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OfflineElectricJW
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Meditation
    #5417546 - 03/19/06 01:10 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What are the best ways to meditate? What do you do while meditating? What do you accomplish w/ meditation?

I have never meditated before, but I really would like to learn how. So, give me some pointers.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5417799 - 03/19/06 02:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ElectricJW said:
I have never meditated before, but I really would like to learn how.  So, give me some pointers.




One of the best pointers I could give on how to meditate is to type the term "meditation" into the search form for this forum, and to read and review the knowledge that will spring forth as a result. :wink:

Meditation "A How To Guide"

Meditation Book Recommendations

I recommend this one because it has a link contained within it that has a list of eleven free meditation books that you can read online. :wink:

Dig around the search function for some more information, read what you can find, and return when you have a better idea of some techniques and some increased understanding. Then we can really discuss meditation together. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5418042 - 03/19/06 09:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

focus


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Meditation [Re: Gomp]
    #5418612 - 03/19/06 02:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Fireworks, Nice post :thumbup:!  I didnt even think about searching it through here. 

What exactly are you doing when meditating?  I just really know nothing on this subject, sorry i'm such a newb. :smile:


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5418630 - 03/19/06 02:13 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

""What exactly are you doing when meditating?""


Good question..

..., you could be doing it right now! :laugh:


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: Gomp]
    #5418654 - 03/19/06 02:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

1. Sit comfortably
2. Breathe 
3. Notice anything, open around it and feel the breath
4. REPEAT steps 2 and 3 AD INFINITUM


That is the basic format for meditation.  And when I say notice anything, I mean anything.  Such thoughts as "I am breathing, this is stupid, my toe hurts" etc, are just thoughts. 

Then after a while of practicing this, you will start to notice that those once verbal thoughts are no longer verbal, but contractions of attention on a specific part of your body causing you to "think" you need to slightly adjust yourself.  You do not.  If you remain still, those patterns of contraction will pass, and things will resolve themselves.

Once you can release attention from bodily awareness, you will start feeling like there is no you at all.  However this is also a thought.  Things will start making you feel "spiritual" and you will probably think that you have attained some sort of spiritual awakening.  No, you are just thinking again.  The open state that allowed the wisdom to arise, has been closed off by your attachments to attainment. 

After (much) more practice, you will start to realize that there is nothing to attain, because you already have it.  Here you are, sitting, breathing, tasting, touching, hearing, seeing, feeling and thinking.  But the sense of a knower dissolves, and becomes only what is known.   

This is where things get interesting.  No reflection can stain a mirror, but the mirror can get dusty.  Meditate, and it will be cleaned.  After more time, you will enter into a state called (in zen) "kensho" which is a glimpse of your true nature.  However because grasping and attachment still thrive, you cannot maintain this state for very long.  The psychedelic experience has been likened to the state of kensho.  A temporary enlightenment so to speak. 

As more time passes, you realize there is no mirror.  Only the reflection of one.  This is called "shattering the mirror".  This is where meditation practice really begins.  After this, no words can describe what to do.  Your knowledge of practice becomes your teacher.   

I hope this gives you some insights on what meditation is.  Now remember, there are many forms of meditation, and no one method is better than another.  Some are more direct/sterile, some are more colorful/frilly.  The dualistic expression of these shows how one might interpret the paths differently.  For me, the direct path is the only way.  Others might see it as sterile and lifeless.  While to me the colorful spiritual experiences that many consider the only way, seem to loaded with frills and distractions, full of others interpretations.  Just remember that the truth is in you .  Do not submit to another's reality in order to make things work. You will only be looking at the world through colored glasses.   

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5418757 - 03/19/06 03:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

^^ GREAT read! :wink::thumbup:


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5418982 - 03/19/06 04:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you. :japsmile:


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Invisibleasd11
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Re: Meditation [Re: dorkus]
    #5419070 - 03/19/06 05:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I would recommend you try the 4 fold-breath when trying to meditate. While counting inside your head, breathe to this tempo: In 2 3 4 out 2 3 4 in 2 3 4 out 2 3 4 ....

Counting inside your head keeps you focused, and maintaining that breath rythim gets you into a state of deep meditation in about 10-15min, it's a real natural high.


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OfflinePeyote_Princess
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Re: Meditation [Re: asd11]
    #5419190 - 03/19/06 05:49 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I found it helps me as I breathe during meditation to think about the breaths closely; and think to myself aout breathing out the bad stuff, the anxiety and generally all the negative energy that I may have experienced since my last meditation.  And as I breathe in, think about breathing in positive energy to take its place, to focus on the beaty of nature (this is a big things for me right now, spring solstice is coming  in a couple of days and I like to see all the spring flowers pushing their way through!)

The links are good too... I'd advice looking at various suggestions and techniques, and discover the one that you feel most comfortable with, and suits you the best - I don't think that it is one of those one size fits all type things.

But there's no need for big ceremony; just setling down to some chilled out music and focusing on a piece of artwork, or just one poem that you like or a candle flame and focusing on that, and deep breathing can be the easiest form of meditation - and still does lots of good for the mind and spirit.

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


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"Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5419307 - 03/19/06 06:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

On the Psychology of Meditation by Claudio Naranjo & Robert E. Ornstein
Good chapter on the two basic forms of meditation - concentrative and absorptive. Most people here tend to cite absorptive techniques (like Zen) whereas Yogic, Sufi or Christian [Hesychastic] techniques tend towards the concentrative forms. Comfort with techniques is highly dependent on our personality types.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5419511 - 03/19/06 07:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
On the Psychology of Meditation by Claudio Naranjo & Robert E. Ornstein
Good chapter on the two basic forms of meditation - concentrative and absorptive. Most people here tend to cite absorptive techniques (like Zen) whereas Yogic, Sufi or Christian [Hesychastic] techniques tend towards the concentrative forms. Comfort with techniques is highly dependent on our personality types.




Actually, Zen relies on none of these techniques.  Absorptive meditation (Skt. Vipashyana; Jap. Shi) and concentrative (Skt. shamata; Jap. Kan) are the root of Buddhist meditation.  The trouble there is that each of these implies progress, therefore approaching enlightenment from the viewpoint of the student.  In Zen, there is no meditation.  There is simply sitting, walking, eating and shitting.  Do you need a special technique to know how to walk?  No, because it is something you just know how to do.  You dont think "right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot..."  You simply walk.  When sitting, that is all there is.  Just sitting.  All devices you are given, are simply a means to realize that you already know how to sit.  Concentration is helpful at first, but quickly becomes a crutch because it contracts your attention around that which is the object of concentration.  Zen is not meditation.  Zen is simply waking up to your life as it is, right now
 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5419701 - 03/19/06 08:09 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Would you recommend counting (1-10) and then shifting over to effortless awareness? Shifting between the two depending on state of mind?


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: dorkus]
    #5419895 - 03/19/06 08:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
Would you recommend counting (1-10) and then shifting over to effortless awareness? Shifting between the two depending on state of mind?




Just sit there.  Thats all you need to do. 

Everything that comes up, notice it, and open back to the sensations of the breath and 6 bodily senses (the sixth being mind), and just sit there.  LOTS of stuff comes up.  Emotions, verbal thoughts, pictures, questions, ideas, plans, sensations, colors, forms, anything that you catch yourself isolating.  Its not about the seen,  its about the seeing. 

Regarding counting, it can help, but all it does is give self image something to cling to.  Once you recognize open awareness, particular mantras can be recited, and koans can be practiced to further release grasping, but those too are simply things to give you something to do.  All you have to do is sit there.  When it doesnt bother you, it wont bother you.     

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


Edited by Quoiyaien (03/19/06 09:06 PM)


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OfflinePeyote_Princess
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5419938 - 03/19/06 09:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Don't overthink meditation.... worrying about this technique, that method...

just learn to be...

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: Peyote_Princess]
    #5419976 - 03/19/06 09:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote_Princess said:


just learn to be...





That about sums it up. :laugh:

We humans can make that quite difficult sometimes, cant we? :tongue:

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


Edited by Quoiyaien (03/20/06 09:58 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5420329 - 03/19/06 10:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Differences between Zen meditation and Yoga meditation were explored decades ago [K.T. Behanan] and there are certain behavioral differences such as startle response which can be documented. The nature of the 'trances' seemed to differ, with the concentrative Yoga trance making one more oblivious to external startle stimulus than the Zen meditation. The whole 'Point' is to 'contract your attention around a point.' It is not a "crutch," it is called 'Ekagrata' - one-pointedness, and it constitutes the Yoga stage of 'concentration' which becomes 'meditation' when it becomes effortless.

Of course Zen IS meditation, and the results of meditation, derived from Ch'an, taught by Bodhidharma, etc. No need to be possessive about your take on it - it IS another take on Zen. There must be as many takes on Zen as there have been practitioners - or non-practitioners  :wink:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5420600 - 03/20/06 12:04 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

>>>>What do you accomplish w/ meditation?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm very enthusiastic about meditation. I'm not trying to be long winded, I just felt this is what's necessary to properly answer your question in the way I know how.

You change your mind, to be very general about it. To be specific, what do you want to accomplish? Would you like to find what enlightenment is? Do you want to know what it feels like to be Jesus? Uptight and need to relax? Would you like to be able to pick up hot chicks? Do you get angry often, and want to find a way to rise above that? Need help focusing on school? Tired of being bored? Use your imagination and see what you can come up with. Do you have a dream in your head of who you would like to be, but aren't?

As for how to meditate, I'm learning that there are many different ways/types of meditation, I can only comment on what I've done.

Hands down easiest meditation: This requires no thought on your part whatsoever, cept for a little physical control. I read in a book a couple of lines which basically stated that by holding your breath for an XX count and slowly letting out for an XX count, I could create ecstasy. A pretty bold claim I thought. I tried, didn't feel much... fullness in the lungs, blood pressure in my head slightly elevated. HAHA, so much for ecstasy, but then I thought, perhaps I'm not doing it right, plus I figured as a smoker the extra oxygen might be a good thing. So I kept at it. 2-3 times a day, generally while I was driving around in my car, I would hold my breath :grin: trying different lengths of time, different amounts of air, in/out through the nose or mouth... but still not trying from a mental standpoint to gain anything. I wanted that FREE ecstasy.

Well, I found it, and here's what I've learned: It's an extended sigh. Why do people sigh? To relieve mental pressure. If you try, you can think while sighing, but the unconscious reaction during a sigh is to just let it all go, and while you are sighing there's not a though in your head. Try it now if you like.

But there's more: As the weeks progressed, I began to think there was a slight hint of ecstasy. I soon became a believer, and was holding my breath as often as possible. At this point, 8 months later, I can hold my breath and my entire body feels good, pure NATURAL ecstasy. It was about 6 months ago when I first realized there was something more to it than I could explain, I began to get curious about a lot of things, shrooms being one of them, that's how I ended up here :cool:

This is what led into chakra meditation for me. Though holding my breath makes my whole body feel good, I began to notice that some places felt better than others. My chest would especially feel good, and then there was my throat. I noticed that If I breathed the last bit of breath in through my nose, my throat felt fantastic, in the same way it does when you're in a great mood, you're outside, the weather is good, and you just feel like taking in a big breath of sweet air. Oddly enough, this didn't occur all the time. It was most pronounced during the week after shrooming.

My current technique: I slowly (at whatever pace I feel like) breath in through my mouth, and fill my belly. Once my belly is about full, I breath in through the nose and fill up my chest. Then I hold it (for however long I feel like) and slowly let it out through my nose (at whatever pace I like). I don't take in any more air than I'm comfortable with. I've found that the "emotion" that I build up can be directed by my mind as I let the air out. I can push that energy down through my legs and make my feet tingle. I can push it anywhere on my body and get interesting effects. I've also found that this simple breathing exercise calms me down, elevates my mood, and make me think deeper.

To tie this in with chakras, the points that felt especially good are chakras. Once I discovered this all kinds of things started to click. Chakras are energy points in the body, the major ones run down a line through the center of your body. Opening these chakras will produce many startling changes in your life. If everyone has them, why aren't they just naturally open? Life is HARD. At a young age, most people begin to close their chakras to some degree as a self defence mechanism. People do a variety of drugs to close their chakras. Open chakras force you to confront issues, open chakras will make you a sensitive person. Not sensitive in a weak way, but in a GOOD way. Still, a lot of people don't want to have anything to do with it, sensitive=weak. Much better, in their minds, to continue trudging through life bashing anything that gets in the way. Of course this isn't the case with everyone, in fact, we all have chakras open to a certain degree. Some people are naturals, and would receive less benefit than others from meditation, and they may be totally unaware of this as a system. They'll say they love, they feel confident, enterprising, they feel sexual, etc. And in the natural world that's the way it works. The degree to which each chakra is open is a big determinant of an individuals personality.

Anyway, I realized that breathing alone probably wouldn't get them all open, and also read that there's an order in which they should be opened. For instance, opening the higher chakras (beyond the first 7) before the lower ones could result in you telling the cops the angels told you to kill the neighbors cats.

So I began chakra meditation which is basically focusing on the physical location of an individual chakra. Unlike the simple breathing exercise, you must focus. It's hard to describe, but at my most effective I'm moving energy/emotion in opposing directions simultaneously. For instance, the root chakra is located between the legs in the area between the sex organ and the anus :smile: I visualize/feel a root growing down from there (movement down) and at the same time I feel nutrients/energy (moving up) through the root into the body. This upward energy eventually fills my whole body til every nerve ending I have feels good... but not as good as the chakra itself.

When done properly, it's an INCREDIBLE feeling. Drugs are a cheap dime store imitation.

What's interesting/odd is that specific chakras relate to specific areas of life. Reading about it is one thing, experiencing, to KNOW for yourself is another. The first chakra is called the root because it makes one feel grounded. That's exactly what it does. I quit worrying about time, quit worrying about other people's opinions, I found patience, don't feel loneliness, or feel like the world is a swirling mass of chaos (or at least I'm no longer a part of that). All the chakras have a specific realm, sexuality, success and confidence, the ability to give and receive love, putting aside judgment, being able to boldly speak the truth when necessary (as opposed to 5 minutes later when you realize what you SHOULD have said), concentration and mental acuity, and finally ego-loss.

I'm nowhere near that level, but I'm a happy guy. A year ago I was quick to anger, judgmental, and looked at life as an atheist. I saw life as a long haul, a "bitch" with a few hours here, a few hours there to actually relax, do some drugs and forget about how much life sucked. I looked at true happiness as something I couldn't attain, something that when tried for might make me optimistic for a few days, a week, whatever, only to come crashing down at some point. I was placing my hopes in the material world, and because I wasn't happy inside those hopes were unattainable. Even if I had succeeded on some noteworthy level, it would have ended up being a case of the grass being greener on the other side.

That's what meditation is for me, but there's much yet to discover. As I said, I've done the breathing thing since last fall, I've been doing chakra meditation for about a month now. Results are not way over the horizon.

Also, I mentioned that drugs are a cheap imitation. I don't say this in a judgmental way. Everything has it's reason and purpose. I still smoke pot, but right now I'm straight and feel no need, I would normally be quite stoned this time of night. I've also noticed that it's easier to meditate "clean" as opposed to having smoked 3 hogs the night before. I quit drinking a year ago, but I imagine meditation would be near impossible for me as a regular drinker.

I think at their best, drugs have things they can teach us. For instance, if you'd like to try meditation but aren't able to feel your root (and you happen to smoke weed), get high. While you're high, notice where in your body you feel the best. I tried this on a friend of mine and asked him. He said "umm... my dick?" So I said "your dick, or somewhere close to it?" He responded "a little behind it". Bingo, that's the root.

One other thing: If you go charging into chakra meditation, be aware that it's possible to open them too much. The use of drugs, especially shrooms, loosen them up. I hurt myself a few weeks ago by meditating the day after shrooming. You want them open, but not wide open. I can't really describe what happened, but it's almost like I leaked out a LOT of energy. It left me weak and shaking, I was unable to meditate properly until a few days ago, and I had to not think about my head, it caused a stinging sensation and made me dizzy. This experience made me realize I could use drugs to facilitate opening chakras, but I'd much rather do it "on my own". I almost feel like it would result in bad karma. To each their own though.

I'll quit typing :smile: I could say a bunch more, but I've made my point.

Edit: Just wanted to comment on psychedelics specifically. At THIS POINT in time, I feel a need to make progress on my own, if drugs have something further to teach me I'll know when the time comes. At the same time, though drugs have taught me things, I have this feeling that enlightnment is a capability that's built into us, it's something that can be done without drugs. But it's all kind of confusing to me right now because where I stand was determined by the path I took. Something to ponder.

Rahz


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


Edited by Rahz (03/20/06 12:29 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meditation [Re: Rahz]
    #5421276 - 03/20/06 06:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

there are different kinds of temperments, or mentalities, just as there are differnt feet.

the various meditations are like differently shaped shoehorns to get differently shaped minds into good walking shoes.

Mind is very plastic or fluid, and is conditioned by repetition, hence the practice of meditation forms.

On a nice sandy beach there may be no need for shoes of any kind.


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5421365 - 03/20/06 08:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Here is what happened last night.

I was laying in the bed, concentrating on my breathing.  After like a min I had no thoughts, then I heard a ringing in my ear.  ( Somewhere someone said to concentrate on the highest pitch noise)  So I concentrated on the highest pitch noise, and when I did this I an extreamely intense body high set in, and the noise was real loud.  Then I lost focus, and it stopped. 

Is this normal? And what happens (or what should I expect) after I breakthrough?

>>>>Rahz.... :thumbup: Post!  Can you post more on the charka locations and all that.  Or pm?  That is real interesting to me.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


Edited by ElectricJW (03/20/06 08:32 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5421379 - 03/20/06 08:54 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The sitting meditation technique that I use was learned from Zen monks (Soto flavor). I sit, facing a blank wall, and breath. If a thought enters my mind, I simply let it go and continue to breath. I don't try to analyze the thought, and I don't scold myself for having thoughts. Instead, I let go of the thought and go back to breathing. As my mind calms, all kinds of crazy things start to happen... I will hear noises and ringing sounds... the walls will start to breath, the textures will start to move... the room will get brighter and darker... etc... All of this stuff is ignored. If I notice it, I let go of it, and continue to breath.

> And what happens (or what should I expect) after I breakthrough?

Nothing... go back to breathing.


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Re: Meditation [Re: Seuss]
    #5421451 - 03/20/06 09:44 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Here's a chakra diagram I find though very simplistic, is a good opening guide to the positions...

http://www.lartin-drake.com/chakras.html

Have a surf around the net for more on opening up different elements of yourself more

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


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Re: Meditation [Re: Peyote_Princess]
    #5421553 - 03/20/06 10:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

there have been a few shroomery references in the last year or so

use the search button at the top

many of the participants in these threads are still around here,

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4783945/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4371004/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1


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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5421850 - 03/20/06 12:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I learned meditation by myself. Later I did countercheck my knowledge with the original Buddhistic stuff and came to the conclusion, that is exactly, how I did it:

First step: samatha (that's what most here say, what's about breathing, clearing/calming/quieting ones mind)
->
Second step: vipassana (is about focusing attention in the most clearest way. With this, even astral travels, oobes and rebirthing techniques will be possible)

Just try to understand the principles of samatha and vipassana and then do it your way :laugh: (Of course you can even use the detailed instructions, but doing something from your own self will accumulate the effects)

And all doors will be open :wink:


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......................................................
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Re: Meditation [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5421901 - 03/20/06 12:22 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Rahz, can you tell me more about this chakra meditation? And the order, for opening the chakras?


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"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5421952 - 03/20/06 12:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5422229 - 03/20/06 02:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

chakkras don't exactly open and close as neatly as acupuncture points.
and the result is not the same as following a specific recipe and getting the same dish from different kitchens.

you may find a bunch of kundalini people that say all's you gotta do is start at the bottomand run tothe top.

and you might find some hinayan people that send you in from the nose and down and back up,

much variance.

much fake expertise too.


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Re: Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5422801 - 03/20/06 09:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Has anyone experienced this:

Once I finally quieted my thoughts, I heard a loud noise. I concentrated on this noise, and it became real loud, then i got a intense body high. The noise kept increasing, until I finally lost focus......wtf just happened? Was I about to have an OBE? or astral project?

It felt like something big was about to happen. I wasn't prepared for this, so I kinda stopped. What happens when I break through?


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“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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Re: Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5423126 - 03/20/06 10:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Differences between Zen meditation and Yoga meditation were explored decades ago [K.T. Behanan] and there are certain behavioral differences such as startle response which can be documented. The nature of the 'trances' seemed to differ, with the concentrative Yoga trance making one more oblivious to external startle stimulus than the Zen meditation. The whole 'Point' is to 'contract your attention around a point.' It is not a "crutch," it is called 'Ekagrata' - one-pointedness, and it constitutes the Yoga stage of 'concentration' which becomes 'meditation' when it becomes effortless.

Of course Zen IS meditation, and the results of meditation, derived from Ch'an, taught by Bodhidharma, etc. No need to be possessive about your take on it - it IS another take on Zen. There must be as many takes on Zen as there have been practitioners - or non-practitioners  :wink:




I dissagree with your saying that Zen IS meditation, but that is what the internet is all about  :wink:  Zen is Zen.  That is it.  Meditation plays a part in it (Zazen), but it is not Zen.  Regarding concentration as a crutch, I should have been more specific.  I am referring to it in the practice of Shikan-taza or "Just sitting," which is the core practice of the Soto Zen lineage.  I am quite familiar with many forms of meditation, and understand the value of concentration where the practice calls for it.  In the lineage I study and practice, concentration is seen as something for self image to cling to, a closing off of the mind. But all roads lead to Rome :laugh: 

I am curious about this comparison between Yoga and Zen meditation.  What source are you referring to?  I would like to read it. 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


Edited by Quoiyaien (03/21/06 01:01 AM)


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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5423167 - 03/20/06 10:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ElectricJW said:
Has anyone experienced this:

Once I finally quieted my thoughts, I heard a loud noise.  I concentrated on this noise, and it became real loud, then i got a intense body high.  The noise kept increasing, until I finally lost focus......wtf just happened?  Was I about to have an OBE?  or astral project? 

It felt like something big was about to happen.  I wasn't prepared for this, so I kinda stopped.  What happens when I break through?




I would just let what ever is to happen, happen.  Try not to analyze things too much.  It sounds to me like you were falling into a trance.  Cool    :cool: 

Keep at it, and report your experiences. :laugh:

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5425342 - 03/21/06 03:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

>>>>can you tell me more about this chakra meditation? And the order, for opening the chakras?

The framework I use starts at the bottom and moves up, but as said, there's other methods. A good place to look is answers.com they have some info, plus clickable related terms which can get you a view into traditional forms. New Age chakra meditation abounds on the net, a google will pull up a ton of this stuff. Also, do a google image search for chakra. Check them out and you'll begin to see there's a lot of different opinions on the form and positions of chakras. I've seen a picture that's got 15+ chakras located above the head extending several meters up. I've seen a picture that shows the root extending front to back. I don't know what they're experiencing, but for me the root points downward. But hopefully if someone drew this stuff they're experiencing it as well...

I do know the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th extend all the way through the body, as well as others which I haven't meditated on. The front and back of these chakras are said to be the ying and yang, or female and male aspects. Going back to the breathing excersise, one guy wrote that as you breath in, imagine a soft cool energy (feminine)running down the front of the body to the sacral (2nd) chakra (where chi is created). When you exhale, send the energy up your spine through the top of the head (stimulating the male aspects).

For me, I don't see all the chakras being charged by the root. For instance, when I'm laying down meditatig on the 2nd chakra I feel the energy rising upward, not up from the root, but up from the bed/couch/ground I'm lying on on. For the 3rd, the energy is comming directly into the chakras from the front and the back. They're all a little different, but that's just the way I do it. I would encourage you to _read as much as you can_, try different methods and pay attention whenever you read a warning or danger associated with a particular type of meditation.

I have found some new age stuff helpful, but it's importaint for me to understand that the concepts they use are simply constructs to facilitate the flow of energy. If imagining I'm a tree helps, I'll do it... but as I've learned how things flow I'm begining to drop the construct and just let the energy move. I have found the use of color association curiously helpful. As I'm meditating on the root for instance, I try to envision my body and the energy as red. At first this seemed damn near impossible, the red would shift into crimson, purple, rust, orange etc. Oddly, the closer the color is to a true, vibrant red, the more the chakra opens. After a lot of practice, seeing red has become much easier. Right now, I feel like the color association is also a construct, but because it works so damn good, I have no plans to drop it.

Let me know if you have more questions, but keep in mind I'm a newb.

Rahz


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rahz

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Re: Meditation [Re: Rahz]
    #5426137 - 03/21/06 06:44 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I almost got it to work again, but lost focus....I'll try it again sometime soon, and see what happens.

Rahz....Nice post. I actually saw a book @ the bookstore, that was about chakra healing or something like that. I was thinking about picking it up, but I'll wait for now. Do you have any books that you could recommend?


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5426502 - 03/21/06 07:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

deep states of meditation produce theta waves, and this has been shown before in studies with meditating Zen monks who produce theta waves that are very refined and certainly far beyond the capacity of a normal human on an EEG. in working with chakras or other energy systems of the body and consciously moving the Chi or Prana, it is desireable to be in a deep theta state to block out input from thoughts and other garbage which exists in the mind in normal consciousness. to reach a theta state one can induce a trance which is quite easy once one becomes adept at it. what we are doing by going into trance is switching off the active left side of the brain to gain acess to the subconscious facilities in the right brain, like rewiring the electricity in a building. we use the trance state to program the mind to make what we want to manifest in our reality. must start off slow your first couple of times, and then work your way from light trance to deep states of trance.

to get into a trance state takes practice so remember each of us is an individual some of us may find this easier than others. the important thing is persistance and keep practicing.here is the technique for falling into a trance:

1. sit comfortably. do not lie down your first couple of times
because you might fall asleep. keep your spine straight, but try to relax your muscles.
2. breath in for a count of at least six or up to nine counts, depending on your lung capacity. hold for the same count, then release for the same count, and start over. do this breathing until you are completely relaxed, ideally you should not be able to feel your body much anymore. you can achieve this slowly by relaxing each part of your body in a sequence starting with the feet working your way up.
3. once you are relaxed you must now try to achieve a falling effect so what you must do is imagine (not visualize, imagine) you are climbing down a ladder. really try to feel yourself moving down a ladder. breath in and hold on to the ladder, breath out and feel yourself take a step or two down and repeat this as many times as you feel comfortable with. after a while you let go of the ladder and freefall backards. this falling effect or feeling is essential to entering an alpha state and mental calmness and physical relaxation added allows one to go deeper into trance into a theta state.
4. keep the falling effect up for as long as it takes for you to enter trance and this will vary for different people. once you get a heavy feeling feeling stop the falling effect.

a trance feels like: everything is quieter and you feel like the space around you has expanded, like you are in a much bigger place.kind of like when you put a cardboard box over your head. a slight rocking or sensation of movement will occur along with a humming feeling in your body. any sharp noises while in trance are painful so make sure you will not be disturbed or brought out of trance abrubtly beause this can be harmful. once in trance you can work with your chakras, the easiest way is to visualize them one by one and then see them getting brighter with each time you breath out. a quick runthrough of the chakras can be seen here : http://www.atimetoheal-om.net/philosophy-chakras.htm

to get out of a trance slowly feel yourself coming back to your body, like start with your fingers or toes, then work your way up to major limbs and once you feel yourself back in your body you can open your eyes.

deeper states of trance take practice but once you become adept at it you wont even need to practice the exercises for long because you will know how to fall into trance at will in a matter of seconds. i have been working with trance states for a few months and it gets easier the more often i practice, but i sometimes have periods where i take a long break and then it becomes more difficult to go back into trance again. once in trance you can do many other things such as astral projection, remote viewing, shamanic work such as journeying, soul retreival, healing, past life regression, or meeting spirit guides and teachers. the trance is used by every shaman around the world or some form of altered state to do their work. the astral realm is the world beyond our physical reality, the background that makes up what becomes manifest. when we enact change in the astral realm it manifests in some way in the physical.
i might also add. all the above work can be done and quite easily in the Lucid dream state. i find astral travel is much easier in a lucid dream, and it is easy to seperate from your physical body.


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Re: Meditation [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5428846 - 03/22/06 09:18 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Woah!

I have had a sudden sence of falling backward during deep meditations, on more than one occasion . It freaked me out and caused me to stop the meditation.

I must explore this farther :strokebeard:


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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5428992 - 03/22/06 10:27 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

during meditative absorption frames of sensation will stack or layer as with entheogen.

the initial application of concentration becomes automatic because it too becomes stacked into a feedback kind of mental sequence.

i often remember after just drifting off a bit, that a slight loss of balance in the seated pose would begin cascading into a huge collapse leaving me gasping - which is something like a salvia gravity effect, mixed with emerging from a deja vu.

exactly
Woah!


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Re: Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5429074 - 03/22/06 10:49 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

i often remember after just drifting off a bit, that a slight loss of balance in the seated pose




Most of my deep meditation is done on my back.
It's a shock to feel like your falling back when you're already on your back!!!:whoa:


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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5429250 - 03/22/06 11:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

interesting. those of you who have some proficiency in meditation experience the falling effect automatically. i guess this effect is essential in going to deeper layers of consciousness, so if you do not induce it yourself you will experience it automatically. fascinating. inducing the feeling of falling is like a shortcut for us beginners, and trains us to get the feel for going into trance or deep states of contemplation with ease. keep meditating yuall!


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Re: Meditation [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5429343 - 03/22/06 12:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
interesting. those of you who have some proficiency in meditation experience the falling effect automatically.




I am far from proficient, my friend. I know virtually nothing about different types of meditation.
I kinda fell into meditation to help with anxiety and depression. Read up on some of the basics and started my own meditation "dogma".

Quote:

i guess this effect is essential in going to deeper layers of consciousness,




I will have to take your word on this.

Quote:

so if you do not induce it yourself you will experience it automatically. fascinating.




I didnt set out to have this happen.
This was the first time I had ever heard of someone else experiencing the falling sensation during meditation.

I have had it happen twice. It was like the floor dropped away from me. Happened real fast. Both times startled me and I stopped the meditation.

I will take your advice of climbing a ladder and then slowly free falling.



Quote:

inducing the feeling of falling is like a shortcut for us beginners, and trains us to get the feel for going into trance or deep states of contemplation with ease. keep meditating yuall!





Thank you for showing me this aspect of meditation I never knew of before.


I wonder if I should keep "feeling my way thru" like I have been so far......

or buy some books and do some reading???


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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5429540 - 03/22/06 01:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

glad i could be of some help niteowl. remember there is a difference between going into trance and true meditation. trance states are similar to deep states of meditation, but in trance we use this deep state to program our minds and manifest change in the physical world. meditation is more of just Being still, and feeling what its like to just "be". although different thoughts and sensations may arise throughout the mind and body the trick is to not be alarmed by or attracted to any thought or sensation, just let your mind flow like water. be like water my friend. with meditation we learn to adapt to any situation or realm of experience and remain essentially centered, focused, balanced. water adapts to whatever, if you put it in a cup it becomes the cup, put it in a kettle it becomes the kettle. your mind must be like this, flowing, but not rigid, adaptable, changeable. soon you will notice the world is nothing but constant change, in flux with rising elelemts and passing elements with no real substane, like an illusion, and that your meditation in a state of complete emptiness and unchanging calm awareness is the only real reality. some reading wouldnt hurt. www.wildmind.org has some good meditations, but mostly for buddhist perspectives. I highly suggest finding a qualified meditation teacher in your area. nothing can replace the value of a qualified teacher.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5430126 - 03/22/06 04:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I haven't bought any books. The internet is valuable, not because the information I find is as complete as what I would expect in a book, but because you can get a feel for comonalities, what's highly effective, and what might be hogwash.

I'd be open to a book on chakra meditation, but I've got plenty to keep me busy until I get my lower chakras open. I'll be intrested in some solid information once I'm focusing on my throat and head, but that's a ways off.

Rahz


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Re: Meditation [Re: Rahz]
    #5430429 - 03/22/06 05:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

open schmopen

if there is binding work until there is some release.
all chakkras are alike yet a bit different.

working chakkras is about removing binding or clog.

the moment is where it is at and that can and will be anything.

btw
mostly I do meditate on my back
and often at night
and often when I wake up for no particular reason
and the whole thing is good.


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Re: Meditation [Re: Rahz]
    #5430820 - 03/22/06 06:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I haven't bought any books. The internet is valuable, not because the information I find is as complete as what I would expect in a book, but because you can get a feel for comonalities, what's highly effective, and what might be hogwash.

I'd be open to a book on chakra meditation, but I've got plenty to keep me busy until I get my lower chakras open. I'll be intrested in some solid information once I'm focusing on my throat and head, but that's a ways off.

Rahz




actually once an Acharya (a monk) from Ananda Marga told me it is not wise to work on lower chakras especially if one is not already good at void meditation. He said that the development of the upper chakras brings the lower ones into harmony automatically, and natural development of the upper chakras is gained through meditation.
if anything work on the third eye, throat, heart, and solar plexus. third eye is easy to open just concentrate on it and breathe naturally. you will know if you are sucessful if you get a slight headache in the area of the third eye after your meditation.throat can be opened by mantras or singing and chanting, and the heart chakra can be opened by lovingkindness meditation. the lower chakras such as the second chakra and root have certain energies that shouldnt be unstabalized.the second chakra is referred to as the secret chakra in Tibetan philosophy and contains wrathful energies. not wrathful as in negative, but powerful.


oh and what i mean by OPEN is cleared of blockages, and the the clean flow of energy through each chakra with no stagnation or negative thought matter, astral junk ect. open means everything is flowing properly and working. its easy, you just have to have good visualization and be in mild to heavy trance state. the deeper the trance the more effective your visualization will be.


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Re: Meditation [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5431923 - 03/22/06 11:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

haha, some say black some say white.

What you say makes a lot of sense though. Perhaps I'll broaden my approach and see what happens. Thanks for the perspective. At the same time, I'm starting to get the idea that it's not the path I choose, so much as whether I'm willing to do the walking.

Rahz


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