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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5421379 - 03/20/06 08:54 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The sitting meditation technique that I use was learned from Zen monks (Soto flavor). I sit, facing a blank wall, and breath. If a thought enters my mind, I simply let it go and continue to breath. I don't try to analyze the thought, and I don't scold myself for having thoughts. Instead, I let go of the thought and go back to breathing. As my mind calms, all kinds of crazy things start to happen... I will hear noises and ringing sounds... the walls will start to breath, the textures will start to move... the room will get brighter and darker... etc... All of this stuff is ignored. If I notice it, I let go of it, and continue to breath.

> And what happens (or what should I expect) after I breakthrough?

Nothing... go back to breathing.


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OfflinePeyote_Princess
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Re: Meditation [Re: Seuss]
    #5421451 - 03/20/06 09:44 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Here's a chakra diagram I find though very simplistic, is a good opening guide to the positions...

http://www.lartin-drake.com/chakras.html

Have a surf around the net for more on opening up different elements of yourself more

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


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"Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meditation [Re: Peyote_Princess]
    #5421553 - 03/20/06 10:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

there have been a few shroomery references in the last year or so

use the search button at the top

many of the participants in these threads are still around here,

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4783945/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4371004/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5421850 - 03/20/06 12:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I learned meditation by myself. Later I did countercheck my knowledge with the original Buddhistic stuff and came to the conclusion, that is exactly, how I did it:

First step: samatha (that's what most here say, what's about breathing, clearing/calming/quieting ones mind)
->
Second step: vipassana (is about focusing attention in the most clearest way. With this, even astral travels, oobes and rebirthing techniques will be possible)

Just try to understand the principles of samatha and vipassana and then do it your way :laugh: (Of course you can even use the detailed instructions, but doing something from your own self will accumulate the effects)

And all doors will be open :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Meditation [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5421901 - 03/20/06 12:22 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Rahz, can you tell me more about this chakra meditation? And the order, for opening the chakras?


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5421952 - 03/20/06 12:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5422229 - 03/20/06 02:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

chakkras don't exactly open and close as neatly as acupuncture points.
and the result is not the same as following a specific recipe and getting the same dish from different kitchens.

you may find a bunch of kundalini people that say all's you gotta do is start at the bottomand run tothe top.

and you might find some hinayan people that send you in from the nose and down and back up,

much variance.

much fake expertise too.


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5422801 - 03/20/06 09:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Has anyone experienced this:

Once I finally quieted my thoughts, I heard a loud noise. I concentrated on this noise, and it became real loud, then i got a intense body high. The noise kept increasing, until I finally lost focus......wtf just happened? Was I about to have an OBE? or astral project?

It felt like something big was about to happen. I wasn't prepared for this, so I kinda stopped. What happens when I break through?


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5423126 - 03/20/06 10:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Differences between Zen meditation and Yoga meditation were explored decades ago [K.T. Behanan] and there are certain behavioral differences such as startle response which can be documented. The nature of the 'trances' seemed to differ, with the concentrative Yoga trance making one more oblivious to external startle stimulus than the Zen meditation. The whole 'Point' is to 'contract your attention around a point.' It is not a "crutch," it is called 'Ekagrata' - one-pointedness, and it constitutes the Yoga stage of 'concentration' which becomes 'meditation' when it becomes effortless.

Of course Zen IS meditation, and the results of meditation, derived from Ch'an, taught by Bodhidharma, etc. No need to be possessive about your take on it - it IS another take on Zen. There must be as many takes on Zen as there have been practitioners - or non-practitioners  :wink:




I dissagree with your saying that Zen IS meditation, but that is what the internet is all about  :wink:  Zen is Zen.  That is it.  Meditation plays a part in it (Zazen), but it is not Zen.  Regarding concentration as a crutch, I should have been more specific.  I am referring to it in the practice of Shikan-taza or "Just sitting," which is the core practice of the Soto Zen lineage.  I am quite familiar with many forms of meditation, and understand the value of concentration where the practice calls for it.  In the lineage I study and practice, concentration is seen as something for self image to cling to, a closing off of the mind. But all roads lead to Rome :laugh: 

I am curious about this comparison between Yoga and Zen meditation.  What source are you referring to?  I would like to read it. 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


Edited by Quoiyaien (03/21/06 01:01 AM)


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5423167 - 03/20/06 10:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ElectricJW said:
Has anyone experienced this:

Once I finally quieted my thoughts, I heard a loud noise.  I concentrated on this noise, and it became real loud, then i got a intense body high.  The noise kept increasing, until I finally lost focus......wtf just happened?  Was I about to have an OBE?  or astral project? 

It felt like something big was about to happen.  I wasn't prepared for this, so I kinda stopped.  What happens when I break through?




I would just let what ever is to happen, happen.  Try not to analyze things too much.  It sounds to me like you were falling into a trance.  Cool    :cool: 

Keep at it, and report your experiences. :laugh:

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5425342 - 03/21/06 03:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

>>>>can you tell me more about this chakra meditation? And the order, for opening the chakras?

The framework I use starts at the bottom and moves up, but as said, there's other methods. A good place to look is answers.com they have some info, plus clickable related terms which can get you a view into traditional forms. New Age chakra meditation abounds on the net, a google will pull up a ton of this stuff. Also, do a google image search for chakra. Check them out and you'll begin to see there's a lot of different opinions on the form and positions of chakras. I've seen a picture that's got 15+ chakras located above the head extending several meters up. I've seen a picture that shows the root extending front to back. I don't know what they're experiencing, but for me the root points downward. But hopefully if someone drew this stuff they're experiencing it as well...

I do know the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th extend all the way through the body, as well as others which I haven't meditated on. The front and back of these chakras are said to be the ying and yang, or female and male aspects. Going back to the breathing excersise, one guy wrote that as you breath in, imagine a soft cool energy (feminine)running down the front of the body to the sacral (2nd) chakra (where chi is created). When you exhale, send the energy up your spine through the top of the head (stimulating the male aspects).

For me, I don't see all the chakras being charged by the root. For instance, when I'm laying down meditatig on the 2nd chakra I feel the energy rising upward, not up from the root, but up from the bed/couch/ground I'm lying on on. For the 3rd, the energy is comming directly into the chakras from the front and the back. They're all a little different, but that's just the way I do it. I would encourage you to _read as much as you can_, try different methods and pay attention whenever you read a warning or danger associated with a particular type of meditation.

I have found some new age stuff helpful, but it's importaint for me to understand that the concepts they use are simply constructs to facilitate the flow of energy. If imagining I'm a tree helps, I'll do it... but as I've learned how things flow I'm begining to drop the construct and just let the energy move. I have found the use of color association curiously helpful. As I'm meditating on the root for instance, I try to envision my body and the energy as red. At first this seemed damn near impossible, the red would shift into crimson, purple, rust, orange etc. Oddly, the closer the color is to a true, vibrant red, the more the chakra opens. After a lot of practice, seeing red has become much easier. Right now, I feel like the color association is also a construct, but because it works so damn good, I have no plans to drop it.

Let me know if you have more questions, but keep in mind I'm a newb.

Rahz


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Meditation [Re: Rahz]
    #5426137 - 03/21/06 06:44 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I almost got it to work again, but lost focus....I'll try it again sometime soon, and see what happens.

Rahz....Nice post. I actually saw a book @ the bookstore, that was about chakra healing or something like that. I was thinking about picking it up, but I'll wait for now. Do you have any books that you could recommend?


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5426502 - 03/21/06 07:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

deep states of meditation produce theta waves, and this has been shown before in studies with meditating Zen monks who produce theta waves that are very refined and certainly far beyond the capacity of a normal human on an EEG. in working with chakras or other energy systems of the body and consciously moving the Chi or Prana, it is desireable to be in a deep theta state to block out input from thoughts and other garbage which exists in the mind in normal consciousness. to reach a theta state one can induce a trance which is quite easy once one becomes adept at it. what we are doing by going into trance is switching off the active left side of the brain to gain acess to the subconscious facilities in the right brain, like rewiring the electricity in a building. we use the trance state to program the mind to make what we want to manifest in our reality. must start off slow your first couple of times, and then work your way from light trance to deep states of trance.

to get into a trance state takes practice so remember each of us is an individual some of us may find this easier than others. the important thing is persistance and keep practicing.here is the technique for falling into a trance:

1. sit comfortably. do not lie down your first couple of times
because you might fall asleep. keep your spine straight, but try to relax your muscles.
2. breath in for a count of at least six or up to nine counts, depending on your lung capacity. hold for the same count, then release for the same count, and start over. do this breathing until you are completely relaxed, ideally you should not be able to feel your body much anymore. you can achieve this slowly by relaxing each part of your body in a sequence starting with the feet working your way up.
3. once you are relaxed you must now try to achieve a falling effect so what you must do is imagine (not visualize, imagine) you are climbing down a ladder. really try to feel yourself moving down a ladder. breath in and hold on to the ladder, breath out and feel yourself take a step or two down and repeat this as many times as you feel comfortable with. after a while you let go of the ladder and freefall backards. this falling effect or feeling is essential to entering an alpha state and mental calmness and physical relaxation added allows one to go deeper into trance into a theta state.
4. keep the falling effect up for as long as it takes for you to enter trance and this will vary for different people. once you get a heavy feeling feeling stop the falling effect.

a trance feels like: everything is quieter and you feel like the space around you has expanded, like you are in a much bigger place.kind of like when you put a cardboard box over your head. a slight rocking or sensation of movement will occur along with a humming feeling in your body. any sharp noises while in trance are painful so make sure you will not be disturbed or brought out of trance abrubtly beause this can be harmful. once in trance you can work with your chakras, the easiest way is to visualize them one by one and then see them getting brighter with each time you breath out. a quick runthrough of the chakras can be seen here : http://www.atimetoheal-om.net/philosophy-chakras.htm

to get out of a trance slowly feel yourself coming back to your body, like start with your fingers or toes, then work your way up to major limbs and once you feel yourself back in your body you can open your eyes.

deeper states of trance take practice but once you become adept at it you wont even need to practice the exercises for long because you will know how to fall into trance at will in a matter of seconds. i have been working with trance states for a few months and it gets easier the more often i practice, but i sometimes have periods where i take a long break and then it becomes more difficult to go back into trance again. once in trance you can do many other things such as astral projection, remote viewing, shamanic work such as journeying, soul retreival, healing, past life regression, or meeting spirit guides and teachers. the trance is used by every shaman around the world or some form of altered state to do their work. the astral realm is the world beyond our physical reality, the background that makes up what becomes manifest. when we enact change in the astral realm it manifests in some way in the physical.
i might also add. all the above work can be done and quite easily in the Lucid dream state. i find astral travel is much easier in a lucid dream, and it is easy to seperate from your physical body.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Meditation [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5428846 - 03/22/06 09:18 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Woah!

I have had a sudden sence of falling backward during deep meditations, on more than one occasion . It freaked me out and caused me to stop the meditation.

I must explore this farther :strokebeard:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5428992 - 03/22/06 10:27 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

during meditative absorption frames of sensation will stack or layer as with entheogen.

the initial application of concentration becomes automatic because it too becomes stacked into a feedback kind of mental sequence.

i often remember after just drifting off a bit, that a slight loss of balance in the seated pose would begin cascading into a huge collapse leaving me gasping - which is something like a salvia gravity effect, mixed with emerging from a deja vu.

exactly
Woah!


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5429074 - 03/22/06 10:49 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

i often remember after just drifting off a bit, that a slight loss of balance in the seated pose




Most of my deep meditation is done on my back.
It's a shock to feel like your falling back when you're already on your back!!!:whoa:


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5429250 - 03/22/06 11:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

interesting. those of you who have some proficiency in meditation experience the falling effect automatically. i guess this effect is essential in going to deeper layers of consciousness, so if you do not induce it yourself you will experience it automatically. fascinating. inducing the feeling of falling is like a shortcut for us beginners, and trains us to get the feel for going into trance or deep states of contemplation with ease. keep meditating yuall!


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Re: Meditation [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5429343 - 03/22/06 12:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
interesting. those of you who have some proficiency in meditation experience the falling effect automatically.




I am far from proficient, my friend. I know virtually nothing about different types of meditation.
I kinda fell into meditation to help with anxiety and depression. Read up on some of the basics and started my own meditation "dogma".

Quote:

i guess this effect is essential in going to deeper layers of consciousness,




I will have to take your word on this.

Quote:

so if you do not induce it yourself you will experience it automatically. fascinating.




I didnt set out to have this happen.
This was the first time I had ever heard of someone else experiencing the falling sensation during meditation.

I have had it happen twice. It was like the floor dropped away from me. Happened real fast. Both times startled me and I stopped the meditation.

I will take your advice of climbing a ladder and then slowly free falling.



Quote:

inducing the feeling of falling is like a shortcut for us beginners, and trains us to get the feel for going into trance or deep states of contemplation with ease. keep meditating yuall!





Thank you for showing me this aspect of meditation I never knew of before.


I wonder if I should keep "feeling my way thru" like I have been so far......

or buy some books and do some reading???


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5429540 - 03/22/06 01:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

glad i could be of some help niteowl. remember there is a difference between going into trance and true meditation. trance states are similar to deep states of meditation, but in trance we use this deep state to program our minds and manifest change in the physical world. meditation is more of just Being still, and feeling what its like to just "be". although different thoughts and sensations may arise throughout the mind and body the trick is to not be alarmed by or attracted to any thought or sensation, just let your mind flow like water. be like water my friend. with meditation we learn to adapt to any situation or realm of experience and remain essentially centered, focused, balanced. water adapts to whatever, if you put it in a cup it becomes the cup, put it in a kettle it becomes the kettle. your mind must be like this, flowing, but not rigid, adaptable, changeable. soon you will notice the world is nothing but constant change, in flux with rising elelemts and passing elements with no real substane, like an illusion, and that your meditation in a state of complete emptiness and unchanging calm awareness is the only real reality. some reading wouldnt hurt. www.wildmind.org has some good meditations, but mostly for buddhist perspectives. I highly suggest finding a qualified meditation teacher in your area. nothing can replace the value of a qualified teacher.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Meditation [Re: niteowl]
    #5430126 - 03/22/06 04:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I haven't bought any books. The internet is valuable, not because the information I find is as complete as what I would expect in a book, but because you can get a feel for comonalities, what's highly effective, and what might be hogwash.

I'd be open to a book on chakra meditation, but I've got plenty to keep me busy until I get my lower chakras open. I'll be intrested in some solid information once I'm focusing on my throat and head, but that's a ways off.

Rahz


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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