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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3382052 - 11/19/04 12:14 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Wrong again, Swamo! (There's a new nick for ya! Sorry, but I have copyrighted it and will sell it to you for a nomimal fee :smile:

*Gets all serious* Note: I sincerely apologize for addressing you personally, Swami. I know we aren't allowed to do that.  :wtf:

Even some old-timers fail to follow the rules of philosophical debate.

The "rules" of this debate were set by skystone; We were asked to give our opinions and I have done my best at doing so. (I do note that, rather than laying out your own opinion, you have focused on attacking others opinions.) Jellric's opinion is based upon his personal experience and the majority of trip reports he has read or heard.

Do you disagree with what I have said?

If so, why?


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleAntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
    #3382056 - 11/19/04 12:15 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

You would have a point if you assume I haven't read your posts.

Look, I know these systems we're living in are terrible things. Believe me, I would want a world without being forced into them.

But I also see where the average Libertarian is coming from. Greed and self interest. And from reading your posts, you seem like the average Libertarian to me. This wouldn't be a problem for me, I know how to find my way if I have to. But not all our brothers and sisters are equally strong. And there are too many of them and too many of you.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
    #3382069 - 11/19/04 12:19 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

More self-deceptions. Do you want to actually make an effort to understand where others are coming from, or would you rather make biased assumptions based on what you would like to believe?

PS: Your mind-reading abilities suck.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
    #3382081 - 11/19/04 12:22 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Again; I have read your posts. I don't need mind-reading abilities. I've also read enough by other Libertarians to know where the average comes from.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
    #3382092 - 11/19/04 12:24 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Well you certain aren't getting all this from my posts. I never claimed any of these motivations which you are projecting onto me.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
    #3382109 - 11/19/04 12:29 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Of course you're not claiming that. Nobody would claim that about themselves, now would they? But it's not hard to defer what you've got in mind from your stated opinions.

I might be wrong about you, but your politics seem very clear to me.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
    #3382132 - 11/19/04 12:32 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

They seem clear to you because you have already decided what you want to believe about me, and will not let a silly thing like facts stand in your way. I'm done with this discussion. If you ever want to actually know what I believe and why I believe it, I'll be happy to discuss it with you. But you've obviously already made up your mind about me, so any attempt to convince you otherwise will be futile. Ironic that you would call me the close-minded one.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
    #3382170 - 11/19/04 12:41 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Hey, I said I might be wrong about you. I mean that. :smile:

But I have discussed several related issues with you (some under my old username), and that is simply the impression I've gotten. I don't excpect anybody to accept that characterization of themselves, but I call them as I see them.

This is probably the wrong place to discuss it further though.


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Edited by AntiMeme (11/19/04 12:42 AM)


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Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: AntiMeme]
    #3382281 - 11/19/04 01:18 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

both of you shut the fuck up.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: oceansize]
    #3382408 - 11/19/04 02:01 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

I can feel the enlightenment.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinealphaone
Big Detail
Male
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3382918 - 11/19/04 05:39 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:


Even more sad is yet another newbie (about 186 by my count) who is UNABLE to respond to (or ignore) a post WITHOUT playing the "Let's psychoanalyze the poster" game.





I did respond to your post. I said that psychedelics greatly enhanced my visualisation skills and creativity. This in turn potentially reflects on my ability to express artistically. Why "potentially"? See below.

I also explained that, since I have never been trained in the fields of visual design and music, my newly found visualisation skills and ability to "compose" music in my head most probably will not be put to use, i.e. will not be materialized because I lack the practical skills to materialize them. There is a difference between having a picture in your mind and putting that picture on paper. The difference is in one's training in that field which cannot be acquired overnight but is the result of many years of training. For instance, I would have to learn how to play synthesizers, or how to use complicated animation software. I'm not saying it cannot be done, just merely that my life thus far went into another direction and it would take me a lot of effort to switch profession. I assume you can agree with me on that.

What is left unanswered, oh Swami the Great?

Seriously, you never heard of increased creativity and artistic expression as a result of using psychedelics? How do you explain the fact that most musicians have taken psychedelics at least some time in their life (some are doing it on regular basis), and are constantly claiming that psychedelics do have salutary influence on their imagination?


As for psychoanalysis of your distinguished ego - don't put into my mouth something I did not say. It doesn't take knowledge of psychology to perceive what kind of character you are projecting here. The very fact that you are labelling other people as "newbies" that "violated the rules" (what rules?) etc. makes you open to criticism, not psychoanalysis.

What on earth gives you the right to set the rules for philosophical discussion and call other people newbies? Because you have made several thousand posts so far and the poster of the original message hasn't? Because you consider yourself an expert on philosophical way of thinking and others are 'newbies' by default? That's a very poor argument in debates.


Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 07:46 AM)


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Offlinealphaone
Big Detail
Male
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Jellric]
    #3382935 - 11/19/04 06:01 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:


The "rules" of this debate were set by skystone; We were asked to give our opinions and I have done my best at doing so. (I do note that, rather than laying out your own opinion, you have focused on attacking others opinions.) Jellric's opinion is based upon his personal experience and the majority of trip reports he has read or heard.





Quite correct. Skystone wanted to know what other people think about the questions he posted, not endless debate between posters about whose opinion is valid and whose isn't.

If Swami had any integrity and respect for other people, he would have expressed his opinion and left others to express theirs. But no, he has to use the occasion to bash other people's opinions and ideas because it's such a great opportunity to gratify his ego. Sigh.

.to Skystone

If you haven't yet read "The Doors of Perception" by Aldous Huxley, I strongly advise you to do so. There he covers all of your questions and gives his ideas. Here's the link:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/doors.htm


Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 06:10 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,385
creativity [Re: skystone]
    #3382976 - 11/19/04 07:05 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

there is no question that psychedellics increase my creativity.
they enhance an essential creative aspect which is the state of mind which fosters stacked contexts, overlayed images, blended conforms, less processed sensations, etc.

the problem is always retention and integration with normal mind states.

some psychedellic materials make you exhausted. others are just too hard to get.

I find salvia's short duration and my habit of keeping a pad and pen close at hand very helpful, for catching combinations that my mundane personality habits would overlook or process out of existence.

These unusual combinations I can use in my work (fine art and computer work as well).

A way of looking at things also emerges from mindful psychedellic use which permits less processed input or natural fragments, rather than always full on consensual reality. This is very useful for appreciating the work of others and in keeping the mind open.

the number one aspect of being able to create art is to be able to appreciate the art of others and nature itself. to be able to fillup with the beauty of what is mostly just passed over and to be able to express it.

expression while on psychedellics, however is lacking, and please do not drive.


Edited by redgreenvines (11/19/04 07:06 AM)


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Offlineskystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: creativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3383019 - 11/19/04 08:03 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Finaly we are back on the topic.

If anyone else wishes to express themself about the original questions, or the new question that has emerged in this thread (creativity), please do so.

And let's not continue this conflict of different opinions.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: creativity [Re: skystone]
    #3383091 - 11/19/04 09:07 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

I may have something to add.

When they study people and psychedelics, they find one thing that psychedelics increase is 'loose associations'. Loose associations are between two concepts that are loosely related or related as opposites. For example, if your recognition of the word "sweet" is faster after being exposed to the word "lemon" you've demonstrated loose association between them. People on psychedelics show more loose association then people not on them. Loose association is correlated with creativity, the higher a person scores on tests of creativity, the more likely they are to loosely associate.

Ergo, psychedelics increase creativity, in very specific, demonstrable, and testable ways.

I think of psychedelics one path to enlightenment. Once I was tripping and a friend says "I'm there, this is the high I've been looking for." I believe that humans have an innate drive (like sex drive) for some sort of spiritual fulfilment, and that people who use a lot of drugs are using them because drugs help fulfil this drive. It seems to me that the reason drugs help fulfil them is because they work. Whenever I eat mushrooms I feel so at peace with everything. Part of me thinks "I should learn to replicate this without drugs" and another part of me thinks "Drugs are the natural way to achieve this brain-state, dispite what society says, and if I want to continue to have these brain states properly, I must continue to use them." I have no problem with the use of psychedelics for religious purposes, and maybe even think that psychedelics are a purer way then meditation to reach those same sorts of states. *gasp* Read Stanislov Graf.


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"I am eternally free"


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
    #3384308 - 11/19/04 02:45 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

What on earth gives you the right to set the rules for philosophical discussion
The usage of an ad hominem argument has long been disallowed in a logical debate.

Seriously, you never heard of increased creativity and artistic expression as a result of using psychedelics?
Ah, heresay evidence. I have heard of many myths. Real-world testing has shown otherwise.

The very fact that you are labelling other people as "newbies"...
Someone new to the forum is called a _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank).

Seems only a few here see the total irony of the juxtaposition of self-righteous anger and claims of enlightenment.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineskystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3384541 - 11/19/04 03:49 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

I never claimed my self to be enlightened.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,887
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3384599 - 11/19/04 04:03 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
I never claimed my self to be enlightened.




is that enlightenment?  :grin:


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Disclaimer!?


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Offlineskystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Gomp]
    #3384645 - 11/19/04 04:12 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

No, it's nothing. It's just awareness of the avarage limited state of my consciousness.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineTag_Number
Experience
Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 154
Loc: Soma dreaming itself
Last seen: 17 years, 5 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3384712 - 11/19/04 04:24 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Hallucinogens obviously alter the creative process. As you are hallucinating (seeing something that isnt there) (in a computer analogy putting x as the variable). You altering the visual cortex, thus changing the brains creativity. Without this hallucinogen you would not see this hallucination. Hallucinations are posed through creation. Done and said.


Edited by Tag_Number (11/19/04 04:32 PM)


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