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OfflinePed
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1643939 - 06/19/03 08:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that was my thought too Rhizoid.  I don't know who Meher Baba is, but he seems a little too strongly opinionated on the subject. Regardless, he makes some good points.

The Dalai Lama has some things to say about this as well.  He doesn't speak of drugs directly, but his words canopy the subject very nicely.  This is excerpted from his book "Transforming the Mind."  (chp.2, "Transforming through Altruism", p.52)


Quote:

"The transformation of mind and heart does not happen overnight but through a gradual process.  Although it is true that in some cases instantaneous spiritual experiences may be possible, they are rather unreliable and somewhat shortlived.  The problem is that when sudden experiences occur like bolts of lightning, the individual may feel profoundly moved and inspired, but if the experiences are not grounded in discipline and sustained effort they are very unpredictable, and their transformative impact will be rather limited.  By contrast, a genuine transformation that results from sustained concerted effort is long-lasting because it has a firm foundation.  This is why long-term spiritual transformation can really only come about through a gradual process of training and discipline."





Vulture, you may be interested in a book titled  The Tao of Physics, by Fritjof Capra.   


   


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Offlinelucid
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Ped]
    #1644319 - 06/19/03 12:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Here's an interesting twist to stir up this thread.
I recently read that historians say Buddha died due to
poisioning by either meat or a mushroom...
I thought Buddha was a vegetarian, but no matter, my point
is that perhaps Buddha "attained elightenment" while
munching on some Portabellas under the Bodi tree...
perhaps he was a regular shroom consumer and died
after eating a poisionous shroom that truely lead
to a state of no-self... :grin:
my deepest appologies to any Buddhists on the forum, I
don't mean any disrespect by these comments, I think
Buddha was the most evolved human that ever blessed
the planet, but I just wanted to point out that it might
have had something to do with shrooms, and add some levity. 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinec_mathimatics
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: lucid]
    #1644492 - 06/19/03 01:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"
Self-enlightenment can only be acheived my way. Not your way, or their way, my way. And my way is slow. Because it was slow for me, it will be slow for you.
"

This is nonsense! There are as many ways to enlightenment as there are people that have _EVER_ existed, and more! Someone can find true enlightenment by falling out of a plane, some while meditating in a cave 10 thousand+ feet up a mountain. Some find it wilst eating mushrooms, or peyote, or even marijuana!

Besides, telling one that they can or cannot do something, try something, use something, or be something (etc etc) is taking away precious free-will, one of the foundations of individuality and self-expansion/knowledge/understanding.

---
Everything that I say is both true and false simultaneously. I accept that.


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OfflinePed
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Buddha [Re: lucid]
    #1644661 - 06/19/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Shakayamuni Buddha roamed India spreading teachings for almost 50 years after his awakening.  He died at age 81.

Buddhist in certain stages of practice prefer a vegetarian diet, but they will eat whatever is put infront of them.

:smile: 


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Buddha [Re: Ped]
    #1644683 - 06/19/03 02:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>Shakayamuni Buddha roamed India spreading teachings for almost 50
>years after his awakening. He died at age 81.
yup, exactly, but historians claim he died (age 81 as u say)
by eating a poisionous shroom - and I'm making a hypothetical
leap by suggesting that perhaps this idicates that
he regularaly consumed shrooms and his "enlightenment"
was due to shroom ingestion.
just a conjecture...



--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineWaveRider
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1644689 - 06/19/03 02:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomnoob said:
Then your pretty fucking far from being enlightened. If hear anyone else say that after their last trip they sensed that they where on the verge of breaking through I'm gonna puke.

Listen, you where high, stoned, fucked up and the only thing you where on the verge of reaching was your toilet.





No offense is meant by this but who do you think you are to tell others that what they feel is real is not? You are just a man, just like everyone else, what makes you think that you know more then others? I can not say that the path to true enlightment can be brought through psychedelic experiences alone, but I will not say that it is not posiible. I know that I know very little about this life and I am in the process of learning my own path. I can not say that my way is RIGHT, all I can say is that it is right for me. You might want to try to be more tolerant of other's beliefs as one can learn from others as well. There is no 'reality' of things because it is all on a personal understanding of others and the world around them.


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."


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OfflinePed
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Re: Buddha [Re: lucid]
    #1644690 - 06/19/03 02:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Oh I see what you mean. I though you meant he ate some mushrooms under the Bodhi tree, and died there after eating a look-alike or something.

No worries.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1644719 - 06/19/03 02:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think I will find enlightenment in a bowl of Breyer's Dutch Chocolate ice cream or maybe in the cheerleader down the street...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Buddha [Re: Ped]
    #1644735 - 06/19/03 02:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I've often also heard of Sufi stories where
candy/food/liquid etc was ingested prior to
a mystical tranformation. The item is usually
only refered to in passing in the stories,
without any consideration that the item might
have had psychadellic properties or might have
instigated the "awakening". I'm not suggesting
that these were indeed psychadelics, but I'm
open to the possibility and curious...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Buddha [Re: lucid]
    #1644747 - 06/19/03 02:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>I think I will find enlightenment in a bowl of Breyer's Dutch
>Chocolate ice cream or maybe in the cheerleader down the street...
Sigh, as much as it pains (agonizingly so) me Swami, I have to agree.
After years of meditation and a serious bout with depression and
anxiety I wonder more and more if Freud was right...the best we
can hope for is "common unhappiness", fleeting glimpses of pleasure
in our basic instincts. And I think a true state of no-mind would
be brain death, vegetable mode...
argg... I am Jack's Cynical Frustration...


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Buddha [Re: lucid]
    #1644755 - 06/19/03 02:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Clarification please. It pains you because you agree with me or because you found meditation to be empty?  :smirk: 


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Buddha [Re: Ped]
    #1644776 - 06/19/03 02:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Osho on enlightenment and drug use:

Quote:

. . . And then, suddenly, everything is new, because mind was making everything old through its interpretation. Suddenly you are a child again. Your eyes are fresh and young, you look at things without knowledge, without learning. Suddenly the trees have a freshness, the greenery has changed -- it is not dull, it is alive. Suddenly the sound of a bird is absolutely different.

This is what is happening to many people through drugs. Aldous Huxley became intensely fascinated by drugs because of this. All over the world the new generation is so attracted by drugs. The reason is this: because the drug for a moment, or for a few moments, chemically puts the mind aside. You look at the world, now the colours all around are simply miraculous. You had never seen such a thing! An ordinary flower becomes the whole existence, carries the whole glory of the Divine. An ordinary leaf becomes so deep, as if the whole Truth is revealed through it. Everything and anything immediately changes. The drug cannot change the world; the drug is only chemically putting your mind aside.

But you can become addicted to it -- then the mind has absorbed the drug too. Only once, in the beginning, for the first time, or twice, or three times, you can deceive the mind chemically. By and by, the mind becomes attuned to the drug. Then it demands, and now the demand is coming from the mind. Now, by and by, even chemically, you will not be able to push the mind aside. It will be there. You will be addicted. Trees will become old again, colours will not be so radiant, things will again become dull. The drug has killed you; it couldn't kill the mind.

The drug can only give you a shock-treatment. It is a shock to the whole body chemistry. In that shock, the old adjustement is broken. Gaps are there; through the gaps you can look, but this cannot be made a practice. You cannot practice a drug. Sooner or later, it becomes part of the mind; the mind takes over. Only meditation can kill the mind -- nothing else. Meditation is mind suicide, mind committing suicide.

Without any chemicals, without any physical means, if you can put the mind aside, then you become the master. And when you are the master, everything is new. It has always been so. From the very beginning to the very end, everything is new, young, fresh. Death has never occured in this world. It is life eternal.




I don't know how much of this I agree with personally, and it sounds to me like the guy does not have a lot of personal experience with psychedelics, but it reminds me a lot of what Alan Watts said about LSD: "once you have gotten the message, hang up the phone."

Does anyone with long term psychedelic experience have anything to say about this? Have you found that the experience has changed after your first handful of trips? I have met several people who say they have not experienced the clarity of mind, the joyous wonderment at the beautiful craziness of all existence, that I experienced when I have eaten mushrooms. It's been a couple of years since my last psilocybin experience, but I remember feeling as though I had tapped into some kind of cosmic fountain of wisdom and genius, like I had the answers for all the questions that mattered. People would ask me stuff, and I would explain. I was sharing dharma that I didn't even realize I had access to. Others have tried to tell me that I am deluded, that I was "just high", but I know what I experienced. I have come to the conclusion that it's mostly about what you are bringing into the experience with you, but maybe someone else has more to say about this as well...?


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Buddha [Re: lucid]
    #1644794 - 06/19/03 02:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Lucid, that "serious bout with anxiety" is all part of the process. We all have to pass through this phase as some point in our spiritual growth... St John of the Cross, a Christian mystic, called it the "dark night of the soul." Have faith bro, keep plodding along... If you are still feeling anxious and empty, I highly recommend the writings of Ken Wilber. Very scientific-minded but they really helped me a great deal in moving beyond the bottomless pit of existential anxiety and postmodern confusion...


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Buddha [Re: Swami]
    #1644797 - 06/19/03 02:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>Clarification please. It pains you because you agree with me or
>because you found meditation to be empty?
both... meditation was "empty" (LOL) and the craving
for the Breyer's never went away (Note: not "desire"
for Breyer's but craving, which equtes to suffering
when unfulfilled). Strange, there was a time when
the craving seemed to have dissappeared and I had
intensely blissful moments in meditation, but now it's
all gone...the glimmer of light within has extinguished
(<insert woe unto me dramatization here :grin:>) .
I still have some very wonderful trancendental moments
while meditating, but it's infrequent and more importantly
the underlying sense of peace is gone, replaced by an
underlying sense of confusion, torment, doom and
constant dissatisfaction. Just the truth here. 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Buddha [Re: sunyata]
    #1644814 - 06/19/03 02:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

but it reminds me a lot of what Alan Watts said about LSD: "once you have gotten the message, hang up the phone."

(Heh, heh. The phone rang just as I was typing this and there was no message!)

What if the phone rings again? (i.e. LSD presents itself at another time and place?) I seriously doubt Watts only tripped once!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Buddha [Re: Swami]
    #1644830 - 06/19/03 02:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
(Heh, heh. The phone rang just as I was typing this and there was no message!)




Woah! It's a sign man! j/k

Quote:

What if the phone rings again? (i.e. LSD presents itself at another time and place?) I seriously doubt Watts only tripped once!




Yep, it may ring again. I don't know. I myself am struggling a bit with the decision of whether or not I should try shrooms again. Like I said, it's been a couple of years. I'm sure there's no harm in it; I think Watts' point was that there are healthier ways to reach these states of consciousness. But I also think it depends entirely on the individual, and I wouldn't condemn anyone who decides to "practice" a drug. I am curious, actually, about what those with long term psychedelic experience have to say about this...



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Offlinec_mathimatics
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Re: Buddha [Re: sunyata]
    #1644851 - 06/19/03 02:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Dark nights of the soul"... yeah, been there...

Of course marijuana made me too mental, so I gave up all forms of drugs for a while and even drank a _little_ which is totaly against my character.

I was affraid to take mushrooms at first because that is what opened me up to all of the subtle programming I had to deal with. About four months after I decided that taking mushrooms again was within me.

It was the best thing I could have ever done.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Buddha [Re: sunyata]
    #1644886 - 06/19/03 03:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

During my last psychedelic experience, having eaten about 8 grams between myself and my girlfriend whom I care for very deeply, her and I were discussing our feelings for eachother, the nature of love in general. After some time the discussion became very powerful, until we found ourselves in eachother's embrace, emotionally very shaken. It was during this time that I felt and "saw" (for lack of a better word) something I'd never experienced before, something I could only describe as a realization.

It would be nonsense to attempt to articulate it expecting any clarity of the idea to come through the words. Though, undeniably, it was something perceived to be greater than the sum of the involved parts, those being my own psychological construct, that of my girlfriend, our relationship, and the mushrooms we had eaten. It was this overpowering sense of infinite love, compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, amusement.

It felt almost like a 16th century mandolin strumming sprite strolling through the meadow of the universe, stopping to observe for a moment, noting everything understood on this earth in absolute hilarity. Irradiating this infectious wisdom and love, it felt like something was scrutinizing the farthest depths of my heart as simply as we would examine a bus schedule. A terrifyingly peaceful vibration was moving through my being, a song without end, moving on, moving on. It was just overwhelmingly powerful. "God", in all ways the word should be understood.

Now, though, just a vauge memory.

Like yourself, many have told me I was "just high", and I'm sure I haven't heard the last of that. Regardless, the experience has energized my pursuit of this as a lasting state of mind. When we feel peace, we create peace, and others are drawn to that peace and are encouraged to create it for themselves. By striving toward peace, we help create peace for the whole world.

If that's not a worthy goal, I don't know what is.


--------------------


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OfflinePed
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Re: Buddha [Re: Ped]
    #1644894 - 06/19/03 03:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So long as we're on the telephone metaphor, why not pick up the phone and start dialing? If I need to get my plumbing fixed, do I wait for the plumber to call?


--------------------


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Buddha [Re: Ped]
    #1644934 - 06/19/03 03:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Hehehe...
Actually I don't like the Watts metaphor.

I think a better one is: "if you don't get through, try another channel".
And if you have a channel that works for you, by all means use it.


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