
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Gomp]
#3379129 - 11/18/04 01:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Reading all that, I just had another thought.
I don't know if this is logical or not, but
since psychadelics and meditation/NDE (and other "real" ways)
can lead you to similar or same experiences/thoughts/conclusions-about-universe , then both of those ways are either false or genuine.
It would be too much of a coincedence that one of them is
somehow "real" and other is just a mindless delusion.
So either all those ways are real, or all of those ways are delusions.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
The_Visionaire
Torch
Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3379145 - 11/18/04 01:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
My outlook on this:
After ingesting a large dose of psychedelics the relative mechanical and conditioned clockwork of the brain is flooded with chemicals, breaking the boundaries of mundane thought. Passive thoughts and 'felts' flows over to active thinking and feeling.
When taking large doses, complete chaos may appear (i.e. not knowing who you are or what is happening). This is a phase of great discomfort, but not a bad-trip.
After this phase a new order will crystallize from the chaos and the compass of the self will be set.
I would compare this with chaos theory, where a new order can spontaneously emerge from a completely chaotic system when the system is subjected to an external attractor. I assume that the attractor affecting the chaotic brainfunctions is not physical (in the sense we usually use the word) but of a subtler order. The flow of the Tao sweeping harmoniously through your mind perhaps 
The point is that this new order is a gestalt, and is manifest from higher orders to the lower, not the other way. The strange attractor leavs its mark on the chaotic system, the chaotic system does not change the attractor.
"the subtle is more powerful" -David Bohm
Many will experience this newfound crystalline order as enlightenment, I know I did anyway.
Strange thing, in this pure and holy state of mind, I felt I could answer all the important questions, but when I asked myself "what happens when you become normal? Where does enlightenment go?", I had no idea how to solve the problem. Perhaps since I wouldn't go along with the thought that it was psilocybin that did this to me. "This is the power of pure being!", I persisted  . Well, eventually I had to succumb to tiredness and loss of power.
After the holy fire had burned enlightenment through my veins, the ashes that remained obstructed the flow. The moring after I felt drained of energy.
Bottom line; we need more power! A steady supply; some fuel that doesn't leave behind waste-products. This can be achieved with various spiritual/martial exercises i suppose, but the lazy man I am, I really would have prefered an easy way out 
--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3379242 - 11/18/04 01:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't know if this is logical or not,
It's not.
but since psychadelics and meditation/NDE (and other "real" ways)
can lead you to similar or same experiences
Ten years of meditation never gave me (or other meditators that I know) one experience even remotely like that obtained by dropping acid or eating shrooms.
/thoughts/conclusions-about-universe ,
If you think they lead you to the same thoughts then you have probably not spent much time at Politics and Law. Before shrooms America was divided into hawks and doves. After shrooms America is divided into hawks and doves.
It would be too much of a coincedence that one of them is
somehow "real" and other is just a mindless delusion.
As your premise is flawed, the conclusion must be flawed.
So either all those ways are real, or all of those ways are delusions.
See the thread "False Dichotomies".
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3379344 - 11/18/04 02:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Swami, what does America and politics have to do with spirituality?
Why would drugs change America or the world? It's not like every trip you have will lead you to enlightenment. With most people, most of the time, trips are just cool hallucinations.
So ten years never gave you the same results, then you don't fall under the cathegory of this thread. We are talking about those rare instances where people say they experience the same thing with drugs and with NDE or meditation. Like OBE's and ego-death.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
Edited by skystone (11/18/04 02:26 PM)
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3379549 - 11/18/04 03:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If a hundred thousand people trip 20 times, and out of that one person one time has an enlightening experience, it would be scientifically inaccurate to link cause and effect between substance and mind-state, no?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3379775 - 11/18/04 04:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Well, its not like there is one person on every hundred thousant that says he has experienced an enlightening experience. On higher dosages of LSD, it is not even unusual to say that.
And as for those who do not experience anything regarding one-nes, energy flowing through everything, universal love, ego-death or other feelings or experiences that might be linked to something beyond this plane of existence, most of them are not using sufficient dosage, or
just can't let go of their ego's and the analitic-symbolic nature of our human thinking.
Allso, I belive that a trip is a two-way communication. The chemicals
clean up the stage, set the lights, and the show can begin, but this is an interactive show. I belive expectations do play a big role.
And I belive that you must give yourself to the trip, leave everything behind, and just give yourself. Same as with meditation.
I don't practice meditation, but I suspect that you can't just sit there are wait for something to happen, you can only fall to sleep that way. It is a technique.
You know those keyboards that have all kinds of shortcut buttons
on top that activate programs like word, other windows friendly functions etc. So when you want to clean the keyboard with a cloth, you end up pushing everything, and the next thing you know your desktop is going wild. All kinds of programs start poping up, it's a chaos.
I belive it's the same with psychadelics. It just activates all kinds of programs in your brain. It's a chaos. And one of those programs might be some kind of "dial-up" connection with your deeper (or higher, whatever you prefer to call it) parts of consciousness that
might lead you to a state of hyper awareness of life and the universe.
In some people, the button for that is just not hit. Others get freaked out. And some know how to as Leary says "surf the waves of chaos" and turn of all those chaotic programs on the desktop and just keep the one they want.
Considering everything I have said above, I do not think that
it is inacurate to connect such an altered state of mind with drugs.
There is one more reason for that:
You live like 80 years, and out of all the days in your life, your
"enlightened" experience just had to happed the same day you took acid or shrooms, and it had to happen a few hours after you took it.
Now isn't that a coincedence?
So yes, I belive if you epxerience something like that DURING a trip,
then it probably was triggered by the trip.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
deff
mysticlove
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,185
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 7 hours, 36 minutes
|
Re: need a bus pass to chicago asap [Re: skystone]
#3379806 - 11/18/04 04:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
the concept of enlightenment is a fallacy itself
it is adopted prior to development, and during development one drops many unneeded and seemingly 'false' values and barriers, and yet usually hold this ideal.
let go let go let go. see what's left. or rather, be what's left 
there is no fine line between unenlightened/enlightened. it is a subjective interpretations (as is everything), and so only an external observer would apply the label upon another. 'you' will never cross over from unenlightenment to enlightenment, nor will such a label be applicable to yourself.
you're either there and don't realize it, or you realize it. either way, there's no difference.
Drugs shift awareness. They do not shift position. Let go let go let go 
--------------------
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: need a bus pass to chicago asap [Re: deff]
#3379908 - 11/18/04 04:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Well, yea perhapse I should have simplified my first questions in the begining.
There is always a less complicated way to say things that I usually do. I guess the meaning of my original question was:
Do drugs shift awareness (as deff puts it) and really expand consciousness.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
deff
mysticlove
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,185
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 7 hours, 36 minutes
|
Re: need a bus pass to chicago asap [Re: skystone]
#3379921 - 11/18/04 04:35 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
there is no absolute value to judge that by
if you consider them to, then they do
there's just a lot of people, nothing more
--------------------
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3379939 - 11/18/04 04:40 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
skystone said:
Reading all that, I just had another thought.
I don't know if this is logical or not, but
since psychadelics and meditation/NDE (and other "real" ways)
can lead you to similar or same experiences/thoughts/conclusions-about-universe , then both of those ways are either false or genuine.
It would be too much of a coincedence that one of them is
somehow "real" and other is just a mindless delusion.
So either all those ways are real, or all of those ways are delusions.
yes,
many meditators begin to believe that they are something special - it can get unbearable.
likely based upon illusions that emerge from their conditioning during the process, epiphany can just be bunk.
there ws a lovely painitng of the temptation of St. Antony and many of Buddha being challenged by MARA this is what you are pointing out and it is 100% valid.
no methods of expanding awareness guarantee clarity of approach, that is part of ongoing mindfulness and an orientation toward the middle way.
meantime, swami's long and unsatisfying history with meditation is an indicator that some will not be able to go to some longed for places.
possibly the longing is too great.
--------------------
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3380019 - 11/18/04 04:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
One point of view would be that only meditation and death is a genuine way to enlightenment and that drugs only cause hallucinations
out of whatever reason. The other point of view would be that
psychadelics really cause a state of consciousness similar to that
in meditation or death.
This is something I was pondering about for quite a while, Skystone. Do psychedelics really open doors of perception through which we can get access to other, deeper realities.
After my first and second shroom trip I was blown away (in a positive way). After the third and fourth trip I started to have some serious doubts about whether psychedic trip opens doors of another reality or just distorts this reality (i.e. messes up the brain). Those latter trips were not bad in any way, but I didn't really grasp the 'meaning' so to speak.
After my two recent shroom trips, however, I concluded that it is much more probable that psychedelics do indeed open one's mind to different realities which really exist, that they do not produce merely a twisted form of ordinary reality.
For this I have two definite proofs. Before I took mushrooms, my visualisation skills were mediocre if not below average. E.g. When I listened to music I was able to imagine some visualisations, but they were all pretty bland.
After several shroom trips, however, my visualisation skills have gone from level 2 to level 2000. Now even when I'm not shroomed I can think of so complex images in motion that had been totally out of my reach before taking psychedelics. And these images are not superficial kaleidoscopes, they are like... like my imagination broke up all the chains and gone totally WILD in a positive way of the word. WOW! What a difference. Give me any song and I'll make the most perfect video for that song. No, not only one, but hundreds of them. And let somebody tell me that psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression.
The other thing that happened to me was that while bemushroomed I was able to compose and literally hear the most amazing music (in total silence). I was kind of suspicious about that at first. I thought I was just hallucinating, my brain simply repeating some tunes that I had heard before. I managed to record some of the tunes after the trip, and lo and behold - they were not copied from someone else's work, I really invented them myself.
The richness of imagery and soundscapes is so utterly convincing and complex that I am quite sure it is not a product of a hallucination or a disordered mind. I'm now much more inclined to think that this is in fact the result of insight into deeper realities that had always existed in my mind but of which I was unaware before.
However, psychedelics open these doors only for a short period of time. All my life I haven't been trained in the fields of visual expression and music, so although I can visualise pictures and hear music much much better than before, I still lack technical skills to manifest and materialize them.
I know all this might sound pretty irrelevant to your question, but for me it was the most striking changes psychedelics produced, and I liken them to being more aware of my abilites (which is a first step towards enlightment, I think).
The only thing that worries me is that after these last two trips I became very depressed and in some sort of a limbo. I never felt so negative in all my life. Who knows why's that. Perhaps a phase?
Edited by alphaone (11/18/04 05:08 PM)
|
Anonymous
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3380088 - 11/18/04 05:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
psychedelics have their place, but at some point you have to be able to do it without the drugs.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
#3380102 - 11/18/04 05:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
meantime, swami's long and unsatisfying history with meditation is an indicator that some will not be able to go to some longed for places.
possibly the longing is too great.
I never said meditation did not teach me anything; merely that it led to no mystical places nor cosmic wisdom. No training is wasted. I now prefer meditation-in-action such as sports as opposed to sitting meditation.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3380286 - 11/18/04 05:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
alphaone:
"After several shroom trips, however, my visualisation skills have gone from level 2 to level 2000. Now even when I'm not shroomed I can think of so complex images in motion that had been totally out of my reach before taking psychedelics. And these images are not superficial kaleidoscopes, they are like... like my imagination broke up all the chains and gone totally WILD in a positive way of the word. WOW! What a difference. Give me any song and I'll make the most perfect video for that song. No, not only one, but hundreds of them. And let somebody tell me that psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression."
alphaone:
I know what you mean, I know the feeling. Only I had it all my life.
You know those rochah ink blots? Well, I can tell you stories and stories about them. My friends think I'm crazy.
My imagination runs wild every day, and I see all these images, films
running through my head when I am alone and stimulated by some surroundings. It is wonderfull.
This is why I like taking looong walks alone in unformiliar parts of my town.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3380315 - 11/18/04 05:57 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
swami
I really do not know what you did for 10 yrs or why your statement above seemed to indicate that it was unsatisfying to such a degree, but I am sure that you find what you seek. i.e. I hope you are keeping up your progress to your sporting goal(s).
maybe you can be more clear about the type of meditation (more than a single descriptive word would be great) you investigated (immersed in for 10 yrs), but feel free to be as discrete as necessary.
--------------------
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
#3380336 - 11/18/04 06:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
And let somebody tell me that psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression.
Psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression. Anything else?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3380484 - 11/18/04 06:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Swami
I don't question your logic , you seem to operate on
healthy reasoning in debates, but I have noticed since I have came here that you put a certain amount of some internal subtle and masked feelings in those discussions. Of course you will probably denie that, but it seems to me that most things you say have a negative note in them. As if you are fighting a war here.
And it all comes in a form of skepticism towards everything.
It's as every discussion with you does not begin with a neutral ground (and then starts leaning towards something), but starts with a negation and then is supose to lean towards afirmation but of course it doesn't.
Let me just say that being naive (what I suspect you hate most) is the same as being too sceptical, just reversed.
Some people blindly belive that something exists, and some blindly belive that it does not. And both of these blindly believe.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3380508 - 11/18/04 06:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Ah... welcome to Swami. 
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3380571 - 11/18/04 07:05 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Drug users HATE negative misinformation such as LSD will alter your DNA, but LOVE positive misinformation such as LSD will increase your creativity.
Drug users HATE negative misinformation such as LSD will make you psychotic, but LOVE positive misinformation such as LSD will make you enlightened.
I HATE misinformation. Period. Guess that is somehow negatively biased.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3380605 - 11/18/04 07:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
some utterances are just for the sake of the noise they make.
that is the essence of art.
in this way swami is an expressioniste
psychedellic is part of my creative process for both fine art (just got a gallery!! woohoo!) and for object oriented programming and system design, but I am not going to make any big deal about that. on the other hand I do not engage in competitive sports with balls or other projectiles.
--------------------
|
Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,887
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 29 days, 6 hours
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
#3380612 - 11/18/04 07:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"You were right when you told me you were wrong. "
-unknown :P
--------------------
--------------------
Disclaimer!?
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Gomp]
#3380643 - 11/18/04 07:17 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
But Swami. You don't know that. You don't know anything.
Nobody knows anything for sure. All we can do is debate without any strong opinions.
And you seem to be so sure of everything.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
teen
Yeee Haaww
Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 242
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3380662 - 11/18/04 07:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Mushrooms have made me become aware of all sorts of stuff I never was before.
It seems that whatever you need to achieve, you have to do some sort of material action to convince your mind to do something, like moving your legs about to get to a different room, or eating those damn mushrooms to be able to finally see certain things.
--------------------
Don't give me that load of bunk~!
|
ld50negative1
lethal dosage
Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 821
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: The_Visionaire]
#3380761 - 11/18/04 07:38 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
1. No
2..3... obviously nothing to say about that.
Why is it that only AFTER a trip it is that someone comes to the conclusion that they were "spiritually enlightened" or could be in future trips due to euphoric feelings/thoughts etc.?
As far as I'm concerned your spirit is seperate from your body, but they are still linked. In theory, said individuals could come to this conclusion because the chemicals interact with points in your brain designed to intereact with your spirit. Therefore, the whole "spiritual" experience of psychedelics are completely unreal and are in fact chemically induced delusions.
--------------------
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3380816 - 11/18/04 07:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression. Anything else?
As far as I am concerned, they do. And pretty damn spectacularly. I have witnessed it experientially. It's proven beyond any doubt. Anything else?
Swami, you have never peeked into my head, have you? So how can you give such blatant statements? Your logic goes something like this: if Swami and his friends haven't experienced something, it doesn't exist.
You pretend to be an authority on everything that is at odds with the present scientific model of reality. While a healthy dose of scepticism is always strongly *advised* to everyone (so as not to fall in trap to believe in everything he is told or has percieved), your present position and action is everything BUT healthy scpeticism.
Sadly, you're merely pumping up your ego, by trying to debunk everything that looks suspicious or is not supported by hard evidence of modern science at this moment. And you are obviously deriving great pleasure in the process, thinking how great you must appear to all those people who failed to see what you've shown them as obvious fallacy, and how impressive your persona looks in the eyes of those people. 
There is nothing new about that position. Don't be fooled that all people are stunned by your exibitionism. See, some of us can see through your little ego games.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
#3381145 - 11/18/04 08:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Sadly, you're merely pumping up your ego,
Even more sad is yet another newbie (about 186 by my count) who is UNABLE to respond to (or ignore) a post WITHOUT playing the "Let's psychoanalyze the poster" game.
How very refreshing. *yawn*
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3381166 - 11/18/04 09:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
And you seem to be so sure of everything.
I am sure of that which I am sure of; which does not include "everything".
Should I waffle and indulge in temerity and uncertainty?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3381273 - 11/18/04 09:18 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Being sure is an illusion of knowing something.
Knowing is an illusion itself. Nothing is certain. Or at least
we can not come in contact with this certainty.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3381346 - 11/18/04 09:38 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Being sure is an illusion of knowing something.
Knowing is an illusion itself. Nothing is certain.
And how are you certain of this?
Editor's note: this form of double-speakian conversation is classic newbie phase II
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
AntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3381412 - 11/18/04 09:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Why don't you take a peek into the PAL forum here?
I've yet to come across a more close minded, egoistic, self interested, war mongering crowd than the conservatives and the Libertarians there.
Maybe it's just my very subjective definition of an enlightened mind that's all wrong. Maybe true spirituality lies in collecting personal riches, or in killing off "them" where "them" is the current thorn in the eye of Great Leader? Or maybe the true goal is to rid the planet of all human life. All human dignity at any rate.
And I'm hardly one to talk, just look at my sig.
--------------------
|
Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3381418 - 11/18/04 09:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Psychedelics do not and cannot guarantee a higher level of spirituality, but what they can offer is an unparalleled opportunity for it. They are only a tool. And tools are neutral in the sense that their value is determined by how they are used. You can use a hammer to build a house or hit someone in the head. You get out of it what put into it.
2) My "theory" is that psychedelics loosen the attachment of awareness to the physical world, allowing us the opportunity to redeploy our awareness to our home plane- the spiritual world which created and interpenetrates everything in physical existence. Some people call manifestations of this world "hallucinations".
#3Q: How do you incorporate impaired abilities to function in this world, and visual hallucinations into this theory?
This is answered by my answer to question number two.
--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3381483 - 11/18/04 10:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Swami said:
And how are you certain of this?
Editor's note: this form of double-speakian conversation is classic newbie phase II
I never said I am certain of it.
And what does me being a "newbie" have to do with anything?
A person that has first discovered this forum is somehow more
worth listening to than a person that has found it recently?
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Jellric]
#3381509 - 11/18/04 10:17 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
but what they can offer is an unparalleled opportunity for it
What do you base this upon?
You can use a hammer to build a house or hit someone in the head. You get out of it what put into it.
What can I put into whiskey to get something out of it?
allowing us the opportunity to redeploy our awareness to our home plane
Are cartoon characters part of the spiritual world?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3381550 - 11/18/04 10:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Pretty good first thread for a rookie. 
Don't get too stressed out by our friend, Swami. There are a lot of believers on a forum like this and that creates a niche for predators like Swami. He wants you to think he's a shark, but he's really just the Ultimate bottom feeder!  
--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3381554 - 11/18/04 10:25 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I never said I am certain of it.
If you are uncertain that "Knowing is an illusion itself," why would you possibly reply with that statement to show me my "error"?
And what does me being a "newbie" have to do with anything?
1. You come in violating the rules.
2. You don't know anything about me or any other poster, are unlikely to have any credentials in psychoanalysis, yet feel free to offer your "valuable" insights into the perceived flaws of another.
A person that has first discovered this forum is somehow more
worth listening to than a person that has found it recently?
A person that debates the topic and not the poster is more worth listening to. Most people that have been around are aware of this.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3381572 - 11/18/04 10:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Swami said:[/iWhat can I put into whiskey to get something out of it?
You can muddle in some marachino cheries and sugar, add a splash of 7 or soda and get an Old Fashioned.
Orrrr you can add some sweet and sour mix and a splash of 7up and get a whiskey sour. 
And out of that, you get a tacky wedding reception.
--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Jellric]
#3381638 - 11/18/04 10:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
but he's really just the Ultimate bottom feeder!
I was wrong skystone. *the crowd gasps* Even some old-timers fail to follow the rules of philosophical debate.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
#3381927 - 11/18/04 11:40 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
AntiMeme said:
I've yet to come across a more close minded, egoistic, self interested, war mongering crowd than the conservatives and the Libertarians there.
Maybe it's just my very subjective definition of an enlightened mind that's all wrong. Maybe true spirituality lies in collecting personal riches, or in killing off "them" where "them" is the current thorn in the eye of Great Leader? Or maybe the true goal is to rid the planet of all human life. All human dignity at any rate.
Or maybe it's to try and actually understand the other side, rather than make ridiculous and outright false generalizations about those you disagree with?
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
oceansize
fuckin' right.
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3381953 - 11/18/04 11:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
As far as everyone's comments on meditation, especially the non practitioners, here is a parable for you: A young monk ran to his master and proclaimed: "I have seen the Buddha in my meditations several nights now! What should I do if he returns?" The senior monk barely acknowledged the boy, telling him: "Kill him."
In my meditations, I get plenty of what you might call 'visuals'. If I concentrate on an object, it may change colors, dance etc. If I am lying I may think i have melted fully into the floor. All of these things, any authority will tell you, are distractions from your concentration, your brain resisting the strain your focus creates. Changing your focus to these delusions definately ruins your concentration and mental state. I think this closely parallels using drugs as a path to enlightenment. (Not to say I don't enjoy immersing myself into hallucenations. )
It seems to me a good size group of posters here think that being passive agressive or sardonic is somehow better than plainly disagreeing or speaking their mind.
alphaone: Do me a favor, next time you hear a song and you think you can create 100 perfect videos, give it a shot. I'm not being sarcastic, I get the same feeling of greatly expanded creativity when I quickly roll an idea through my head after a fat trip, but when I put it to the test........ Just try it out for me.
--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|
AntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3381968 - 11/18/04 11:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Nah, I don't think it's that.
Yes, it's a generalization, but I don't think it's ridiculous. It actually fits you in particular quite well. What with the first human right being the right not to pay taxes, or otherwise contribute to society.
Think what a nice car you could buy with all that tax money!
PS. I would be a Libertarian myself if it weren't for the fact that it wouldn't work because of people like yourself. It's ok to be an idealist, but sometimes you've got to be pragmatic.
--------------------
Edited by AntiMeme (11/19/04 12:01 AM)
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
#3382020 - 11/19/04 12:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Thank you for proving my point.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3382052 - 11/19/04 12:14 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Wrong again, Swamo! (There's a new nick for ya! Sorry, but I have copyrighted it and will sell it to you for a nomimal fee
*Gets all serious* Note: I sincerely apologize for addressing you personally, Swami. I know we aren't allowed to do that. 
Even some old-timers fail to follow the rules of philosophical debate.
The "rules" of this debate were set by skystone; We were asked to give our opinions and I have done my best at doing so. (I do note that, rather than laying out your own opinion, you have focused on attacking others opinions.) Jellric's opinion is based upon his personal experience and the majority of trip reports he has read or heard.
Do you disagree with what I have said?
If so, why?
--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
|
AntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3382056 - 11/19/04 12:15 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You would have a point if you assume I haven't read your posts.
Look, I know these systems we're living in are terrible things. Believe me, I would want a world without being forced into them.
But I also see where the average Libertarian is coming from. Greed and self interest. And from reading your posts, you seem like the average Libertarian to me. This wouldn't be a problem for me, I know how to find my way if I have to. But not all our brothers and sisters are equally strong. And there are too many of them and too many of you.
--------------------
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
#3382069 - 11/19/04 12:19 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
More self-deceptions. Do you want to actually make an effort to understand where others are coming from, or would you rather make biased assumptions based on what you would like to believe?
PS: Your mind-reading abilities suck.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
AntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3382081 - 11/19/04 12:22 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Again; I have read your posts. I don't need mind-reading abilities. I've also read enough by other Libertarians to know where the average comes from.
--------------------
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
#3382092 - 11/19/04 12:24 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Well you certain aren't getting all this from my posts. I never claimed any of these motivations which you are projecting onto me.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
AntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3382109 - 11/19/04 12:29 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Of course you're not claiming that. Nobody would claim that about themselves, now would they? But it's not hard to defer what you've got in mind from your stated opinions.
I might be wrong about you, but your politics seem very clear to me.
--------------------
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
#3382132 - 11/19/04 12:32 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
They seem clear to you because you have already decided what you want to believe about me, and will not let a silly thing like facts stand in your way. I'm done with this discussion. If you ever want to actually know what I believe and why I believe it, I'll be happy to discuss it with you. But you've obviously already made up your mind about me, so any attempt to convince you otherwise will be futile. Ironic that you would call me the close-minded one.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
AntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3382170 - 11/19/04 12:41 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Hey, I said I might be wrong about you. I mean that.
But I have discussed several related issues with you (some under my old username), and that is simply the impression I've gotten. I don't excpect anybody to accept that characterization of themselves, but I call them as I see them.
This is probably the wrong place to discuss it further though.
--------------------
Edited by AntiMeme (11/19/04 12:42 AM)
|
oceansize
fuckin' right.
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
#3382281 - 11/19/04 01:18 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
both of you shut the fuck up.
--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: oceansize]
#3382408 - 11/19/04 02:01 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I can feel the enlightenment.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3382918 - 11/19/04 05:39 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Even more sad is yet another newbie (about 186 by my count) who is UNABLE to respond to (or ignore) a post WITHOUT playing the "Let's psychoanalyze the poster" game.
I did respond to your post. I said that psychedelics greatly enhanced my visualisation skills and creativity. This in turn potentially reflects on my ability to express artistically. Why "potentially"? See below.
I also explained that, since I have never been trained in the fields of visual design and music, my newly found visualisation skills and ability to "compose" music in my head most probably will not be put to use, i.e. will not be materialized because I lack the practical skills to materialize them. There is a difference between having a picture in your mind and putting that picture on paper. The difference is in one's training in that field which cannot be acquired overnight but is the result of many years of training. For instance, I would have to learn how to play synthesizers, or how to use complicated animation software. I'm not saying it cannot be done, just merely that my life thus far went into another direction and it would take me a lot of effort to switch profession. I assume you can agree with me on that.
What is left unanswered, oh Swami the Great?
Seriously, you never heard of increased creativity and artistic expression as a result of using psychedelics? How do you explain the fact that most musicians have taken psychedelics at least some time in their life (some are doing it on regular basis), and are constantly claiming that psychedelics do have salutary influence on their imagination?
As for psychoanalysis of your distinguished ego - don't put into my mouth something I did not say. It doesn't take knowledge of psychology to perceive what kind of character you are projecting here. The very fact that you are labelling other people as "newbies" that "violated the rules" (what rules?) etc. makes you open to criticism, not psychoanalysis.
What on earth gives you the right to set the rules for philosophical discussion and call other people newbies? Because you have made several thousand posts so far and the poster of the original message hasn't? Because you consider yourself an expert on philosophical way of thinking and others are 'newbies' by default? That's a very poor argument in debates.
Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 07:46 AM)
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Jellric]
#3382935 - 11/19/04 06:01 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The "rules" of this debate were set by skystone; We were asked to give our opinions and I have done my best at doing so. (I do note that, rather than laying out your own opinion, you have focused on attacking others opinions.) Jellric's opinion is based upon his personal experience and the majority of trip reports he has read or heard.
Quite correct. Skystone wanted to know what other people think about the questions he posted, not endless debate between posters about whose opinion is valid and whose isn't.
If Swami had any integrity and respect for other people, he would have expressed his opinion and left others to express theirs. But no, he has to use the occasion to bash other people's opinions and ideas because it's such a great opportunity to gratify his ego. Sigh.
.to Skystone
If you haven't yet read "The Doors of Perception" by Aldous Huxley, I strongly advise you to do so. There he covers all of your questions and gives his ideas. Here's the link:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/doors.htm
Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 06:10 AM)
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
creativity [Re: skystone]
#3382976 - 11/19/04 07:05 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
there is no question that psychedellics increase my creativity.
they enhance an essential creative aspect which is the state of mind which fosters stacked contexts, overlayed images, blended conforms, less processed sensations, etc.
the problem is always retention and integration with normal mind states.
some psychedellic materials make you exhausted. others are just too hard to get.
I find salvia's short duration and my habit of keeping a pad and pen close at hand very helpful, for catching combinations that my mundane personality habits would overlook or process out of existence.
These unusual combinations I can use in my work (fine art and computer work as well).
A way of looking at things also emerges from mindful psychedellic use which permits less processed input or natural fragments, rather than always full on consensual reality. This is very useful for appreciating the work of others and in keeping the mind open.
the number one aspect of being able to create art is to be able to appreciate the art of others and nature itself. to be able to fillup with the beauty of what is mostly just passed over and to be able to express it.
expression while on psychedellics, however is lacking, and please do not drive.
--------------------
Edited by redgreenvines (11/19/04 07:06 AM)
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
|
Finaly we are back on the topic.
If anyone else wishes to express themself about the original questions, or the new question that has emerged in this thread (creativity), please do so.
And let's not continue this conflict of different opinions.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
tomk
King of OTD
Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: creativity [Re: skystone]
#3383091 - 11/19/04 09:07 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I may have something to add.
When they study people and psychedelics, they find one thing that psychedelics increase is 'loose associations'. Loose associations are between two concepts that are loosely related or related as opposites. For example, if your recognition of the word "sweet" is faster after being exposed to the word "lemon" you've demonstrated loose association between them. People on psychedelics show more loose association then people not on them. Loose association is correlated with creativity, the higher a person scores on tests of creativity, the more likely they are to loosely associate.
Ergo, psychedelics increase creativity, in very specific, demonstrable, and testable ways.
I think of psychedelics one path to enlightenment. Once I was tripping and a friend says "I'm there, this is the high I've been looking for." I believe that humans have an innate drive (like sex drive) for some sort of spiritual fulfilment, and that people who use a lot of drugs are using them because drugs help fulfil this drive. It seems to me that the reason drugs help fulfil them is because they work. Whenever I eat mushrooms I feel so at peace with everything. Part of me thinks "I should learn to replicate this without drugs" and another part of me thinks "Drugs are the natural way to achieve this brain-state, dispite what society says, and if I want to continue to have these brain states properly, I must continue to use them." I have no problem with the use of psychedelics for religious purposes, and maybe even think that psychedelics are a purer way then meditation to reach those same sorts of states. *gasp* Read Stanislov Graf.
--------------------
"I am eternally free"
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
#3384308 - 11/19/04 02:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What on earth gives you the right to set the rules for philosophical discussion
The usage of an ad hominem argument has long been disallowed in a logical debate.
Seriously, you never heard of increased creativity and artistic expression as a result of using psychedelics?
Ah, heresay evidence. I have heard of many myths. Real-world testing has shown otherwise.
The very fact that you are labelling other people as "newbies"...
Someone new to the forum is called a _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank).
Seems only a few here see the total irony of the juxtaposition of self-righteous anger and claims of enlightenment.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3384541 - 11/19/04 03:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I never claimed my self to be enlightened.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,887
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 29 days, 6 hours
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3384599 - 11/19/04 04:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
skystone said:
I never claimed my self to be enlightened.
is that enlightenment?
--------------------
--------------------
Disclaimer!?
|
skystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Gomp]
#3384645 - 11/19/04 04:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
No, it's nothing. It's just awareness of the avarage limited state of my consciousness.
--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"
|
Tag_Number
Experience
Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 154
Loc: Soma dreaming itself
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3384712 - 11/19/04 04:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Hallucinogens obviously alter the creative process. As you are hallucinating (seeing something that isnt there) (in a computer analogy putting x as the variable). You altering the visual cortex, thus changing the brains creativity. Without this hallucinogen you would not see this hallucination. Hallucinations are posed through creation. Done and said.
Edited by Tag_Number (11/19/04 04:32 PM)
|
Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,887
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 29 days, 6 hours
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Tag_Number]
#3384784 - 11/19/04 04:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
im gona sniff this word to..
en-light-en-ment
en-1 or em- or in-
pref.
To put into or onto: encapsulate.
To go into or onto: enplane.
-light-
n.
A source of light, especially a lamp, a lantern, or an electric lighting fixture: Turn out the lights when you leave.
en-1 or em- or in-
pref.
To put into or onto: encapsulate.
To go into or onto: enplane.
-ment
suff.
Action; process: appeasement.
Result of an action or process: advancement.
Means, instrument, or agent of an action or process: adornment.
--------------------
--------------------
Disclaimer!?
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
meditation is not like taking drugs [Re: Gomp]
#3384936 - 11/19/04 05:05 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
if you do meditation to get into jhanas the jhanas normally don't happen, the reason to get into meditation is for the centering, or for the spiritual quest, to find out who you are or what is what; when approached in this way, the jhanas are likely to happen but much more than that, the obsessive patterns cease during the effort, and in that way it is very therapeutic, meantime the quest gets underway on a moment to moment basis.
the work laden option of meditation has the side effect is that you become mentally more agile. psychedellic is not equivalent to meditation at all in this way. the taker of psychedellic is not necesarily a person on a sincere quest - it is more entertainment, and meditation is very much less entertainment and more refuge.
however a lot of interest in meditation occurs from people who have taken psychedellic, who have glipsed something that triggers the quest or that clarifies a need for refuge. In meditation one finds refuge in the moment, and one pursues the questing in the moment.
in psychedellic one is tossed into the moment and must surf.
--------------------
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
|
9999
--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (11/21/04 05:37 PM)
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Tag_Number]  1
#3385136 - 11/19/04 05:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Drawings done while on acid generally look like a grade-schoolers scribbles, but are "awesome" in the mind of the tripper. Try it and see.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Tag_Number
Experience
Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 154
Loc: Soma dreaming itself
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385168 - 11/19/04 05:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Then take some psilocybin.
You havent felt anything till the machine gun analogy neurotransmitters.
It fires the same nerve repeatively, instead of normally making a new path.
|
Samus
Stranger
Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 63
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3385176 - 11/19/04 05:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
skystone said:
I would really like to know the opinion of all of you folks here on this issue.
1.-----
Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?
In other words, are they the "real" thing, like having near death experiences or meditation? Are they a connection to ultimate truth
in a direct way, rather than just illusion.
Do you really feel connected, and do you really experience the energy of everything, or Is this just another form of hallucination?
2.-----
And allso If the answer to all that is YES, how do you explain it?
What is your theory? What happens to your brain that gives you these "abilities" so to speak?
3.-----
And how do you incorporate impaired abilities to function in this world, and visual hallucinations into this theory?
Looking forward to hearing your opinions and theories
Most of the mush i've done so far was tkaen while I was on SSRI's, so I can't really comment on it. LSD is another story :P
1. What this spiritual drug does is give you a focussed insight on your personal issues and your ego; this is less of an opinionated thing and more of a medical fact pertaining to the effects of LSD-25.
2. There is no theory behind the effects of substances.. Often when I go for a walk, open my bag of weed and put it in my pipe I ask myself "Why does the Marijuana get me stoned, but all these other plants/trees I see don't?" What these things do to us we will never be able to explain.. LSD-25 is the most potent chemical drug in the world and it is derived from something as simple as rye bread.
3. Visual Hallucinations are another thing that will always boggle my mind. There's nothing explaining them, they simply occur once the user starts experiencing the effects...
I had a very life changing visual experience on 2 tabs of high-grade british columbia acid. Before I go into it I want to make you all aware of a large photograph I have on the wall in my living room. it is a picture of my entire family, 2 parents 4 kids, all in ski-gear out on a day of skiing. Well this evening when I was on the LSD, I was washing my face in my mirror, and in the reflection of my mirror, I saw my entire family standing behind my in tbe bathtub, including myself. It was absolutely bizarre... since the original photograph was taken my family had been split up and alot of shit had happened. It really reminded me of the old days...
For the days th at followed this experience I felt very differant. I felt like something great had just happened in my life, but there was nothing.. Like a great weight was lifted off my shoulders. Within weeks my thoughts became more refreshed and my mind became less shrouded by all the bullshit that doesn't matter in the world. During the night that I was on it I lost all memory of what the real, sober world looked like..
Now it's about a year since I took it and to this day when I smoke ganja I get slight memories of the trip. Everything is simply differant now.
Please share your absolutely killer experiences on drugs as well.
Edited by Samus (11/19/04 06:00 PM)
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385187 - 11/19/04 05:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Swami said:
Drawings done while on acid generally look like a grade-schoolers scribbles, but are "awesome" in the mind of the tripper. Try it and see.
during the effects one's motor co-ordination
and guidance are debilitated, afterwards
it truly is an effort to retain any semblance
of the gift, but if you do retain it,
there is no question of benefit.
also if you are just looking at the phenomenon
from outside, it would help if you
qualified your authority accordingly.
--------------------
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
#3385277 - 11/19/04 06:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
but if you do retain it, there is no question of benefit.
Mighty big IF! Who retains it? If the vast majority cannot retain anything and someone creates art many months years later, the causation or triggering mechanism is impossible to locate.
Do the following post-LSD lyrics show evidence of advanced creativity or a higher spiritual perception?
Doors/Morrison
Wha, yeah!
C'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon
Oh, yeah, ma
Yeah, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girl understand
Hey, all you people that tryin' to sleep
I'm out to make it with my midnight dream, yeah
'Cause I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
All right, yeah
You men eat your dinner
Eat your pork and beans
I eat more chicken
Than any man ever seen, yeah, yeah
I'm a back door man, wha
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
Well, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
Whoa, baby, I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385406 - 11/19/04 06:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The usage of an ad hominem argument has long been disallowed in a logical debate.
Ah, so. There's a saying in my mother tongue: When caught, the thief yells "Catch the thief!".
Quote:
Seriously, you never heard of increased creativity and artistic expression as a result of using psychedelics?
Ah, heresay evidence. I have heard of many myths. Real-world testing has shown otherwise.
Give me some proof of that 'real-world' testing that has shown otherwise (somehow I have a feeling it's going to feature only the examples of testing done by the US government).
Quote:
Someone new to the forum is called a _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank).
Technically, yes.
Beyond that (the mere fact that someone has just joined a certain forum) I don't see what you're trying to imply by this. I might just as well conclude that you are resorting to the ad hominem argument here.
and one more fallacious argument:
Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").
Quote:
Seems only a few here see the total irony of the juxtaposition of self-righteous anger and claims of enlightenment.
I've never claimed I am enlightened, have I?
Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 06:39 PM)
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
#3385453 - 11/19/04 06:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Hypothesis: Drugs lead to enlightenment.
Fact 1: You have taken psychedelics. Others here have taken psychedelics.
Fact 2: This is the largest ever known community of mushroom-takers in the history of the world. You are not enlightened. No one else here claims to be enlightened.
Question answered.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385454 - 11/19/04 06:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Swami said:
Do the following post-LSD lyrics show evidence of advanced creativity or a higher spiritual perception?
Doors/Morrison
Wha, yeah!
C'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon
Oh, yeah, ma
Yeah, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girl understand
Hey, all you people that tryin' to sleep
I'm out to make it with my midnight dream, yeah
'Cause I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
All right, yeah
You men eat your dinner
Eat your pork and beans
I eat more chicken
Than any man ever seen, yeah, yeah
I'm a back door man, wha
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
Well, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
Whoa, baby, I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
The back door is the path to enlightenment.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
oceansize
fuckin' right.
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
#3385469 - 11/19/04 06:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
LOL @ Jim Morrison understanding a path to enlightenment....
Awesome poet, decent vocalist, ok counter-culture philosopher but guru???
--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|
tomk
King of OTD
Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: oceansize]
#3385542 - 11/19/04 07:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"Hypothesis: Drugs lead to enlightenment.
Fact 1: You have taken psychedelics. Others here have taken psychedelics.
Fact 2: This is the largest ever known community of mushroom-takers in the history of the world. You are not enlightened. No one else here claims to be enlightened.
Question answered. "
Invalid - counterexample1:
Hypothesis: First street leads to the church
Fact one: I have taken 1rst Street. My friends have all taken first street.
Fact two: Among the largest community of 1rst street takers, my friends, none have ended up at the church.
Conclusion: First street does not go to the church.
Contradiction: Map:
.......................|
.......................|......Main Street
.......................>>>>>>>>>-----
.....................M.^
.....................a.^
.....................p.^
.....................l.^
.....................e.^
..First Street...st.^......The church
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>------------
>>>>>>> = path of friends, ---- = roads.
Your argument is invalid man. It doesn't work.
Edited by tomk (11/19/04 07:20 PM)
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: tomk]
#3385558 - 11/19/04 07:21 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Asking people how to get somewhere who have never been there and have no map will give you what possible answer(s)?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385587 - 11/19/04 07:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Hypothesis: Drugs lead to enlightenment.
Fact 1: You have taken psychedelics. Others here have taken psychedelics.
Fact 2: This is the largest ever known community of mushroom-takers in the history of the world. You are not enlightened. No one else here claims to be enlightened.
Question answered.
Wrong. And again too many distorsions of other people's statements. You also forgot to answer other questions, and to clarify why you think that just being a long term member makes your statements somehow more valid by default.
The original hypothesis was (I quote):
- "Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?"
Just because I or 99% of the members here are not completely enlightened does not mean that psychedelics are not a path to higher levels of consciousness or enlightment.
There may be some here who are enlightened to some extent, but those usually won't say it openly. Perhaps they don't even know they are enlightened.
Logical fallacies in this latest post of yours include:
- Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).
- Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle
- Counting the hits and forgetting the misses (vice versa in your case)
and most importantly:
- Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.
Sorry man.
Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 07:28 PM)
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
#3385605 - 11/19/04 07:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
and to clarify why you think that just being a long term member makes your statements somehow more valid by default.
This is a standard strawman. Please post the specific line where I said that.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
deff
mysticlove
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,185
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 7 hours, 36 minutes
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385616 - 11/19/04 07:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
nice one tomk
--------------------
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: deff]
#3385661 - 11/19/04 07:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Nice one? If no one is aware of the alternate route, how is it possible to intelligently discuss it?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
tomk
King of OTD
Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385878 - 11/19/04 08:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Swami, your objections have nothing at all to do with my point. My point was your argument isn't valid, so even if your premises are all true (questionable), your conclusion could either be true or false. "If no one is aware of the alternate route, how is it possible to intelligently discuss it?" does not resolve the flaw in your logic. To answer the question, it could be that no one is aware of the alternate route but each of the people knows 1 part of it, and from their mutual knowledge they find out where no one person was aware. But it has nothing at all to do with my objection to the logic of your argument.
--------------------
"I am eternally free"
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3385968 - 11/19/04 08:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
This is a standard strawman. Please post the specific line where I said that.
Granted, you didn't say that anywhere explicitly. However, look into the implicit meaning behind these statements:
Quote:
And what does me being a "newbie" have to do with anything?
1. You come in violating the rules.
Even more sad is yet another newbie (about 186 by my count) who is UNABLE to respond to (or ignore) a post WITHOUT playing the "Let's psychoanalyze the poster" game.
this form of double-speakian conversation is classic newbie phase II
Emphasizing that other posters are newbies, that they are violating the rules (set by you, I presume), addressing the newbies from high above, counting the number of newbies who, as it were, analyzed your ego games...
Just think about that.
As for your logical deduction, there are countless examples to refute it. E.g.
[the time is 1970s, place: some lab where cloning experiments were done)
Hypothesis: It is possible to clone a living organism.
Fact 1: You have tried to clone a living organism. Other scientists have tried to clone a living organism.
Fact 2: This is the largest community of scientists that is attempting to clone a living organism. You haven't succeeded, we haven't succeeded. Cloning of a living organism cannot be done.
Now replace cloning with: finding cure for HIV/AiDS, finding cure for tuberculosis, finding a supernova whose explosion can be observed in our lifetime...
Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 09:06 PM)
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
#3386010 - 11/19/04 09:05 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Granted, you didn't say that anywhere...
Case closed.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
alphaone
Big Detail
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3386025 - 11/19/04 09:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Thank heavens.
|
gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 8 days, 6 hours
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3386112 - 11/19/04 09:23 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care
|
oceansize
fuckin' right.
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: gnrm23]
#3386565 - 11/19/04 11:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The differences between finding a cure for AIDS, finding a supernova etc. Is that the burden of proof is relieved by valid scientific theory.
Don't attack me- I am being objective here:
What makes one think entheogens lead to enlightenment? What theory, what evidence, what people that are testing this with some promise?
This is an open challenge.
--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,004
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: oceansize]
#3386745 - 11/19/04 11:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
you can almost tell in advance if there will be a nugget in a person's posting or if it will be a pedantic re-utterance of the same old story.
is this precognition?
--------------------
|
Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3387458 - 11/20/04 03:39 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Do the following Jim Morrison post-LSD lyrics show evidence of advanced creativity or a higher spiritual perception?
Nope. Probably because Jim Morrison did not write Back Door Man - it's a cover of a 1961 Willie Dixon blues tune.
--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
|
Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Jellric]
#3391261 - 11/21/04 12:41 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Ah!...the sounds of Silence..
--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
|
JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Jellric]
#3391303 - 11/21/04 12:51 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Ahahahaha.
Chalk another one up for the heathens. 
|
bmarley3434
wildwalker
Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 1,162
Loc: nj
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#3392630 - 11/21/04 11:44 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
everything will bring you enlightenment if enlightenment is what you seek.. everything is a tool for expanding your conciousness and your concept of the self.. if that is what youre looking for .. that is why some kids eat mushrooms to look cool.. and others eat them in the dark to see god
--------------------
www.returntonature.us - wild foods blog
  
OM
|
JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: bmarley3434]
#3392633 - 11/21/04 11:45 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bmarley3434 said:
everything will bring you enlightenment if enlightenment is what you seek.. everything is a tool for expanding your conciousness and your concept of the self.. if that is what youre looking for .. that is why some kids eat mushrooms to look cool.. and others eat them in the dark to see god
|
JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: bmarley3434]
#3392909 - 11/21/04 02:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bmarley3434 said:
everything will bring you enlightenment if enlightenment is what you seek.. everything is a tool for expanding your conciousness and your concept of the self.. if that is what youre looking for .. that is why some kids eat mushrooms to look cool.. and others eat them in the dark to see god
i like the way you think.
--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------
"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Jellric]
#3392929 - 11/21/04 02:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Nope. Probably because Jim Morrison did not write Back Door Man - it's a cover of a 1961 Willie Dixon blues tune.
I see. So it is lyrically "creative" to do a cover tune?
What happened to the mini-story line?
When everybody's tryin' to sleep
I'm somewhere making my midnight creep
Yes in the morning, when the rooster crow
Something tell me, I got to go
[chorus]
They take me to the doctor, shot full o' holes
Nurse cried, "please save his soul"
Accused him of murder, first degree
Judge's wife cried, "let the man go free"
[chorus]
"Stand out there", cop's wife cried
"Don't take him down, rather be dead
Six feet in the ground"
... and to choose one so obviously stuck in the lower chakras is evidence of rising to a higher plane?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Tag_Number
Experience
Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 154
Loc: Soma dreaming itself
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3392945 - 11/21/04 02:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Swami is a master of reverse psychology. By telling people psychedelics do not make them more creative, he is infinitely expanding the possiblility of creativity in the psychedelic experience by playing reverse psychological game.
He mind as well say psychedlics make you uncreative.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Tag_Number]
#3393014 - 11/21/04 02:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Here is an impression of a snowflake I did while under LSD. Hardly can call it creative.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Tag_Number
Experience
Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 154
Loc: Soma dreaming itself
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3393089 - 11/21/04 03:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What do you define creative and noncreative?
Just because you do not think its good does not mean its not creative.
Basic input is creativity.
When I blink, thats the creativity of myself blinking.
|
JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3393102 - 11/21/04 03:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Swami said:
... and to choose one so obviously stuck in the lower chakras is evidence of rising to a higher plane?
I'm sorry, did you say "so obviously"? Are we making presumptions about the meaning of other peoples' art, Swami? Very unlike you...
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#3393111 - 11/21/04 03:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Are we making presumptions about the meaning of other peoples' art, Swami?
Ask shroomism or Ped where a sexual fixation fits in the order of chakras.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3393260 - 11/21/04 04:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That's weak, man. You still haven't proved those represent Morrison's thoughts.
It's a cover tune. Hellloooo!!
--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#3393273 - 11/21/04 04:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm fairly certain that the idea is to have all the chakras in balance. That includes the lower ones as well as the higher ones.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
TYL3R
Duke
Registered: 11/19/04
Posts: 17,485
Loc: Ungrounded
|
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
#3393913 - 11/21/04 07:38 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
skystone said:
Swami
I don't question your logic , you seem to operate on
healthy reasoning in debates, but I have noticed since I have came here that you put a certain amount of some internal subtle and masked feelings in those discussions. Of course you will probably denie that, but it seems to me that most things you say have a negative note in them. As if you are fighting a war here.
And it all comes in a form of skepticism towards everything.
It's as every discussion with you does not begin with a neutral ground (and then starts leaning towards something), but starts with a negation and then is supose to lean towards afirmation but of course it doesn't.
Let me just say that being naive (what I suspect you hate most) is the same as being too sceptical, just reversed.
Some people blindly belive that something exists, and some blindly belive that it does not. And both of these blindly believe.
I also agree that you are being a bit hostile...chill out....
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
