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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1635136 - 06/15/03 03:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

But what if a person finds enlightenment, then loses it, and then finds it again? If he foresees this possibility during the first period of enlightenment then your statement is clearly wrong.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1635413 - 06/15/03 06:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Ah.... that begs the question:

Once enlightened (whatever the fuck that means), can one "lose it"?


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1635470 - 06/15/03 06:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i see it as more of an experence...just like everything in life.


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1635477 - 06/15/03 06:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think there is a distinction to be made between temorary "states" of consciousness and (more or less) permanent "stages". Abraham Maslow spoke of "peak experiences" which are like a glimpse at the potentials that lie in store for those that are willing to do the work to raise their consciousness so that this experience becomes stabilized as the level of consciousness that one regularly experiences life from.

I think mushrooms can never offer anything more than the former -- a glimpse at the potentials of the mind, whereas meditative work is supposedly the path to achieving these states permanently, whereupon they cannot be lost, anymore than a child who develops the ability to perform formal operational mental tasks can lose that ability (until old age brain degeneration takes place, I guess)...


Edited by sunyata (06/15/03 06:32 PM)


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: sunyata]
    #1636713 - 06/16/03 06:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, the enlightened state that I experienced was an all-or-nothing thing. I was there one moment, and in the next moment I wasn't (but I was of course still impacted by the immediate memory of it). On the other hand, enlightenment as a stage in a person's spiritual growth does not seem to be an all-or-nothing thing unless you only count perfection, which I think is kind of silly.

Buddhists enumerate various stages of enlightenment, and stages within stages depending on how skillful you are at overcoming the obstacles. Those obstacles don't go away completely until you're dead. I presume that even a buddha feels hunger and thirst etc as long as he is alive in a human body and takes care of its needs.


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OfflinePed
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1637003 - 06/16/03 10:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>> "Listen, you where high, stoned, fucked up and the only thing you where on the verge of reaching was your toilet.

As a self-proclaimed "thrill-seeker", it's no mystery that the concept of understanding through opening is so foreign to you. 

By no means would I suggest that psychedelics as a spiritual path are a means to any end outside of the rainforest,  nor would I suggest that we can achieve a lasting state of awareness after the drug has left our systems.  Psychedelic drugs when applied to the objective of awakening could be thought of as a shrill, persistent alarm clock.  Even once awake, we are in lassitude.  Invariably, we find the snooze button and drift back to our previous slumber.

And so psychedelic drugs are no solution to our spiritual langour.  It is, I think, unquestionable that the right dose in the right setting can jostle our eyes open to the astonishing, unrelenting flow of things.  A stream, red and rich with the purest, most unconditional love imaginable.  Suddenly it feels as though we're ripples in a pond, formless and only with awareness.  Part of That from which nothing can be removed, as our absence would mean It's incompleteness.  Items as events rather than objects; all things in the universe impermanent and in a constant state of flux. No past, present, or future, only the continually evolving "now".. [Drifts off, ponders with blank stare]

That's how I would describe my last trip. :smile:  I had a great time.  I've since forgotten the meaning behind all those things.  Once again, those words are just words.  Regardless, prior to that night I was feeling very discouraged.  I'd lost sight of everything.  Now, there is much more motivation to pursue what I have been pursuing with my spiritual study since that experience.

Is it so unreasonable to use psychedelic drugs in this manner?     


--------------------


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Ped]
    #1637783 - 06/16/03 05:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Enlightenment has to do with freeing your mind of delusion. It's not something you "find" and then "lose" again. I'm definitely not enlightened but I can say that meditation has helped me gain better control over my perceptions as well as realize emptiness.

Drugs are an induced experience. Psychedelics affect your brain. They don't make you suddenly enlightened. They can be a great aid in learning how to enter into an egoless samadhi state of mind, but it doesn't mean that while you're peaking in level 5 that you're enlightened.

Psychedelics are great tools; a way of understanding our perceptions and our false sense of self. You can indeed develop great insights while tripping because a lot of psychedelics force you into a single-point state of mind. But they are just chemicals. Enlightenment, according to all tantric and meditative traditions, is a state of being we all can achieve. If you've ever met a guru or lama who is highly realized you feel their love and bliss from just how they compose themselves.

All the negativity and snappy comments in this thread by either side of the argument tends to bring to light that you're missing the point. The only person that can bring you to enlightenment is yourself. Even the Buddha said in many of the sutras that he cannot enlighten anyone. He can only show you the way; the rest is up to you to make the effort to calm and transform your own mind.

Love & Light,

Boppity


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1637825 - 06/16/03 05:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Does enlightenment have to be a permanent state? Do you sit in traffic for four hours in enlightenment?

Or is it temporary?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinelateralus
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1638535 - 06/16/03 11:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The Psilocybin Experience stands alone. It cannot be invalidated or explained away because its a 'drug'.

I personally dont see why anyone would want to be in a psychadelic hallucinating state permanently by some meditative technique taught by some 'guru'.

If thats not the goal then why do people always confuse the two? These 'guru chasers' always seem to think the states are similar. If they are similar, why waste your time? Why swim across an ocean when you can take a boat?


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: lateralus]
    #1638643 - 06/17/03 12:18 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because they're totally different states of mind. Pure meditative states of samadhi are nothing like tripping. There's nothing hallucinogenic about meditation; it's quite the opposite experience.

Love & Light,

Boppity


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1638664 - 06/17/03 12:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I've learned from every drug experience I've had. There is enlightenment in everything you live, whether it be mammoth or totally overlooked until later. Yes, I found the toilet, and I learned that I like puking. Everything is not always about suddenly discovering the secrets of existence and our purpose as conscious beings. It's also just a whole bunch of little steps that eventually lead us somewhere.

OH WOW! GRAV THAT IS THE COOLEST AVATAR I EVER SEEN SON!!!!!!!! I love earthbound and purple landscape goodness!


--------------------
Namaste


Edited by RedNukleus (06/17/03 12:32 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Boppity604]
    #1638890 - 06/17/03 04:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I've never found anything hallucinogenic about mushrooms either. As Huxley said "hallucinogen" is a very poor term for these drugs. A hallucination is something you cannot distuingish from reality - I've never experienced aything like that on mushrooms.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1638919 - 06/17/03 05:09 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"It's not the drug. It's not the drug. It's not the drug."

Of course its not just you! Duh!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1638920 - 06/17/03 05:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Then your pretty fucking far from being enlightened. If hear anyone else say that after their last trip they sensed that they where on the verge of breaking through I'm gonna puke.





How anyone with this much anger can judge how far somebody is or isnt from enlightenment is beyond me!

Personally Im not sure if Id know enlightenment if it came up and bit me on the pineal gland. Enlightenment is just sooo third millenium dahlings.

PEACE


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1639762 - 06/17/03 03:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123: Does enlightenment have to be a permanent state? Do you sit in traffic for four hours in enlightenment?
Or is it temporary?


Good question. The common definition indicates one way or the other.
Maybe it should.

I've never found anything hallucinogenic about mushrooms either. As Huxley said "hallucinogen" is a very poor term for these drugs. A hallucination is something you cannot distuingish from reality - I've never experienced anything like that on mushrooms.

Ditto.
It's no surprise to me that Huxley also thought "hallucinogen" is a misnomer (entheogen or psychedelic is better, IMO). Is that quote from Huxley's writings?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1639896 - 06/17/03 04:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's mentioned in "Moksha" - Huxley's writings on psychedelics.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePed
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Boppity604]
    #1639927 - 06/17/03 04:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I meant not to imply that I had been enlightened by mushrooms, nor that I was any better an example of realization than the next person. :smile: 


--------------------


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OfflineVulture
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Ped]
    #1642473 - 06/18/03 04:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I love phsycadelics just as much as anyone here. I feel the elightenment thing too. I do think there is something about them....just "something".....they are different than anything else....there has to be a reason for them.

Im just now beggining to read some stuff about metaphysics and getting into astral projetion deeper and it has become a nessesity to me now.

Ive also been reading a lot of stuff my Meher Baba and that in itself has beeng a truly enlightening experience. I have takin everything he says in the book seroisly and it all fits in and makes sense. All but one teaching......phsycadelics. Im confused now. Stuck between my own mind and that of a "God-Man". But alas....i still do these drugs...why? i dont know....i cant put my finger on it but there is something about them that is strange. I dont feel as if its hindering me in any way because i dont let it. I leave an open mind to what it can do and leave an open one for it being only a drug and therefore was merely false. I do it for the experience....an experience that nothing esle can give me weather it be false or true....its the only way to get that experience...therefore that is the reason i do them.

here is the teaching i was talking about.

Quote:

Excerpts from
GOD IN A PILL?
Meher Baba

In an age when individual liberty is prized above all achievements, the fast-increasing number of drug addicts forms an appalling chain of self-sought bondage! Even as these drugs hold out an invitation to a fleeting sense of ecstasy, freedom or escape, they enslave the individual in greater binding. LSD, a highly potent "mind-changing" drug differing from the opium derivatives and being used in the research of mental science, is said to "expand consciousness and alter one's personality for the better". In America it has become tragically popular among the young, used indiscriminately by any and many. They must be persuaded to desist from taking drugs, for they are harmful ? physically, mentally and spiritually.

All so-called spiritual experiences generated by taking "mind-changing" drugs such as LSD, mescaline and psilocybin are superficial and add enormously to one's addiction to the deceptions of illusion which is but the shadow of Reality.

No drug, whatever its great promise, can help one to attain the spiritual goal. There is no short-cut to the goal except through the grace of the Perfect Master*, and drugs, LSD more than others, give only a semblance of "spiritual experience," a glimpse of a false Reality. [*The Perfect Master is the God-realized being who has completed the cycle of evolution and involution through which consciousness is developed, matured and perfected, and who subsequently elects to return to active participation in creation in order to help other souls perfect consciousness.]

The experience of a semblance of freedom that these drugs may temporarily give to one is in actuality a millstone around the aspirant's neck in his efforts towards emancipation from the rounds of birth and death.

The experience is as far removed from Reality as is a mirage from water. No matter how much one pursues the mirage one will never reach water and the search for God through drugs must end in disillusionment. One who knows the Way, who is the Way, cannot approve the continued pursuance of a method that not only must prove fruitless but leads away from the Path that leads to Reality.

Experiences gained through LSD are, in some cases, experiences of the shadows of the subtle (emotion, energy) plane in the gross (physical) world. These experiences have nothing at all to do with spiritual advancement.

The user of LSD can never reach subtle consciousness in this incarnation despite its repeated use. To experience real spiritual consciousness, surrenderance to a Perfect Master is necessary.

It is human, and therefore necessarily wrongsighted, to view the result of the drug by its immediate relative effects ? to calculate its end result is beyond human knowledge, and only the true Guide can point the way.

The experiences derived through the drugs are experiences by one in the gross world of the shadows of the subtle planes and are not continuous. The experiences of the subtle sphere by one on the subtle planes are continuous, but even these experiences are of illusion, for Reality is beyond them. And so, though LSD may lead one to feel a better man personally, the feeling of having had a glimpse of Reality may not only lull one into a false security but also will in the end derange one's mind. Although LSD is not an addiction-forming drug one can become attached to the experiences arising from its use and one gets tempted to use it in increasing doses, again and again, in the hope of deeper and deeper experiences. But eventually this causes madness or death.

An example of experiences that are shadows of the subtle plane encountered in the gross world is that of a yogi who taught his 150 students to go into trance. When the students came out of the trance they were asked by the yogi to describe their experiences. Their accounts would be amazing to a man in the street, for in their state of trance they saw lights and colours galore ? dazzling lights in colours and in circles and in different designs. They felt all things around them pulsating with light and felt themselves separate from their own bodies and became witness to all things.

Even such experiences as these are but the shadows of the subtle plane experienced in the gross world, for they are not continuous. However, these are NOT spiritually harmful, but neither are they spiritually beneficial. But experiences induced through the use of drugs are harmful physically.

Even actual experiences of the subtle planes in the subtle sphere (which are always continuous) are likened to the pleasure of children playing with toys. However, these experiences are spiritually beneficial since they create a longing in the aspirant for further advancement. But union with God is impossible without the grace of the Perfect Master.

Consciousness is fully evolved and complete as soon as the soul identifies itself with the human form. This consciousness neither increases nor decreases; only the experiences of consciousness increase. Hence the states of sub-sub-super consciousness, sub-super consciousness, super consciousness and God consciousness. This in other words is gross consciousness, subtle consciousness, mental consciousness and God consciousness. The lighter the burden of impressions (sanskaras) the higher the experience of consciousness.

There is also a state of perverted consciousness. It is a state in which consciousness indulges in induced experiences such as those gotten from the use of drugs; and even the most fantastic experiences thus induced are only the shadows of the subtle plane experienced in the gross world.

Only the One who knows and experiences Reality, who is Reality, has the ability and authority to point out the false from the Real. The only Real experience is to continuously see God within oneself as the infinite effulgent ocean of Truth and then to become one with this infinite ocean and continuously experience infinite knowledge, power and bliss.

To a few sincere seekers, LSD may have served as a means to arouse that spiritual longing which has brought them into my contact, but once that purpose is served further ingestion would not only be harmful but have no point or purpose. The longing for Reality cannot be sustained by further use of drugs but only by the love for the Perfect Master which is a reflection of his love for the seeker.

An individual may feel LSD has made a "better" man of him socially and personally. But one will be a better man through Love than one can ever be through drugs or any other artificial aid. And the best man is he who has surrendered himself to the Perfect Master irrespective of his personal or social standing.

As for possible use of the drug by an enlightened society for spiritual purposes ? an enlightened society would never dream of using it!

All the experiences even of spiritual aspirants on the Path to God-realization (gotten in the natural course of involution of consciousness) are of the domain of Illusion and are ephemeral and absolutely unimportant; how much more illusory and distracting are the experiences through substances compounded in a laboratory which have the semblance of those of the aspirant on the Spiritual Path! The one and only true experience is the experience of the Truth, the Reality; for once the realization of God is attained it remains a continual and never-ending experience.

The all-pervading effulgence of God the Reality can only be experienced by an aspirant who keeps himself scrupulously above all illusory experimentations and humbly takes refuge in love of God.

God can only be realized by loving Him with all the love at one's command ? pure, simple and unadulterated love. When one's love for God, and God alone, is at its zenith true longing for union with God is greatest, and the aspirant's ego assertion is then at its lowest point.

The aspirant at this stage is in the sixth plane of consciousness (vide God Speaks) and "sees" God face to face in all His glory. The aspirant experiences this without fear of fluctuation in his continual and never-ending experiencing of "seeing" the glory of God. Even this most sublime experience of "seeing" God face to face falls short of the only true experience ? union with God the Reality.

It is absolutely essential for a spiritual aspirant who genuinely longs for union with God ? the Reality ? to shun experiments with the effects of certain drugs. These things do not uplift the aspirant nor draw him out of the rut of Illusion. Experiences born of these practices wear off as soon as the aspirant withdraws from or is thrown out of the orbit of the effect produced by the technique employed.

But there is no drug that can promote the aspirant's progress ? nor ever alleviate the sufferings of separation from his beloved God. LOVE is the only propeller and the only remedy. The aspirant should love God with all his heart till he forgets himself and recognizes his beloved God in himself and others.

Even the experiences of the planes of consciousness are only another kind of an illusion! Experiences of the planes are "Real Illusion", whereas those derived from the use of drugs are illusion into "False Illusion". This mudane life and the experiences thereof are a "dream into a dream"; whereas the traversing of the spiritual Path by the seekers who gain experiences of planes of consciousness is a "dream".

Medically there are legitimate uses of LSD. It can be used beneficially for chronic alcoholism, for severe and serious cases of depression and for relief in mental illnesses. Use of LSD other than for specific medical purposes is harmful physically, mentally and spiritually.

Any drug when used medically for diseases, under the direct supervision of a medical practitioner, is not impermissible and cannot be classed with individual usage of a drug for what one can get out of it ? or hopes to get out of it ? whether thrills, forgetfulness, or a delusion of spiritual experience.

LSD and other psychedelic drugs should never be used except when prescribed by a professional medical practitioner in the case of serious mental disorder under his direct supervision.

In short, LSD can be used beneficially for specific medical purposes, but for spiritual progress it is not only useless but positively harmful.

If the student world continues to indulge in the use of LSD, the best of its intellectual potential will be lost to the nation.

Use of LSD produces hallucinations, and prolonged use of this drug will lead to mental derangement, which even the medical use of LSD would fail to cure.


GOD IN A PILL?






--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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OfflineVulture
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Vulture]
    #1642475 - 06/18/03 04:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug... [Re: Vulture]
    #1643870 - 06/19/03 08:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps Meher Baba didn't know anything about LSD, but felt threatened by it because his services as Savior of the Universe might not be needed if "God in a pill" was actually available?


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