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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3379145 - 11/18/04 01:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

My outlook on this:
After ingesting a large dose of psychedelics the relative mechanical and conditioned clockwork of the brain is flooded with chemicals, breaking the boundaries of mundane thought. Passive thoughts and 'felts' flows over to active thinking and feeling.
When taking large doses, complete chaos may appear (i.e. not knowing who you are or what is happening). This is a phase of great discomfort, but not a bad-trip.

After this phase a new order will crystallize from the chaos and the compass of the self will be set.
I would compare this with chaos theory, where a new order can spontaneously emerge from a completely chaotic system when the system is subjected to an external attractor. I assume that the attractor affecting the chaotic brainfunctions is not physical (in the sense we usually use the word) but of a subtler order. The flow of the Tao sweeping harmoniously through your mind perhaps :sun:

The point is that this new order is a gestalt, and is manifest from higher orders to the lower, not the other way. The strange attractor leavs its mark on the chaotic system, the chaotic system does not change the attractor.
"the subtle is more powerful" -David Bohm

Many will experience this newfound crystalline order as enlightenment, I know I did anyway.

Strange thing, in this pure and holy state of mind, I felt I could answer all the important questions, but when I asked myself "what happens when you become normal? Where does enlightenment go?", I had no idea how to solve the problem. Perhaps since I wouldn't go along with the thought that it was psilocybin that did this to me. "This is the power of pure being!", I persisted :crazy2:. Well, eventually I had to succumb to tiredness and loss of power.

After the holy fire had burned enlightenment through my veins, the ashes that remained obstructed the flow. The moring after I felt drained of energy.

Bottom line; we need more power! A steady supply; some fuel that doesn't leave behind waste-products. This can be achieved with various  spiritual/martial exercises i suppose, but the lazy man I am, I really would have prefered an easy way out  :grin:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3379242 - 11/18/04 01:50 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know if this is logical or not,
It's not.

but since psychadelics and meditation/NDE (and other "real" ways)
can lead you to similar or same experiences

Ten years of meditation never gave me (or other meditators that I know) one experience even remotely like that obtained by dropping acid or eating shrooms.

/thoughts/conclusions-about-universe ,
If you think they lead you to the same thoughts then you have probably not spent much time at Politics and Law. Before shrooms America was divided into hawks and doves. After shrooms America is divided into hawks and doves.

It would be too much of a coincedence that one of them is
somehow "real" and other is just a mindless delusion.

As your premise is flawed, the conclusion must be flawed.

So either all those ways are real, or all of those ways are delusions.
See the thread "False Dichotomies".


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3379344 - 11/18/04 02:16 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Swami, what does America and politics have to do with spirituality?
Why would drugs change America or the world? It's not like every trip you have will lead you to enlightenment. With most people, most of the time, trips are just cool hallucinations.

So ten years never gave you the same results, then you don't fall under the cathegory of this thread. We are talking about those rare instances where people say they experience the same thing with drugs and with NDE or meditation. Like OBE's and ego-death.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


Edited by skystone (11/18/04 02:26 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3379549 - 11/18/04 03:03 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

If a hundred thousand people trip 20 times, and out of that one person one time has an enlightening experience, it would be scientifically inaccurate to link cause and effect between substance and mind-state, no?


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Offlineskystone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3379775 - 11/18/04 04:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Well, its not like there is one person on every hundred thousant that says he has experienced an enlightening experience. On higher dosages of LSD, it is not even unusual to say that.

And as for those who do not experience anything regarding one-nes, energy flowing through everything, universal love, ego-death or other feelings or experiences that might be linked to something beyond this plane of existence, most of them are not using sufficient dosage, or
just can't let go of their ego's and the analitic-symbolic nature of our human thinking.

Allso, I belive that a trip is a two-way communication. The chemicals
clean up the stage, set the lights, and the show can begin, but this is an interactive show. I belive expectations do play a big role.
And I belive that you must give yourself to the trip, leave everything behind, and just give yourself. Same as with meditation.
I don't practice meditation, but I suspect that you can't just sit there are wait for something to happen, you can only fall to sleep that way. It is a technique.

You know those keyboards that have all kinds of shortcut buttons
on top that activate programs like word, other windows friendly functions etc. So when you want to clean the keyboard with a cloth, you end up pushing everything, and the next thing you know your desktop is going wild. All kinds of programs start poping up, it's a chaos.
I belive it's the same with psychadelics. It just activates all kinds of programs in your brain. It's a chaos. And one of those programs might be some kind of "dial-up" connection with your deeper (or higher, whatever you prefer to call it) parts of consciousness that
might lead you to a state of hyper awareness of life and the universe.
In some people, the button for that is just not hit. Others get freaked out. And some know how to as Leary says "surf the waves of chaos" and turn of all those chaotic programs on the desktop and just keep the one they want.

Considering everything I have said above, I do not think that
it is inacurate to connect such an altered state of mind with drugs.

There is one more reason for that:
You live like 80 years, and out of all the days in your life, your
"enlightened" experience just had to happed the same day you took acid or shrooms, and it had to happen a few hours after you took it.
Now isn't that a coincedence?

So yes, I belive if you epxerience something like that DURING a trip,
then it probably was triggered by the trip.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlinedeff
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Re: need a bus pass to chicago asap [Re: skystone]
    #3379806 - 11/18/04 04:09 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

the concept of enlightenment is a fallacy itself

it is adopted prior to development, and during development one drops many unneeded and seemingly 'false' values and barriers, and yet usually hold this ideal.

let go let go let go. see what's left. or rather, be what's left :smile:

there is no fine line between unenlightened/enlightened. it is a subjective interpretations (as is everything), and so only an external observer would apply the label upon another. 'you' will never cross over from unenlightenment to enlightenment, nor will such a label be applicable to yourself.

you're either there and don't realize it, or you realize it. either way, there's no difference. :smile:

Drugs shift awareness. They do not shift position. Let go let go let go :cool:


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Offlineskystone
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Re: need a bus pass to chicago asap [Re: deff]
    #3379908 - 11/18/04 04:32 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Well, yea perhapse I should have simplified my first questions in the begining.
There is always a less complicated way to say things that I usually do. I guess the meaning of my original question was:
Do drugs shift awareness (as deff puts it) and really expand consciousness.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlinedeff
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Re: need a bus pass to chicago asap [Re: skystone]
    #3379921 - 11/18/04 04:35 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

there is no absolute value to judge that by

if you consider them to, then they do

there's just a lot of people, nothing more :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3379939 - 11/18/04 04:40 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
Reading all that, I just had another thought.
I don't know if this is logical or not, but
since psychadelics and meditation/NDE (and other "real" ways)
can lead you to similar or same experiences/thoughts/conclusions-about-universe , then both of those ways are either false or genuine.
It would be too much of a coincedence that one of them is
somehow "real" and other is just a mindless delusion.
So either all those ways are real, or all of those ways are delusions.




yes,

many meditators begin to believe that they are something special - it can get unbearable.

likely based upon illusions that emerge from their conditioning during the process, epiphany can just be bunk.

there ws a lovely painitng of the temptation of St. Antony and many of Buddha being challenged by MARA this is what you are pointing out and it is 100% valid.

no methods of expanding awareness guarantee clarity of approach, that is part of ongoing mindfulness and an orientation toward the middle way.

meantime, swami's long and unsatisfying history with meditation is an indicator that some will not be able to go to some longed for places.
possibly the longing is too great.


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Offlinealphaone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3380019 - 11/18/04 04:59 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


One point of view would be that only meditation and death is a genuine way to enlightenment and that drugs only cause hallucinations
out of whatever reason. The other point of view would be that
psychadelics really cause a state of consciousness similar to that
in meditation or death.





This is something I was pondering about for quite a while, Skystone. Do psychedelics really open doors of perception through which we can get access to other, deeper realities.

After my first and second shroom trip I was blown away (in a positive way). After the third and fourth trip I started to have some serious doubts about whether psychedic trip opens doors of another reality or just distorts this reality (i.e. messes up the brain). Those latter trips were not bad in any way, but I didn't really grasp the 'meaning' so to speak.

After my two recent shroom trips, however, I concluded that it is much more probable that psychedelics do indeed open one's mind to different realities which really exist, that they do not produce merely a twisted form of ordinary reality.

For this I have two definite proofs. Before I took mushrooms, my visualisation skills were mediocre if not below average. E.g. When I listened to music I was able to imagine some visualisations, but they were all pretty bland.

After several shroom trips, however, my visualisation skills have gone from level 2 to level 2000. Now even when I'm not shroomed I can think of so complex images in motion that had been totally out of my reach before taking psychedelics. And these images are not superficial kaleidoscopes, they are like... like my imagination broke up all the chains and gone totally WILD in a positive way of the word. WOW! What a difference. Give me any song and I'll make the most perfect video for that song. No, not only one, but hundreds of them. And let somebody tell me that psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression.

The other thing that happened to me was that while bemushroomed I was able to compose and literally hear the most amazing music (in total silence). I was kind of suspicious about that at first. I thought I was just hallucinating, my brain simply repeating some tunes that I had heard before. I managed to record some of the tunes after the trip, and lo and behold - they were not copied from someone else's work, I really invented them myself.

The richness of imagery and soundscapes is so utterly convincing and complex that I am quite sure it is not a product of a hallucination or a disordered mind. I'm now much more inclined to think that this is in fact the result of insight into deeper realities that had always existed in my mind but of which I was unaware before. 


However, psychedelics open these doors only for a short period of time. All my life I haven't been trained in the fields of visual expression and music, so although I can visualise pictures and hear music much much better than before, I still lack technical skills to manifest and materialize them.


I know all this might sound pretty irrelevant to your question, but for me it was the most striking changes psychedelics produced, and I liken them to being more aware of my abilites (which is a first step towards enlightment, I think).


The only thing that worries me is that after these last two trips I became very depressed and in some sort of a limbo. I never felt so negative in all my life. Who knows why's that. Perhaps a phase? :smile:


Edited by alphaone (11/18/04 05:08 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3380088 - 11/18/04 05:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

psychedelics have their place, but at some point you have to be able to do it without the drugs.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3380102 - 11/18/04 05:14 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

meantime, swami's long and unsatisfying history with meditation is an indicator that some will not be able to go to some longed for places.
possibly the longing is too great.


I never said meditation did not teach me anything; merely that it led to no mystical places nor cosmic wisdom. No training is wasted. I now prefer meditation-in-action such as sports as opposed to sitting meditation.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3380286 - 11/18/04 05:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

alphaone:
"After several shroom trips, however, my visualisation skills have gone from level 2 to level 2000. Now even when I'm not shroomed I can think of so complex images in motion that had been totally out of my reach before taking psychedelics. And these images are not superficial kaleidoscopes, they are like... like my imagination broke up all the chains and gone totally WILD in a positive way of the word. WOW! What a difference. Give me any song and I'll make the most perfect video for that song. No, not only one, but hundreds of them. And let somebody tell me that psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression."

alphaone:

I know what you mean, I know the feeling. Only I had it all my life.
You know those rochah ink blots? Well, I can tell you stories and stories about them. My friends think I'm crazy.
My imagination runs wild every day, and I see all these images, films
running through my head when I am alone and stimulated by some surroundings. It is wonderfull.
This is why I like taking looong walks alone in unformiliar parts of my town.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3380315 - 11/18/04 05:57 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

swami
I really do not know what you did for 10 yrs or why your statement above seemed to indicate that it was unsatisfying to such a degree, but I am sure that you find what you seek. i.e. I hope you are keeping up your progress to your sporting goal(s).

maybe you can be more clear about the type of meditation (more than a single descriptive word would be great) you investigated (immersed in for 10 yrs), but feel free to be as discrete as necessary.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: alphaone]
    #3380336 - 11/18/04 06:03 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

And let somebody tell me that psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression.

Psychedelics don't enhance artistic expression. Anything else?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3380484 - 11/18/04 06:49 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Swami

I don't question your logic , you seem to operate on
healthy reasoning in debates, but I have noticed since I have came here that you put a certain amount of some internal subtle and masked feelings in those discussions. Of course you will probably denie that, but it seems to me that most things you say have a negative note in them. As if you are fighting a war here.
And it all comes in a form of skepticism towards everything.
It's as every discussion with you does not begin with a neutral ground (and then starts leaning towards something), but starts with a negation and then is supose to lean towards afirmation but of course it doesn't.
Let me just say that being naive (what I suspect you hate most) is the same as being too sceptical, just reversed.
Some people blindly belive that something exists, and some blindly belive that it does not. And both of these blindly believe.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3380508 - 11/18/04 06:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Ah... welcome to Swami. :wink:  :grin:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: skystone]
    #3380571 - 11/18/04 07:05 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Drug users HATE negative misinformation such as LSD will alter your DNA, but LOVE positive misinformation such as LSD will increase your creativity.

Drug users HATE negative misinformation such as LSD will make you psychotic, but LOVE positive misinformation such as LSD will make you enlightened.

I HATE misinformation. Period. Guess that is somehow negatively biased.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #3380605 - 11/18/04 07:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

some utterances are just for the sake of the noise they make.
that is the essence of art.

in this way swami is an expressioniste


psychedellic is part of my creative process for both fine art (just got a gallery!! woohoo!) and for object oriented programming and system design, but I am not going to make any big deal about that. on the other hand I do not engage in competitive sports with balls or other projectiles.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: drugs and spirituality/enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3380612 - 11/18/04 07:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

"You were right when you told me you were wrong. "
-unknown :P


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