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InvisibleIcelander
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Revisiting Enlightenment.
    #6655695 - 03/10/07 10:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The other night Hue and I had an interesting conversation and he has an interesting view on enlightenment.

What does enlightenment mean for you?

Also what does the enlightened person act like?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (03/10/07 10:03 PM)


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655735 - 03/10/07 10:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

To me, enlightenment is similar to Castaneda's "stopping the world." For that reason, it cannot be named and maintained at the same time. It is the state of no internal dialog, when looking at a normally identifiable object render no judgment, indeed, one may be asking oneself exactly what one is seeing or experiencing, when they have seen it a million times before. It is a state of being in between states of being, an inevitable question that cannot be answered but must be asked, an ultimate realization that no realizations are true. Temporary permanence. Seeing what isn't seen, and feeling what isn't felt, or hearing what isn't heard. And all the while, knowing, with some uncertainty, that everything you know, you know by association and nothing else. If I could capture a moment of what, to me, is enlightenment, everyone could experience it equally, with the same validity of the experience, and the same description, because it is an indescribable state, and while there, one knows that to be there in itself is paradox. It is both a void, empty of dimension or color or any relative description that the mind could ever comprehend, and the sum total of the descriptive powers of the mind, existing without any arrangement whatsoever.

In other words, I have no fucking idea. :smile:


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655740 - 03/10/07 10:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655745 - 03/10/07 10:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The other night Hue and I had an interesting conversation and he has an interesting view on enlightenment.

What does enlightenment mean for you?

Also what does the enlightened person act like?




Like?

Its self...

What? Of many answers, I chose this one; "Being of the light, in the light!"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6655746 - 03/10/07 10:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

In other words, I have no fucking idea. :laugh: I like this.

I'm hoping Hue will chime in here soon and fire this discussion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655753 - 03/10/07 10:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Nope, can't say I agree.

I'm more inclined toward the continual realization that 'Everything I know is just a matter of my opinion."

I'm not just saying that Castaneda wise either, most things I have read have lead toward silence of the internal dialog, and unconditional acceptance of everything about oneself, both inside and out.

My biggest problem with Sinbad's statement is that humans, for all our societies have given us, are so bombarded with extremes, that to assume what we believe is not an extreme is to be only fooling ourselves.


The specialist will eventually know everything about nothing.
The generalist will eventually know nothing about everything.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


Edited by justamonkey (03/10/07 10:46 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655795 - 03/10/07 11:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Enlightenment to me is when all afflictive obscurations have been purified.

Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood carry water and maybe teach those who are open, but mainly chop wood and carry water. :lol:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (03/10/07 11:24 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655801 - 03/10/07 11:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.




Why would it seem that way to you? Is it because you are confusing the term ignorance perhaps, and what that term implies?


--------------------


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6655811 - 03/10/07 11:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

justamonkey said:
Nope, can't say I agree.

I'm more inclined toward the continual realization that 'Everything I know is just a matter of my opinion."

I'm not just saying that Castaneda wise either, most things I have read have lead toward silence of the internal dialog, and unconditional acceptance of everything about oneself, both inside and out.

My biggest problem with Sinbad's statement is that humans, for all our societies have given us, are so bombarded with extremes, that to assume what we believe is not an extreme is to be only fooling ourselves.


The specialist will eventually know everything about nothing.
The generalist will eventually know nothing about everything.




I don't quite follow what you're trying to say here.


--------------------


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655817 - 03/10/07 11:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Enlightenment to me means Buddhahood, and Buddhahood means awareness. We are all Buddhas. But that doesn't mean we all realize we are Buddhas. We are like fish swimming in water that don't realize we are swimming in water, and so, because of this ignorance, we give rise to all sorts of problems, like greed, attachment, hatred, etc. Enlightment is simply realizing what we all intrinsically are: selfless, impermanent, and empty. It's one thing to say this and to have knowledge of this, but another entirely to really understand it, down to the marrow of your bones. True understanding is true 'enlightenment'.

What does the enlightened person act like? That's impossible to say. Actions are based on situations, and to put an enlightened person's actions in a box would simply be another illusion. In general, the precepts are said to be the expression of the enlightened or Buddha nature itself. So they would be a rough guideline for how an enlightened person would act. However, precepts are not commandments set in stone, and so if acting by a certain precept would not be the appropriate action in a given situation, then doubtless an enlightened person would deviate from the precepts in accordance with compassion or whatever else was necessary.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655827 - 03/10/07 11:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.




Yes, I agree.

It is relatively more rare to find an 'enlightened' person than an ignorant one, but it's not unlikely if one really puts all one's effort into it.

"Afflictive obscurations" arise when there is ignorance of your true nature. Once you get rid of these false views and actions, then you walk the eightfold path, and enlightenment could come at any time. In fact, in the words of master Dogen, practice is itself enlightenment. It is an expression of enlightenment, just like breathing is an expression of life. Because we are alive, we breathe, and because we breathe, we are alive. Just so, we practice because we are enlightened, and we are enlightened because we practice.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: dblaney]
    #6655886 - 03/10/07 11:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

a compass points in a direction (north) and all other directions can be determined from this, so within the scope of our lifetimes we can use such a direction as an absolute or a true direction.

absolute north.

scientifically the idea of north can be refined endlessly and can be edited over millenia so it si never absolute (though it seems to have a lot of consistency), and the idea of a PURE direction becomes a more real Relative direction, when it is seen for what it is against more "realities" - i.e. in more time slices.

when we use the word "north", however, we can be pretty comfortable about it's meaning in nearly every context - comfortable that what we think and mean is really well set up for sharing with others and our own future needs.

almost everything else, except North, is very subject to the flux of surrounding conditions and must accommodate the carooming movements of a multiplicity of other beings and bodies in all sorts of directions.

what we are looking for when we say the "middle way" or the "cessation of suffering" (both of which characterize enlightenment) are directions that are much more dynamic than North.

kind of like a living compass within.

It is not the TRUE MIDDLE WAY that we seek (a proven or known thing), but an available temporary position in our own living path that is balancing our attitudes in an intelligent way.

For enlightenment we seek a kind of mentation that promotes finding and working with dynamic balancing direction finding like this.

Absolutes become replaced with plasticities, rigidities with fluidity, certainties with openness.

It seems a paradox in terms but not in fact. The enlightened way is not coming in from a fixed ray like from heaven, and it is not a thing that has been enlightened by any single event (inside or outside), nor is it enlightened for all time. (like the christian "good to go" shrive my soul kind of thing).

Still it is always accessible and directly knowable.

naturally talking about it is not the same as taking up the middle way


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6655894 - 03/10/07 11:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655951 - 03/11/07 12:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.




It means, completely purified, as in free from affliction and no chance whatsoever for the afflictive obscurations to arise again. The primary root of the poisonous tree (ignorance) has been cut, never to grow back.


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655952 - 03/11/07 12:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.



like true north
pure is a relative direction,

the phrase consistently refreshing covers the scope where Pure is usually employed.

Pure is not really a living term


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6655965 - 03/11/07 12:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.




It means, completely purified, as in no chance whatsoever for afflictive obscurations to arise again. The primary root of the poisonous tree (ignorance) has been cut, never to grow back.




what poisonous tree?
are you building a self / not-self axis of evil to chop and kill.

this needs to be reconnected into one living thing


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6655973 - 03/11/07 12:11 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Don't get hung up on words red, its a metaphor. The three afflictions of ignorance, craving and hatred form the 'poisonous tree' that consistently produce the causes and fruits of our suffering.

It maybe your xtian conditioning that is bringing up all these ideas of evil, etc.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6655978 - 03/11/07 12:13 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Since Hue isn't around right now I will try to get his ideas across. Hue likened Enlightenment to DJs idea of impeccability. Not that one never again falls off his path but that one always brings things back to center. This is quite different from the traditional ideas of Enlightenment. The problem I have with the traditional ideas or the ideas of some here is that none to my knowledge ever experience them. Only the figures of the past. Others talk as if they know enlightenment but I'm guessing that they are just repeating something they believe in rather than embody. If there are no examples (living breathing examples) then I remain skeptical to say the least.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6655992 - 03/11/07 12:18 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

we can use metaphors to awaken parts of the whole to eachother,
then put the metaphors (compasses and clocks) back in the bag.
these sayings have even less use than "north" in an absolute or pure sense.

after waking up to some aspect of truth flexibility and cohesion is the next thing you want.

our jusxtaposition is in the realm
living dharma vs rigid dogma


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656004 - 03/11/07 12:20 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

There are many living and breathing examples, that is the big difference with the buddhist path. It consistently produces examples of what it teaches (not that i am anywhere near that example).

But there are also a lot of charlatans out there ready to take your money. But in a real sense, the only way you can ever know enlightenment, is to discover it within your own experience. Little tastes along the way will always provide inspiration.

As you know, the Buddha was not fond of anyone taking anything that he said on blind faith.


--------------------


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