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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Epigallo]
    #6657608 - 03/11/07 01:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think that enlightenment is well cast as a state
it is much more like an attitude.

or even better as a quality within a series of attitudes.
states of mind relate to the retention and overlay of images - the amount of electrical stickiness or twang to the mind. Like dream states or stoned states or hysterical states. Enlightenment can penetrate those states. One still dreams, one still faces desire, one still has sex, one still quaffs wine.

enlightenment works to brighten the world and to lighten the psychic load (suffering) whatever the state of mind. or whatever the state of the union.

i.e. through good times and bad.


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Offlinearyah
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6657981 - 03/11/07 07:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
As you know, the Buddha was not fond of anyone taking anything that he said on blind faith.

And I don't as I have said. I am just not sure as I don't consider myself enlightened in this sense and have never met anyone who seems to be. The times I did think that I felt over time that I was mistaken.

As leary said, enlighten does not make one perfect. That makes sense to me.




Enlightenment doesn't make one perfect in a relative sense, but it does make one perfectly enlightened. :wink:




Sadhu! Well said!

I see people are worried about the 'total enlightenment' as being an asymptotic ideal, and not something achievable.
Well first to nag about semantics, the only enlightenment one could discuss exists in the context of christian mysticism and neoplatonism, the illumination of the soul. The buddhist word (and I see buddhist concept is to a large extent discussed here) is bodhi, meaning simply awakening, as in, being awake, noticing, understanding.I think this nicely strips that concept of hazy mysticism typical of neoplatonism that so fully permeates western thought.
Secondly, there certainly is no awakening to be found whatsoever. If there were, this would imply a strict dualism between the way of existing of ordinary shmucks like myself and fully awakened buddhas. In fact, ultimatelly, there is no difference at all.

As far as the "asymptotic 'enlightenment'" goes, well this would find a better equivalent in the concept of bhumi, stages of the path, than of bodhi. First bhumi is indeed an experience essentially alike awakening, only not as 'stable' or as 'wast'.

When I say that ultimately a samsaric being like myself is no different than a buddha, I mean to say that there is no something, no Ideal, no Absolute no Peak to find anywhere.
Perhaps youll find this poetical expression as interesting as it is to me, its from 'The Supreme Source' tantra:

From his single. total, self-arising wisdom manifest the five great wisdoms: the self-arising wisdom of anger, the self-arising wisdom of attachment, the self-arising wisdom of ignorance, the self-arising wisdom of jealousy, and the self-arising wisdom of pride.

...

Great being, listen! This pure and total consciousness, which is the essence of the universe, is the authentic condition of all phenomena, a spontneous, natural state that has been present from the beginning. ...Leaving it as it is without correction it means being in the authentic state. From the beginning there is no idea of having to meditate on a view. From the beginning there is no idea of having to meditate on a view. From the beginning there is no idea of having to maintain a commitment. From the beginning there is no idea of having to acquire the capacity for spiritual action. Leaving everything as it is, one is in the authentic state.


So the very idea that awakening as something remote, far away, completely Other, something to be pursued and found is obscuration.

So how is this reconcilable with the dreary facts of existance, a practice, a path etc? Simply in that while in basis same, a delluded shmuck like myself is not recognising it as it appears through every experience, and that in any case since it allways there that essentially nothing changes when he does, and that the search itself is just a spontaneus manifestation. Buddhism is a very rational and calm religion, and does not speak of transcendent unspeakeble Something, but things trivially simple and obvious, base common and unsuprising that we fail to take notice of. Thus neither rationalistic in the western sense of logical Thought percieving Divine, nor in the mystical uncognisable ecstatic transrational Union. For teaching purposes it is explained as two truths, the relative everyday and ultimate sunya, emptyness, the ultimate being based in the relative and vice versa, but things get really interesting when its noted that there is in fact no such dichotomy either.

So, to the proposed lineary achievable awakening, and the asymptotically perpetual and perpetually far awakening, Id propose an infinitesimally close and everpresent awakening.


Edited by aryah (03/11/07 08:01 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: aryah]
    #6658115 - 03/11/07 09:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

good vocab, aryah


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6658440 - 03/11/07 10:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

My immediate impression is, like everything else, that there is no objective, fixed 'thing' called Enlightenment. Rather than point out an individual like Neem Karolie Baba from BE HERE NOW, and compare my own inner and outer life to the stories attributed to his, it makes more sense for me to simply say (with regard to me) that I am presently more Enlightened than I was formerly. This, as well as I can ascertain, is a thoroughly true statement, but the comparison is only made between me and me.

There are so many variables to consider 'intrapsychically' - that each one of us is a universe of experience unto ourselves! There is the simple fact of maturation across our lifetime. Maturation, like the 'aging' of wine, can result in a fine vintage or just an old spoiled souring.

Then there is the social milieu that we find ourselves in. If one experienced the late 1960s, early 1970s, there was a 'spirit of the times' which recognized 'self-actualization,' a psychological renedering of the Indian spiritual Self-Realization. Personal growth towards Enlightenment was part of the collective social consciousness. Lots of people meditated, even buttoned-down suit types. A good example of powerful social consciousness is the work that the British hypnotists James Braid and James Esdaile did in colonial India. As physicians, they found that Indian subjects would manifest hypnotic trances to a much more profound degree, to the point of conducting some 300 limb amputations without pain and with minimal bleeding, through hypnotic suggestion alone - no drugs! Trances in general have been a recognized aspect of Indian mentality for millennia. The same operations were not going to be performed on aristocrats in merry old England without the anaesthesia of the day.

I have come to see when my 'job' as counselor just flows, and when I am trying too hard. Sometimes I find myself addressing an issue that was not the presenting problem, but it turns out to be right on target. My unconscious and my intuition seem to take over my conscious attention to the problem as 'spoken' by the counselee. What [s]he is 'saying' is not really what the problem is because it is too painful to talk about, or they're too embarrassed. When I yield to these unconscious processes, I myself feel 'whole' because I'm unified with more of my Self, and the words I convey seem guided by surgical precision to the problem. I am usually thanked more profusely by the counselee at the end of this kind of session (and this is particularly poignant if we're talking about 12 to 14 year olds!)

Only by offering a concrete example can I discribe how an Enlightened action differs from an unenlightened, newbie, book-learning, student counselor action (as I used to be). Wisdom sometimes manifests through a culling of wider functions of my psyche. As Jung would describe it, it is the Transcendent Function which over-rides my ego during this process. I am not an Enlightened man in India where the role of Guru exists, nor am I a wizened Taoist sage, if that image is what one is looking for. Neither am I comparing myself to a Neem Karolie or a Lao-Tzu, but rather, the comparison is of a pre-Awakened versus a post-Awakened White middle-class American male, in whom the "seeds" of "the Word" [Logos] took root, rather than being choked by the 'weeds of worldliness,' or dried up in a spiritually barren soul [psyche]. In psychological talk, Enlightened action occurs when the Transcendent Function rules. One can "Make straight the way of the LORD" (John 1:23), by the Yogic 'Yamas' and 'Niyamas' (which correspond nicely to the Ten Commandments as well), but one cannot force "the way of the LORD" despite one's most ardent hope for full-time Transcendence (or, Enlightenment).

I've had my share of synchronicities, petitionary prayers granted, mystical ecstasy, visionary states, precognitive dreams and 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head' telepathy, but these experiences have authority only for me, and they do not define me to others as being Enlightened - which is a good thing! Beware anyone who holds him or herself out in such a way as to say 'I am Enlightened, and you are not!'

Peace.

-MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6658557 - 03/11/07 11:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The word is beginning to lose any meaning for me.:crazy2::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6658654 - 03/12/07 12:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

in the bin for me too

back to bumper sticker comments, less stress and strain on the brain


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6658720 - 03/12/07 12:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

For me, enlightenment exists in remaining aware of the "pause" between event and response.

In this spacious region, it is possible to choose amongst courses of action which are either more congruent or less congruent. This seems to relate to impeccability, appreciation and awareness of the present moment, right-action, lovingkindness, etc... as none of these courses of action are likely to arise from "knee-jerk" reactions to events.

Without continued awareness of this "pause," our actions are likely to degenerate into fight-flight-fuck brain stem spasms.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Veritas]
    #6658810 - 03/12/07 01:25 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

taking pause works for me
brain stem spams are great too


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Veritas]
    #6658949 - 03/12/07 02:11 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

LOL! Well said Veritas! Preeminently conscious moments versus unconscious moments - reflective versus reactive.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6659082 - 03/12/07 02:49 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

good precis mark-t.a.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6659391 - 03/12/07 04:27 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I adhere to what I call the "Wile E. Coyote model of enlightenment." Wile E Coyote never actually catches the roadrunner, but he is defined by its pursuit. So it is with enlightenment.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6660008 - 03/12/07 07:33 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I like that.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6660440 - 03/12/07 10:21 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

that little puff of smoke afterwards was so rewarding


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6660549 - 03/12/07 12:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I believe enlightenment to be a state that a person could reach for a brief moment. Possible experiencing reaching this state several times in one's life but it would never be permanent.

What is this state? I really don't know, because I don't believe I actually obatined it yet. I think it requires practice and training. Becoming egoless. Releasing all fear. I also believe that Morihei Ueshiba was one such person who had obtained a state of enlightenment. Unlike Buddha or Jesus his life is pretty well documented. There are also stories of him displaying super human or natural powers. However, I think it only appears this way to those ignorant to all the laws and operations of the universe.

There was no psychadelic drug use. But meditation and deep breathing excercises were taught to be praticed daily.

Here's a english translated quote:

“The Art of Peace is medicine for a sick world. There is evil and disorder in the world because people have forgotten that all things emanate from one source. Return to that source and leave behind all self-centered thoughts, petty desires, and anger. Those who are possessed by nothing possess everything.”

here's some links to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRg70LHrMsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwQ3HZgz32Q


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #6660641 - 03/12/07 02:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

aikido is the only smart way to fight.
the oncoming energy is redirected.
I agree you can be enlightened over and over, but I can't see it as a state, or stasis of any kind, the dance is too complex and natural to be stasis.


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6661218 - 03/12/07 09:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"Inner silence works from the moment you begin to accrue it. What the old sorcerers were after was the final dramatic, end result of reaching that individual threshold of silence. Some very talented practitioners need only a few minutes of silence to reach that coveted goal. Others, less talented, need long periods of silence, perhaps more than one hour of quietude,before they reach the desired result. The desired result is what the old sorcerers called "stopping the world", the moment when everything around us ceases to be what it's always been. This is the moment when sorcerers return to the TRUE nature of man. The old sorcerers always called it "total freedom"."

I'm just going to say that what I am shooting for is impeccability, and if anyone thinks that enlightenment is the same or not, whatever, thats great, it has no bearing on me. If impeccability and enlightenment aren't the same, I have no use for enlightenment, and thus, drop it.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6661244 - 03/12/07 09:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Using power to act with intent to engage obstacles as if it were my last battle on earth. No regret. No talking about or thinking 'what if'. Calculation and execution with a goal. Abandon. Pure energy. It is not a matter of what the goal is, but the intent and power of the warrior who wishes to obtain the goal. Impeccability.

Impeccability, I feel, must be enough for me, for impeccability has heart, and enlightenment, as most define it, does not. It is too cold, and too desolate and full of pride. So as best as words can describe it, I do not believe enlightenment to be a humanly achievable state. Humans are by nature perfect, it is the definition of perfection that is flawed.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6661306 - 03/12/07 10:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

being good is good
being impeccable, can be obsessive or good depending on attitude.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6661331 - 03/12/07 10:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It's being your own absolute reality.


--------------------
Now pick me up night and whirlwind and let me ride with you to peace of mind and nothing to rebel...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: GrimTroll]
    #6661352 - 03/12/07 10:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

in places without absolutes, that might be hard


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