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OfflineTinTree
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Zen Meditation
    #2425681 - 03/13/04 12:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is the use of hallucinogens counter to principles of Zen? It seems that hallucinogens are a great aid for meditation, but I think most Zen Buddhists would feel that they are an intoxicant that only detracts from one's enlightenment. Is the state reached by meditating on hallucinogens only a false no-mind? Anyone here practice Zen and how do you reconcile the use of hallucinogens with it? I am just getting seriously into Zen, and would like to hear some opinions on this.


--------------------
"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2425691 - 03/13/04 12:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I just finished a book called "The empty mirror." A theme in that book is that alot of Zen and Buddhism is tradition that isn't necessarily for a purpose. Like the vegitarian aspect is probably because years ago some monk didn't like meat. So it's possible that they would frown upon hallucinogens, but it wouldn't lead you astray.

Or ritual cat


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InvisibleJenny
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2425771 - 03/13/04 01:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No way. buddhist monks don't need the aide of psychedelics to become enlightened. Through regular meditative practice, anyone can reach a constant trancsending state, which feels amazing in itself. meditation is simply a tool used to "see" past our cosmic joke and be left with whats really there.

Psychedelics are fake, yes. When you are tripping on mushrooms, say, what you have created around you isn't happening at that "time", in that way the constant use of these kind of drugs is only causing yourself to move backwards from the state of awareness and enlightenment some wish to achieve in this lifetime. I'm not saying that don't provide great aids in maybe making some key life decisions or helping you out in one way or another, but as for you actually viewing outside our matrix WHILE on pscyedelics, i don't think so.

I don't use any sort of drug/alcohol now adays because for me its a been there done that thing, and i focus solely right now on improving my Self. I've been fortunate enough to stumble, quite coincidentally on a spiritual teacher, and someone who is a friend of the dalai lama and the coolest person i've ever met, to be my guide and teach me meditative techniques and help me on the path to awareness.

Quieting the mind is the hardest thing you can do. The mind and your earthly emotions are which cause us to become blind to how things really are, connected, vibrating..etc.

I have recently started doing some specific meditative excersizes given to me by my teacher, and already it has been very rewarding.

Good luck with yourself and your journeys, sorry about the ramble, i hope it made sense. I'm usually someone of few words, not very good with explaing myself. :smile:


--------------------

Mindfulness is the aware, balanced acceptance of the present experience.
It isn't more complicated than that.
It is opening to or recieving the present moment, pleasant or unpleasant, just as it is,
without either clinging to it or rejecting it.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2425846 - 03/13/04 01:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

reminds me of a joke...

a buddhist goes up to a hot dog vendor and says "make me one with everything"

ta-dump-bump


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We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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Offlinetatubom1
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2425882 - 03/13/04 01:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

this brings up a thaute i got while meditating:
what are the effects of shrooms on ki energy?
do they drain it make it harder to regenerate ki or what?


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The un-seen is the un-caught;the un-caught is the smart one;the smart one is the un-seen


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OfflineTinTree
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: Jenny]
    #2425888 - 03/13/04 01:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you, Jenny, that gave me a lot to think about. You're very lucky to have found such a teacher... thanks for spreading the wisdom. :smile:
So, while I enjoy meditating on psychedelics, I guess I should not consider it progressing towards enlightenment in any way.
The practice of Zen is very rewarding for me, but I also find certain aspects of primitive cultures very appealing and I am still working out my personal beliefs.
I'll check out that book if I get a chance, Special Ed.  Thanks for the input.


--------------------
"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley


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Offlinefung_us_among_us
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2426294 - 03/13/04 05:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

what would you guys say is the best advice for calming your mind during meditation? i've been doing it off and on for a couple years now, but i have trouble keeping thoughts out of my mind. i can focus on my breath fine, i just see things in my head while doing so, if that makes sense.

i used to do a lot of visualization techniques as well. i think the point was to strengthen your third eye or something. this could be counter-productive to meditation now that i think about it.


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Offlinebutterflydawn
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2426298 - 03/13/04 05:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i used to meditate...till i discover plants :smile:

now meditation is boring for me,while i can contact with entities...and the other things i can do while i'm on plants


--------------------
lucidal expansion


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: butterflydawn]
    #2426308 - 03/13/04 06:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Meditation + :mushroom2: = :thumbup:

be here now


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2426381 - 03/13/04 07:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TinTree said:
Is the use of hallucinogens counter to principles of Zen?  It seems that hallucinogens are a great aid for meditation, but I think most Zen Buddhists would feel that they are an intoxicant that only detracts from one's enlightenment.  Is the state reached by meditating on hallucinogens only a false no-mind?  Anyone here practice Zen and how do you reconcile the use of hallucinogens with it?  I am just getting seriously into Zen, and would like to hear some opinions on this.




Haha, reminds me of when Ram Dass took all that acid up to that guru, and asked him what it was. The guru took like three times the dose someone starting out on acid should have, and nothing happened.  :grin:

All there is, is what there is. Its about Experience. A hallucinogen is going to offer a very unique and profound Experience. I'm not too familiar with Zen, less than I wish to be, but isn't it about the here and now experience? Well, in the specific case of mushrooms, it temporary transcends the boundaries we have in our head that keep us from being in the here and now.

The thing about mushrooms is that they aren't exactly a path, just a glimpse of what is ahead on the path that you are on. They are a window, not a door. Myself, I always like to sort of know in what general direction I am going, because it aids me in going further down my path.... mushrooms, and of course, marijuana have really helped me in that respect, from the way my mind works to even my bass guitar playing.  :grin:
Peace.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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OfflineTinTree
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2427965 - 03/13/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I've have done some reading and arrived at this (paraphrased from "The Three Pillars of Zen" and my own conjecture). While psychedelics may be able to provide brief moments of self-realization and opening of the mind's eye, without the powers of concentration from zazen meditation, this self-realization (kensho) will fade to merely a pleasant memory. Concentration (joriki) can expand the depth and clarity of this vision, and allow one to act with the total force of being on what your vision has revealed to you.


--------------------
"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2428050 - 03/13/04 06:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Zen is very interesting... I studied it a bit before...
anyway, I think when you meditate you should meditate unintoxicated, and especially since the meaning of meditation is to enjoy the harmony of nothingness and let it purify... if you are doing it with hallucinogens you're going against the primary reason of meditation by trying to experience something. To get to the depths of meditation one has to go into meditation with the intent to enjoy purity of nothingness and simplicity. Its kind of like you get rewarded by you're true will. Though when you're an everyday meditator and skilled at it I dont see how it would have any negative effects to try it out sometimes. Its really good to meditate before you take hallucinogens.
One day when and if i'm a skilled meditator I will meditate, eat mushrooms and meditate during the whole trip and first open my eyes when I have landed.


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Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: Jenny]
    #2428067 - 03/13/04 06:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I dont think hallucinogens are FAKE in a sense, they are a key that opens the door to universal spiritual truth, but when you practice meditation regularly the door or the key hole isnt even there, what you are left with is the truth period.


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InvisibleTheDude
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2428853 - 03/13/04 10:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Im about half way through a book called Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics. Lots of good material in there, I recommend you give it a read if you want an answer to your question. It seems to me like hallucinogens can be used to get one on the path, but in no way offer a substitution to daily meditation and continual spiritual work at bettering one's self. They're just a tool.


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OfflineAsco
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2429703 - 03/14/04 12:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

An interesting point Huxley gives in The Doors Of Perception is that psychoactive substances are more like a vision. When you ingest them you see differently, you can get into very deep states of mind but because it is only a vision, it fades away when the substance dosen'T affect your body.

For having practiced Buddhism for a pretty long time, I can say that meditation is more a way of attaining what the vision wants to teach. We could call it in a way the non induced vision :P

What I want to mean is that the state of constant awareness that you develop after practicing meditation regularly can be similar in essence to psychedelic trips. What varies is the form that might not be the same.


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Offlinepeleg
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: Asco]
    #2429804 - 03/14/04 12:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

for me it all benifits each other, like a tool box and ya have diffrent tools ya know. ya got your meditation, yoga, hallucitions,fasting and im sure so many other tools that make up the tool box.


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....


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InvisibleJenny
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: fung_us_among_us]
    #2429914 - 03/14/04 01:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

as there are THOUSANDS of meditation techniques, i understand your frustration..there are certain gentle yoga stretches and nasel breathing excersizes to do prior to actually meditation that take you 30-40% deeper into the right state towards transcending that i do prior to meditation. I don't know if you use breathing excersizes (more tibetan based) or i use mantras which is diff. Message me or something and i'll give ya some things to do.

also Tintree- there of course are hundreds of books to read up on, I'd like to recommend a short and sweet one that doesn't get to be too much to read, its called

Stillness Speaks by Eckhart Tolle

:laugh:


--------------------

Mindfulness is the aware, balanced acceptance of the present experience.
It isn't more complicated than that.
It is opening to or recieving the present moment, pleasant or unpleasant, just as it is,
without either clinging to it or rejecting it.


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OfflineTinTree
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: Jenny]
    #2431589 - 03/14/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

^^ Asco: I agree completely.
Jenny: I have borrowed a number of books from the library, the best of which for practice has been "The Three Pillars of Zen". I will see if I can find "Stillness Speaks".
In zazen, I count my breaths on exhaling from one to ten and then start again. I like to focus my attention on my hara (just below navel) and breathe from there naturally. I sit in half-lotus when possible (slightly painful, but growing less so). This is my favorite method to meditate.


--------------------
"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2434574 - 03/15/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

www.tricycle.com
their magazine had an entire issue focused on psychedelics a few years ago; well worth checking out
(a magickal friend gave me a copy a few years ago - thanks dennis& linda!)
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zen Meditation [Re: TinTree]
    #2434754 - 03/15/04 01:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is an interesting one... I spent a lot of time hanging out with the Zen monks when I lived in the states. My Zen answer would be to smile and walk away...

> Is the state reached by meditating on hallucinogens only a false no-mind?

Who is to say? What is the difference between a false no-mind and a true no-mind?

> I am just getting seriously into Zen, and would like to hear some opinions on this.

My opinion is pretty simply. Drug use is like a shortcut. Sometimes, a short cut can get you where you want to go faster... but a shortcut is often complex and ends up taking more time than the direct route.

Zen is a process, not a state. A drug can take you to a certain state for a while, but it cannot maintain the process of living in that state.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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