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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,887
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Tag_Number]
    #3384784 - 11/19/04 04:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

im gona sniff this word to..
en-light-en-ment

en-1 or em- or in-
pref.

To put into or onto: encapsulate.
To go into or onto: enplane.

-light-
n.
A source of light, especially a lamp, a lantern, or an electric lighting fixture: Turn out the lights when you leave.

en-1 or em- or in-
pref.

To put into or onto: encapsulate.
To go into or onto: enplane.

-ment
suff.
Action; process: appeasement.
Result of an action or process: advancement.
Means, instrument, or agent of an action or process: adornment.


--------------------


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Disclaimer!?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,041
meditation is not like taking drugs [Re: Gomp]
    #3384936 - 11/19/04 05:05 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

if you do meditation to get into jhanas the jhanas normally don't happen, the reason to get into meditation is for the centering, or for the spiritual quest, to find out who you are or what is what; when approached in this way, the jhanas are likely to happen but much more than that, the obsessive patterns cease during the effort, and in that way it is very therapeutic, meantime the quest gets underway on a moment to moment basis.

the work laden option of meditation has the side effect is that you become mentally more agile. psychedellic is not equivalent to meditation at all in this way. the taker of psychedellic is not necesarily a person on a sincere quest - it is more entertainment, and meditation is very much less entertainment and more refuge.

however a lot of interest in meditation occurs from people who have taken psychedellic, who have glipsed something that triggers the quest or that clarifies a need for refuge. In meditation one finds refuge in the moment, and one pursues the questing in the moment.
in psychedellic one is tossed into the moment and must surf.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: creativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3384948 - 11/19/04 05:07 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

9999


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (11/21/04 05:37 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Tag_Number] * 1
    #3385136 - 11/19/04 05:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Drawings done while on acid generally look like a grade-schoolers scribbles, but are "awesome" in the mind of the tripper. Try it and see.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineTag_Number
Experience
Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 154
Loc: Soma dreaming itself
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385168 - 11/19/04 05:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Then take some psilocybin.

You havent felt anything till the machine gun analogy neurotransmitters.
It fires the same nerve repeatively, instead of normally making a new path.


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OfflineSamus
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Registered: 10/11/04
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Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3385176 - 11/19/04 05:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
I would really like to know the opinion of all of you folks here on this issue.

1.-----

Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?
In other words, are they the "real" thing, like having near death experiences or meditation? Are they a connection to ultimate truth
in a direct way, rather than just illusion.
Do you really feel connected, and do you really experience the energy of everything, or Is this just another form of hallucination?

2.-----

And allso If the answer to all that is YES, how do you explain it?
What is your theory? What happens to your brain that gives you these "abilities" so to speak?

3.-----

And how do you incorporate impaired abilities to function in this world, and visual hallucinations into this theory?

Looking forward to hearing your opinions and theories




Most of the mush i've done so far was tkaen while I was on SSRI's, so I can't really comment on it. LSD is another story :P

1. What this spiritual drug does is give you a focussed insight on your personal issues and your ego; this is less of an opinionated thing and more of a medical fact pertaining to the effects of LSD-25.

2. There is no theory behind the effects of substances.. Often when I go for a walk, open my bag of weed and put it in my pipe I ask myself "Why does the Marijuana get me stoned, but all these other plants/trees I see don't?" What these things do to us we will never be able to explain.. LSD-25 is the most potent chemical drug in the world and it is derived from something as simple as rye bread.

3. Visual Hallucinations are another thing that will always boggle my mind. There's nothing explaining them, they simply occur once the user starts experiencing the effects...

I had a very life changing visual experience on 2 tabs of high-grade british columbia acid. Before I go into it I want to make you all aware of a large photograph I have on the wall in my living room. it is a picture of my entire family, 2 parents 4 kids, all in ski-gear out on a day of skiing. Well this evening when I was on the LSD, I was washing my face in my mirror, and in the reflection of my mirror, I saw my entire family standing behind my in tbe bathtub, including myself. It was absolutely bizarre... since the original photograph was taken my family had been split up and alot of shit had happened. It really reminded me of the old days...

For the days th at followed this experience I felt very differant. I felt like something great had just happened in my life, but there was nothing.. Like a great weight was lifted off my shoulders. Within weeks my thoughts became more refreshed and my mind became less shrouded by all the bullshit that doesn't matter in the world. During the night that I was on it I lost all memory of what the real, sober world looked like..

Now it's about a year since I took it and to this day when I smoke ganja I get slight memories of the trip. Everything is simply differant now.

Please share your absolutely killer experiences on drugs as well.


Edited by Samus (11/19/04 06:00 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,041
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385187 - 11/19/04 05:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Drawings done while on acid generally look like a grade-schoolers scribbles, but are "awesome" in the mind of the tripper. Try it and see.



during the effects one's motor co-ordination
and guidance are debilitated, afterwards
it truly is an effort to retain any semblance
of the gift, but if you do retain it,
there is no question of benefit.

also if you are just looking at the phenomenon
from outside, it would help if you
qualified your authority accordingly.


--------------------


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3385277 - 11/19/04 06:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

but if you do retain it, there is no question of benefit.

Mighty big IF! Who retains it? If the vast majority cannot retain anything and someone creates art many months years later, the causation or triggering mechanism is impossible to locate.

Do the following post-LSD lyrics show evidence of advanced creativity or a higher spiritual perception?

Doors/Morrison

Wha, yeah!
C'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon
Oh, yeah, ma
Yeah, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girl understand
Hey, all you people that tryin' to sleep
I'm out to make it with my midnight dream, yeah
'Cause I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
All right, yeah
You men eat your dinner
Eat your pork and beans
I eat more chicken
Than any man ever seen, yeah, yeah
I'm a back door man, wha
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
Well, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
Whoa, baby, I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinealphaone
Big Detail
Male
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385406 - 11/19/04 06:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


The usage of an ad hominem argument has long been disallowed in a logical debate.





Ah, so. There's a saying in my mother tongue: When caught, the thief yells "Catch the thief!".




Quote:


Seriously, you never heard of increased creativity and artistic expression as a result of using psychedelics?

Ah, heresay evidence. I have heard of many myths. Real-world testing has shown otherwise.








Give me some proof of that 'real-world' testing that has shown otherwise (somehow I have a feeling it's going to feature only the examples of testing done by the US government).



Quote:


Someone new to the forum is called a _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank).







Technically, yes.

Beyond that (the mere fact that someone has just joined a certain forum) I don't see what you're trying to imply by this. I might just as well conclude that you are resorting to the ad hominem argument here.

and one more fallacious argument:

Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").






Quote:


Seems only a few here see the total irony of the juxtaposition of self-righteous anger and claims of enlightenment.





I've never claimed I am enlightened, have I?


Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 06:39 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
    #3385453 - 11/19/04 06:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Hypothesis: Drugs lead to enlightenment.

Fact 1: You have taken psychedelics. Others here have taken psychedelics.

Fact 2: This is the largest ever known community of mushroom-takers in the history of the world. You are not enlightened. No one else here claims to be enlightened.

Question answered.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385454 - 11/19/04 06:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Do the following post-LSD lyrics show evidence of advanced creativity or a higher spiritual perception?

Doors/Morrison

Wha, yeah!
C'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon, yeah
Yeah, c'mon
Oh, yeah, ma
Yeah, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girl understand
Hey, all you people that tryin' to sleep
I'm out to make it with my midnight dream, yeah
'Cause I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
All right, yeah
You men eat your dinner
Eat your pork and beans
I eat more chicken
Than any man ever seen, yeah, yeah
I'm a back door man, wha
The men don't know
But the little girls understand
Well, I'm a back door man
I'm a back door man
Whoa, baby, I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand




The back door is the path to enlightenment.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 15 years, 13 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: silversoul7]
    #3385469 - 11/19/04 06:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

LOL @ Jim Morrison understanding a path to enlightenment....

Awesome poet, decent vocalist, ok counter-culture philosopher but guru???


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: oceansize]
    #3385542 - 11/19/04 07:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

"Hypothesis: Drugs lead to enlightenment.

Fact 1: You have taken psychedelics. Others here have taken psychedelics.

Fact 2: This is the largest ever known community of mushroom-takers in the history of the world. You are not enlightened. No one else here claims to be enlightened.

Question answered. "

Invalid - counterexample1:

Hypothesis: First street leads to the church
Fact one: I have taken 1rst Street. My friends have all taken first street.
Fact two: Among the largest community of 1rst street takers, my friends, none have ended up at the church.

Conclusion: First street does not go to the church.

Contradiction: Map:
.......................|
.......................|......Main Street
.......................>>>>>>>>>-----
.....................M.^
.....................a.^
.....................p.^
.....................l.^
.....................e.^
..First Street...st.^......The church
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>------------


>>>>>>> = path of friends, ---- = roads.

Your argument is invalid man. It doesn't work.


Edited by tomk (11/19/04 07:20 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: tomk]
    #3385558 - 11/19/04 07:21 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Asking people how to get somewhere who have never been there and have no map will give you what possible answer(s)?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinealphaone
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Registered: 01/29/04
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Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385587 - 11/19/04 07:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Hypothesis: Drugs lead to enlightenment.

Fact 1: You have taken psychedelics. Others here have taken psychedelics.

Fact 2: This is the largest ever known community of mushroom-takers in the history of the world. You are not enlightened. No one else here claims to be enlightened.

Question answered.





Wrong. And again too many distorsions of other people's statements. You also forgot to answer other questions, and to clarify why you think that just being a long term member makes your statements somehow more valid by default.


The original hypothesis was (I quote):

- "Do you think that drugs really induce higher levels of consciousness and are a path for true enligtenment?"

Just because I or 99% of the members here are not completely enlightened does not mean that psychedelics are not a path to higher levels of consciousness or enlightment.

There may be some here who are enlightened to some extent, but those usually won't say it openly. Perhaps they don't even know they are enlightened.


Logical fallacies in this latest post of yours include:


- Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).

- Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle

- Counting the hits and forgetting the misses (vice versa in your case)

and most importantly:

- Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.


Sorry man.


Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 07:28 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
    #3385605 - 11/19/04 07:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

and to clarify why you think that just being a long term member makes your statements somehow more valid by default.

This is a standard strawman. Please post the specific line where I said that.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Onlinedeff
mysticlove
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385616 - 11/19/04 07:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

nice one tomk :smile:


--------------------



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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: deff]
    #3385661 - 11/19/04 07:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Nice one? If no one is aware of the alternate route, how is it possible to intelligently discuss it?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
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Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385878 - 11/19/04 08:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Swami, your objections have nothing at all to do with my point. My point was your argument isn't valid, so even if your premises are all true (questionable), your conclusion could either be true or false. "If no one is aware of the alternate route, how is it possible to intelligently discuss it?" does not resolve the flaw in your logic. To answer the question, it could be that no one is aware of the alternate route but each of the people knows 1 part of it, and from their mutual knowledge they find out where no one person was aware. But it has nothing at all to do with my objection to the logic of your argument.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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Offlinealphaone
Big Detail
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 144
Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3385968 - 11/19/04 08:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


This is a standard strawman. Please post the specific line where I said that.






Granted, you didn't say that anywhere explicitly. However, look into the implicit meaning behind these statements:


Quote:


And what does me being a "newbie" have to do with anything?
1. You come in violating the rules.


Even more sad is yet another newbie (about 186 by my count) who is UNABLE to respond to (or ignore) a post WITHOUT playing the "Let's psychoanalyze the poster" game.


this form of double-speakian conversation is classic newbie phase II







Emphasizing that other posters are newbies, that they are violating the rules (set by you, I presume), addressing the newbies from high above, counting the number of newbies who, as it were, analyzed your ego games...

Just think about that.





As for your logical deduction, there are countless examples to refute it. E.g.

[the time is 1970s, place: some lab where cloning experiments were done)

Hypothesis: It is possible to clone a living organism.

Fact 1: You have tried to clone a living organism. Other scientists have tried to clone a living organism.

Fact 2: This is the largest community of scientists that is attempting to clone a living organism. You haven't succeeded, we haven't succeeded. Cloning of a living organism cannot be done.



Now replace cloning with: finding cure for HIV/AiDS, finding cure for tuberculosis, finding a supernova whose explosion can be observed in our lifetime...


Edited by alphaone (11/19/04 09:06 PM)


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