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Reflections on ego-loss
    #1772577 -

Since my experience with ego-loss, I have been thinking about what it's purpose is.

If I am not mistaken, I think that Buddhism teaches the way to peace is dissolution of our ego, the loss of self. (Can someone expand on their concepts of this?)

Why? What is the of purpose of this? Is this something that should be realized every day? Or should we only venture to this realm on special occasions, with whatever frequency is deemed neccesary? Is this the source of spritual energy, and does "tapping" into it from time to time, provide us with some sort of benefit?

The experience for me, at the time felt truly life-changing. I felt like I had confirmation of the connection we all share, be it God, the oversoul, or whatever else you want to call it.

There were many other insights I had that night, but this is the only one I came away with that I can remember.

And as I said, at the time, I really felt like I could "touch", the entity of our collective consciousness. But is it real?

Is it possible that the reason we feel and see this connection, is our brains are hard-wired function, with an indentity? Is it simply our mind trying to latch on to something with which to define ourselves? Is the feeling that many have described as touching god, just an
illusion?

This also has me curious as to the mechanics involved with mushrooms and ego-loss. How is it, that so much of our cognitive processes, abstract reasoning, some verbal ability, and motor coordination, remain intact, albeit at an altered level of functioning. I suspect that the same part of the brain that functions to provide our self-indentity, also plays a large part in the operation of our language centers.

For me, at the level of ego-loss, and even in level 4 trips, verbal ability seems to be the most effected. I seem to think very profound thoughts, but see them only in the abstract, they are simply concepts that I can't find the words to describe.

But why should we attempt to lose our ego's? What is there to be gained by this? I took alot from my experience, but it isn't one I am sure I want to relive. However, I find myself thinking about it all the time, and doing it again, to see if I can provide myself some answers.

I approach all things as possible, and there are few things I have written of as impossible, I just tend to think that some things are more likley than others. If, there is some sort of unseen spritual force that everyone is subject
to, I feel like the possibility of a collective consciousness is the most likely answer. But if it is the source of my spirit/soul, and I am gonna go back to it upon my death, shouldn't my self-indentify, and the experiences that all reference this, be something I embrace while I am here?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Edited by HagbardCeline (08/02/03 12:16 PM)

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1772601 -


I'm not a neurobiologist, but I wish I knew. The brain is very complex and mysterious. It will be a while before science can get a good grasp on the brain.

Also, I don't know why anyone would want to live a life wanting enlightenment and no desire for anything. I do think that desire can and does (in most cases) creates dispair. I'm not easily hurt by not having things, so I'm okay in that area. But what good is a life if you live it to not live it? Desire is nessasary to form an ego, and an ego is a good thing to have imo. Loosing your ego at least once in your life is a very good thing thow.

In some ways, I think becoming one with the universe is like no longer existing. This is why I think the ego is a good thing.




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Murex]
    #1772675 -

In my opinion, from my life studies and what I've learned - the ego is a product of the mind for survival. It is a tool - however, much like anyother tool, can be harmful if used incorrectly.

When we are unaware we are using ego, which almost everyone is, we are misusing it, and it is harmful.

If we are unaware we are holding a knife, that can be VERY harmful. If we are unaware of the food we are eating, it can be VERY harmful.


The ego itself isnt harmful. Being unaware of it in any moment is what harms us and others.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Murex]
    #1772708 -

In Buddhism, dissolution of the ego is sought as a means of unconvering one's Buddha-nature. Buddha-nature is something that it's believed all sentient beings possess, a sort of pure and truth-set mind, like a jewel that cannot be destroyed.



On Egolessness:

The concept of an "ego-personality" is something that has been imagined by a discriminating mind which first grasped it and then became attached to it, but which must abandon it. On the contrary, Buddha-nature is something indescribable that must first be discovered. In one sense, it resembles an "ego-personality", but it is not the"ego", in the sense of "I am", or "mine".

To believe in the existence of the ego is an erroneous belief that supposes the existence of non-existence; to deny the Buddha-nature is wrong, for it supposes that existence is non-existence.



On Buddha-nature:

Buddha-nature is always pure and tranquil no matter how varied the conditions and surroundings of people may be. Just as milk is always white regardless of the colour of the cow's hide, either red, white, or black, so it does not matter how differently their deeds may condition people's life or what effects may follow their acts and thoughts.

The diamond, the hardest of known substances, cannot be crushed. Sand and stones can be ground to powder but diamonds remain unscathed. Buddha-nature is like the diamond, and thus cannot be broken.

Pure gold is produced by melting ore and removing all impure substances. If people would melt the ore of theire minds and remove all the impurities of worldly passion and egoism, they would all recover the same pure Buddha-nature.



On Suffering:

If everyone has Buddha-nature, why is there so much suffering from people cheating one another and killing one another? And why are there so many distinctions of rank and wealth, rich and poor?

There is a story of a wrestler who used to wear an ornament on his forehead of a precious stone. One time when he was wrestling, the stone was crushed into the flesh of his forehead. He thought he had lost the gem and went to a surgeon to have the wound dressed. When the surgeon came to dress the wound, he found the gem embedded in the flesh and covered over with blood and dirt. He held up a mirror and showed the stone to the wrestler.

Buddha-nature is like the precious stone of this story: it becomes covered over by the dirt and dust of other interests and people think that they have gone from it, but a good teacher recovers it again for them.

Buddha-nature exists in everyone no matter how deeply it may be covered over by greed, anger, and foolishness, or buried by his own deeds and retribution, Buddha nature cannot be lost or destroyed; and when all defilements are removed, sooner or later it will reappear.

Like the wrestler in the story who was shown the gem buried in his flesh and blood by means of a mirror, so the people are shown their Buddha nature, buried beneath their worldly desires and passions, by means of the light of Buddha.

From: The Teaching of Buddha, Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai, The Japanese Society for Buddhist Understanding



So Buddha-nature is something buried inside of us, beneath all of our "defilements". Defilements are worldly passions that we chase and attempt to possess. It would include materialism, the desire for power and control, wealth, drug and alcohol abuse, sexual abuse and other misdeeds. Karma plays a big role here. These things cloud our perceptions and lead us into the world of delusion and illusion, of suffering. The object of following Buddha's teaching is to walk the path of the Middle Way, the fine point between all extremes. It is to purge our minds of distorting influences, and become one with that which understands no lies.

I'm fascinated by the metaphor illustrated suggesting that melting the ore of the mind will allow the gold to come apart from the undesirable impurities. Truly, when I experience psychedelic drugs, the ore of my mind feels melted. I believe there is merit to the cross-referencing of Buddhism and psychedelia.

But that's just my take on things.



The Story of Buddha:

Shakayamuni Buddha, Siddartha Gautama, the first Buddha, was born into a luxurious royal life. He lived apart from the real world of competition and suffering. When he was a teenager, he was taken into the city for the first time in his life. Prince Siddartha's father, the King, cleared the city streets of beggars and the old, the sick. He wanted his son not to ever experience suffering. But his efforts failed, and Siddartha found his eyes on an old, dying woman. Confused, he fled his chariot and followed her and her children to the river, where many were starving, ridden with disease. Siddartha then discovered compassion.

Siddartha disowned his royal status, seeking a life of understanding. Wandering India's countryside on foot, he came across a group of Yogis, and they instructed him in the way of Yoga. For years he lived on insects and tree bark, seeking enlightenment by depriving his body of the resources it needs to assert itself.

One day, along the river came some peasant women with food to eat and clean water to drink. They called to Siddartha, and offered him a meal, which he accepted. It was then that he understood that he had swung from one extreme to another, from the lap of luxury to self-starvation. He realized, and imparted to his Yogi teachers, that the path to Enligtenment is the Middle Way, the path between all extremes. They deemed him disloyal, having given to temptation, and left him.

It was then that Siddartha made his resolve, to sit under the Bodhi tree and meditate until he reached enlightenment. After having battled day and night with the illusions of his ego, his desires, his instincts for hunting and sexual conquest, he succeeded. Siddartha Gautama, The Lord Buddha, then wandered India spreading his teachings until he died of natural causes at age 81.

The term "Buddha" was coined much after his sitting at the Bodhi tree. It is meant to say "The Awakened one", or in modern terms "The first guy who figured out what the fuck is going on here."






--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Ped]
    #1772766 -

actually, its not definite who was alive first, Laozi or Buddha, So Buddha could very well be the second guy who figure out what the fuck is going on here.



--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1773141 -

I don't think the goal of Buddhism is to lose the ego permanently (how could you), but to lose in temporarily/at will in order to realize that the ego is only a small part of our whole true selves.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1773473 -


Hey 3eyedgod! I haven't seen you in a while. Welcome back. :laugh:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Murex]
    #1774662 -

Bunch of nonsense bullshit. If ego is the conscious model of the self, then an ego-less state is not experiencing anything (unconscious). Please redefine your term.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1777612 -

> I don't think the goal of Buddhism is to lose the ego permanently

In Zen Buddhism, there is no goal.

Do mice run from cats because they are trying to survive, or simply because mice run from cats?

> then an ego-less state is not experiencing anything

It is a state of not experiencing anything with respect to anything else. Each experience is taken for what it is, not for what it is compared to another experience.

> the ego is a product of the mind for survival

The ego is a byproduct of want and desire...

Does a mouse want to survive, or does it simply live in a way such that its survival is likely?

> I don't know why anyone would want to live a life wanting enlightenment and no desire for anything.

Either do I. Wanting enlightenment is yet another trapping of the ego.

> But what good is a life if you live it to not live it?

When I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I sleep. Is this not living?

> Desire is nessasary to form an ego, and an ego is a good thing to have imo.

While sitting and watching the snow fall, I notice that I am cold. I think to myself, "Gee, I wish I had a coat. If I had a coat, I wouldn't be cold right now". Looking down the way, I see my neighbor wearing a coat. Thinking to myself, "Gee, I deserve a coat more than my neigbor does. I am a much better person." Etc...

-or-

While sitting and watching the snow fall, I notice that I am cold. The wind blows stirring the snow flakes to dance in the air.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1777652 -

Quote:
Bunch of nonsense bullshit.  If ego is the conscious model of the self, then an ego-less state is not experiencing anything (unconscious).  Please redefine your term.


No, an ego-less state is when there is consciousness about perceptions without having the self-model involved.

And regarding the usefulness of the ego: of course it's useful, it keeps you alive! :laugh:

The problem is that it has this tendency to haunt you and to make you do silly things in order to convince yourself that you're not wasting away your life as a mortal. The cure is to consciously free yourself from all worldly attachements.
 

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1777656 -

Quote:
No, an ego-less state is when there is consciousness about perceptions without having the self-model involved.



Have you ever experienced this state? If so how do you recall it? What function did you use to commit it to memory?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1777660 -

What happens on ego-loss?
Pure awareness and ecstatic freedom from all game (and biological) involvements. ["Games" are behavioral sequences defined by roles, rules, rituals, goals, strategies, values, language, characteristic space-time locations and characteristic patterns of movement. Any behavior not having these nine features is non- game: this includes physiological reflexes, spontaneous play, and transcendent awareness.]
So ego = game-playing.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: ShroomyJ]
    #1777916 -

Ego is commonly thought of as the lone mediator between us an our environment. To extinguish the ego is to completely seperate us from our ability to interact with our environment. This is not true.

The ego-personality is a biased partisan to desires, compulsive drives, and delusions. It is the illusion of "us-and-them", of "me-in-the-world". It is a mediator between us and our world, but it is not the mediator.

It's loss is not your own extinction.




--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1780583 -

Quote:
It [ego loss] is a state of not experiencing anything with respect to anything else. Each experience is taken for what it is, not for what it is compared to another experience.


Pretentious nonsense.

Ego loss is not experiencing anything with respect to one's self, however, since ego is a functional necessity of experience, this can't occur. Ego is a functional necessity of experience because experiences are not things that float around an accumulate, they occur to things. Any experience requires some sort of identification with an experiencing entity.

I simply think that what you say about the experience being taken for what it is, is complete bullshit. Or, at least, it's entirely based on faith and can't be verified.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1780585 -

Rhizoid said:
No, an ego-less state is when there is consciousness about perceptions without having the self-model involved.


Correct, but you can't have an experience which doesn't occur to something. As long as you are experiencing, your brain is still constructing the experience as occuring to something. Ego is a functional necessity of experience, thus ego loss requires unconsciousness.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: ShroomyJ]
    #1780587 -

ShroomyJ said:
What happens on ego-loss?
Pure awareness and ecstatic freedom from all game (and biological) involvements. ["Games" are behavioral sequences defined by roles, rules, rituals, goals, strategies, values, language, characteristic space-time locations and characteristic patterns of movement. Any behavior not having these nine features is non- game: this includes physiological reflexes, spontaneous play, and transcendent awareness.]
So ego = game-playing.


I've read that book. I don't see anything correct about it. It's a model, like Leary said. Please think for yourself instead of copying out of a book.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780590 -

Tearing up the boards tonight, ah Phencyclidine?





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sez alan watts: [Re: cdchriscd]
    #1780746 -

Narrowed, serial consciousness, the memory-stored stream of impressions, is the means by which we have the sense of ego. It enables us to feel that behind thought there is a thinker and behind knowledge a knower --- an individual who stands aside from the changing panorama of experience to order and control it as best he may. If the ego were to disappear, or rather, to be seen as a useful fiction, there would no longer be the duality of subject and object, experiencer and experience. There would simply be a continuous, self-moving stream of experiencing, without the sense of either an active subject who controls it or of a passive subject who suffers it. The thinker would be seen to be no more than the series of thoughts, and the feeler no more than the feelings.
(from _nature, man and woman_ 1958)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780854 -

> Pretentious nonsense.
> I simply think that what you say about the experience being taken for what it is, is complete bullshit. Or, at least, it's entirely based on faith and can't be verified.

I used to think the same thing.  :smile:

> Ego is a functional necessity of experience, thus ego loss requires unconsciousness.

Not at all.  Perhaps ego is needed to judge an experience, but not to have an experience.  When I daydream, I loose all connection with what is happening around me, yet I am not unconscious.  In the same respect, egoloss does not require unconsciousness.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: GazzBut]
    #1784229 -

Quote:
Have you ever experienced this state? If so how do you recall it? What function did you use to commit it to memory?


Yes, twice so far, both times on mushrooms.

I wrote down some notes while coming down on both occasions, this helps me recall some portions of it. Afterwards I spent a couple of weeks wondering about what's possible to bring back from such an experience. I think what is brought back is a sort of imprint, or a kind of projection of the experience.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1784249 -

How can one be concious of perceptions but not use some form of self model?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1784255 -

Quote:
Correct, but you can't have an experience which doesn't occur to something. As long as you are experiencing, your brain is still constructing the experience as occuring to something. Ego is a functional necessity of experience, thus ego loss requires unconsciousness.


The experience is experienced by some consciousness and a recording of the experience is stored in my brain, to be recalled and reflected upon by some later consciousness.

I don't agree that ego is a functional necessity of experience. Consciousness and memory is all that's needed.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: GazzBut]
    #1784266 -

Quote:
How can one be concious of perceptions but not use some form of self model?


Perceptions are still available unless you're unconscious. And the perceptions include various self models. But the ego is no longer in the driver's seat. It's asleep on the back seat, but will answer simple questions if needed. :smile:
 

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1784310 -

I have had experiences on mushrooms and acid which some may classify as "ego-loss". I think ego transformation better describes what happens to me. Although one experience I had whilst merely stoned on pot seemed to see me merge with several identities and then all of these identies began to fall away. I somehow managed to pull out of the experience before going any further, like a chicken! That feeling had a real sense of potential ego loss to it.
Anyway, I think we could do with discarding the term ego. Like "god" or "spiritual" it means so many different things to different people.

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1784319 -

> this helps me recall some portions of it.

I have found that the more effort I spend trying to recall, the more dilute (tainted) the experience becomes... Granted, the experience hasn't changed, but the memory or impression of the feel of it becomes muddled.

> think what is brought back is a sort of imprint, or a kind of projection of the experience.

Very well said.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1784324 -

> I have had experiences on mushrooms and acid which some may classify as "ego-loss".

Most of the time when I read reports from people talking about a level-5 trip, they are not describing what I tihink of as ego-loss.  They typically go something like,  "I took 30g dry and was so out of it that I was talking to the doorknob.  Talk about ego-loss... whew, was it scarry...".  I am not impling that this is the case with your experiences!

> Anyway, I think we could do with discarding the term ego.

That is the problem with written/verbal communication in general.  The meaning of the words are defined in the mind of the listener regardless of the intent of the teller.  This is why I never understood 'dirty' or vulgar words.  If I cuss in a language that somebody understands, they get upset.  If I cuss in a language that the somebody doesn't understand, they do not.  It is not my cussing that upsets this person, but rather their own interpretation of what I am saying.

For me, the term ego-loss simply implies that the world is seen without judgement... or perhaps that experiences are accepted without judgement.

> I somehow managed to pull out of the experience before going any further

That sounds very familiar.  :smile:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1784422 -

Quote:
Most of the time when I read reports from people talking about a level-5 trip, they are not describing what I tihink of as ego-loss. They typically go something like, "I took 30g dry and was so out of it that I was talking to the doorknob.


I think there are many cases of ego-loss which are never reported or remembered because nothing is brought back. The immediate memory is just a blank, or maybe a few confusing fragments of experiencing things in a depersonalized state without realizing the implications.

In the memory of my first ego-death experience there is a blank part between the last things I remember from peaking, and the first things I remember from the period of ego-loss. The transition is missing. I didn't look at the clock so I don't know if the transition took 0.1 seconds or 10 minutes, but that part is missing from my memory.

I wonder if there is an optimal dose for producing ego-death and bringing as much as possible back from it? A dose that's too low will not alter brain function enough, and a dose that's too high will just add more confusion and discomfort to the experience.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1784446 -

Quote:
They typically go something like, "I took 30g dry and was so out of it that I was talking to the doorknob.



No thats no what I meant. I have only had the experiences like the ones I think you and Rhizoid have described when on my own, in the dark etc. But I have had a few moments where I could have chatted away to a doorknob too! :smile:

Anyway, I see the ego as the software that interprets the data which represents the objective world. Kind of like our operating system. When I have an experience which could be described as ego-loss I see it as an update (sometimes temporary) to my o/s(ego) but my hard drive does not get formatted! Always some portion of the original O/s remains! Does this explain why I dont agree with the term ego loss?

Its fun to build these mental sandcastles as long as we dont mind when they get washed away eh?!!

Peace

 


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1784778 -

Strange... don't rate a user while you are in the middle of posting or you will get a double post...



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Edited by Seuss (08/06/03 11:31 AM)

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1784801 -

>  In the memory of my first ego-death experience there is a blank part between the last things I remember from peaking, and the first things I remember from the period of ego-loss.

Kind of like when I wake up from a dream.  I have some idea of what the dream was about, but the longer I am awake, the more distant those memories get.

> The transition is missing.

Yep.  I still remember the beginning and ending of my first time very clearly.  I got lost while looking at the patterns swirling in the carpet.  I had been trying to figure out the mathmatics behind the patterns so that I could write a screen saver using the effect when I suddenly realized that I was no longer in Kansas... kind of like waking up underwater.  A moment of pure panic as I shot to the surface.

> I wonder if there is an optimal dose for producing ego-death

For me a low level 3 (about 3.5g dry) is the best.  It is enough of a dose that my mind is flexible to getting lost, but not so much of a dose that I cannot focus or concentrate.  I have to couple the dose with meditation, or nothing happens, which I find very difficult at higher doses.  The higher doses leave me talking to doorknobs as well.  :grin:

I used to keep a journal of what little stayed with me when I came back from these states.  There are some very interesting entries in there...

Riding the waves of reality.
That which is, is not.
Illusions of illusions.

... and one of my all time favorites:

Two is one.
One is one.
Three is ten thousand.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1784875 -

Here is a passage that made a lot more sense to me when I re-read it after my experience, than it did before. It's from the book "The Psychedelic Experience", the part where they interpret the Chikhai Bardo or first stage in the Tibetan Book of the Dead:

The first radiance knows no self, no concepts. The secondary experience involves a certain state of conceptual lucidity. The knowing self hovers within that transcendent terrain from which it is usually barred. If the instructions are remembered, external reality will not intrude. But the flashing in and out between pure ego-less unity, and lucid, non-game selfhood, produces an intellectual ecstasy and understanding that defies description. Previous philosophic reading will suddenly take on living meaning.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1784896 -

Quote:
Seuss said: When I daydream, I loose all connection with what is happening around me, yet I am not unconscious. In the same respect, egoloss does not require unconsciousness.


When you daydream are you imagining events that occur to you or to nothing at all?

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1784971 -

> When you daydream are you imagining events that occur to you or to nothing at all?

I have to think on this one. Since I started meditating years ago I really haven't noticed myself daydreaming anymore.

From what I can remember, my daydreams were more like lucid dreams where pretty much anything could happen.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1784988 -

hmm yeah, maybe there are trip reports about the ego death, when it hasnt actualy occured. 

I had one trip, it wasnt the ego death. at first I thought I was being taken back to our mother planet, or home, our true home. Later that turned into me dying, byt that did not matter as I knew I would carry on after I left my body behind.  Anyway, the further I got into it, the more I lost myself and merged with "the all" (if you wanna call it that) the closer i got the more it pounded at my head and the more confused I was, yet I was close to having the truth about my exsistence revealed to me.

I also felt very strong instincts about what was happening to me, I felt an insticnt to prepare my body, as a gift, but I began to worry that I had not looked after my body eneough and I wasn not in the right psycial psotion to give it up, so i assumed the lotus position :smile:

anyway, I imagine if I had gone deeper into the expereince I would have totaly lost MYSELF. there would have been no sence of me, as in the human me who goes to work etc.  but I would have been something. 


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get it all together get like birds of a feather

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1785028 -

I didn't have an ego "death" but i had it broken down for a few hours on a shroom trip once. I realized that the ego is just like a gun. You use it to protect yourself, however alot of times it creates more problems than it solves.
When it came back it made me cry because i didn't want it anymore, but its like alchohol. Just knowing that i have a problem is the first step.
The ego is what makes us think we are an individual and not part of a whole. It makes us look out for ourselves and not think of others.
anyways i found it quite inlightening being knocked off my high horse for allitle while.


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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Dreamer987] * 1
    #1787709 -

Here are a few thoughts from the early days of Zen which directly relate to egoloss:

On Believing In Mind by Seng-t'san (died 612):

[snip]

The Perfect Way knows no difficulties except that it refuses to make preferences; Only when freed from hate and love does it reveal itself fully and without disguise.

[snip]

Ane when oneness is not thoroughly understood, in two ways loss is sustained; The denying of reality is the asserting of it, and the asserting of emptiness is the denying of it.

[snip]

Abide not with dualism, carefully avoid pursuing it; As soon as you have right and wrong, confusion ensues, and Mind (Emptyness) is lost.


Song of Enlightenment by Yoka Daishi (died 713):

[snip]

When Reality is attained, it is seen to be without an ego-substance and devoid of all forms of objectivity.

[snip]

Here one sees neither sin nor bliss, neither loss nor gain; In the midst of the Eternally Serene no idle questions are invited.

[snip]

All melts away and I find myself suddenly within the Unthinkable itself.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Seuss]
    #1787773 -

I read this a few days ago...

"On the other hand, it is by means of the universe that the individual is impelled to realise himself. Not only is it his foundation, his means, his field, the stuff of the divine work; but also since the concentration of the universal life which he is takes place within limits and is not like the intensive unity of Brahman free from all conception of bound and term, he must neccessarily universalise and impersonalise himself in order to manifest the divine All which is his reality. Yet is he called upon to preserve, even when he most extends himself in universality of conciousness, a mysterious transcendent something of which his sense of personality gives him an obscure and egoistic representation. Otherwise he has missed his goal, the problem set to him has not been solved, the divine work for which he accepted birth has not been done." - The Essential Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo.


I think here Aurobindo means that we must keep some of our ego intact during our moments of expanded conciousness. Perhaps otherwise we fail to bring back any meaningful data? This could relate to the "blank parts" or "transistions" you guys have mentioned.

Peace


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: GazzBut]
    #1790104 -

This is all very interesting, but, unless I missed it while skimming over all of your posts, I think you all deem the ego as an inherent part of the human psyche. Now, I'm not a psychologist so please don't be too harsh if you don't agree :smile: , but perhaps the dissolution of th ego that occurs on high doses of psychadelics or in deep meditation is not a transcendance of some instinctive part of the mind, but a dissolution of an illusion? This is more than just speculation however; there is a book I glanced at earlier this summer; I forget the name of the author but the title is "The origins of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind". I only read the first few chapters of it, but the author appears to have made an extremely thorough argument that self-awareness is not inherent, but instead emerges from societal influences. I'm afraid I can't back this up any further without referring to the book (which I've already returned to the library), but some of the author's evidence came from analyzing the Iliad and noting that there is no concept of self-awareness or free will in the story; events and actions are attributed to the influence of dieties. The author also had a defense against the obvious retort that this is merely a poetic device; but again I'm sorry I don't remember what it was. Anyways, hope this gives some new insight on the subject.

I guess the best way to determine such would be to study the actions of a newborne infant, and to study an indigenous human culture that has not been influenced by the outside world (which i doubt is possible)

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: psylicon]
    #1794708 -

I don't equate consciousness with self-awareness or the ability to verbally express self-awareness, so I don't think such arguments lead anywhere. But since I'm inclined to believe that there is some truth in the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, I find it reasonable to think that our concepts of consciousness have changed whenever our language about consciousness has changed.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #28964403 -

Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
It [ego loss] is a state of not experiencing anything with respect to anything else. Each experience is taken for what it is, not for what it is compared to another experience.


Pretentious nonsense. 

Ego loss is not experiencing anything with respect to one's self, however, since ego is a functional necessity of experience, this can't occur.  Ego is a functional necessity of experience because experiences are not things that float around an accumulate, they occur to things.  Any experience requires some sort of identification with an experiencing entity.

I simply think that what you say about the experience being taken for what it is, is complete bullshit.  Or, at least, it's entirely based on faith and can't be verified.
 


This may a little late, but don't believe Phencyclidine to be correct here. One must only look to a baby, right? They have no functional ego but still experience.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: HagbardCeline] * 1
    #28964463 -

HagbardCeline said:
Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
It [ego loss] is a state of not experiencing anything with respect to anything else. Each experience is taken for what it is, not for what it is compared to another experience.


Pretentious nonsense. 

Ego loss is not experiencing anything with respect to one's self, however, since ego is a functional necessity of experience, this can't occur.  Ego is a functional necessity of experience because experiences are not things that float around an accumulate, they occur to things.  Any experience requires some sort of identification with an experiencing entity.

I simply think that what you say about the experience being taken for what it is, is complete bullshit.  Or, at least, it's entirely based on faith and can't be verified.
 


This may a little late, but don't believe Phencyclidine to be correct here. One must only look to a baby, right? They have no functional ego but still experience.


Not that Phencyclidine's explanation aligns with mine,
for my take is that if you are having an experience of any kind,
then there is the process of experiencing which includes memory formation and a degree of perception
which reflexively adds references (neural connections) to related experiences from memory (of sensations in the least case) to the new forming memory.

Babies have plenty of sense memory which is the reference that they keep expanding as they explore and experience the world.

the new person's tabula rasa state is actually a condition found at ~3 months when the brain is still initially forming the parts that do take in experiences this way.
By the time a foetus is kicking (4-5 months) it has awareness and is already forming memory continuously except while dreamless sleeping.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28967849 -

That concurs with my reasoning as well. They are making memories, weak and  fleeting though they may be, but without a functioning ego.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #28968041 -

Why weak?
Only less accessible later due to context misalignment - the cues for reflexive reactivation of the the intra uterine memories are missing.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28968052 -

I’ve wondered about intrauterine (/womb) memory, particularly after numerous experiences of myself floating in slow motion ..

(as if due to being immersed in an invisible yet more viscous field than my usual environment in the room I’m in at the time would provides)

… wherever I’m at while I’m practicing Zazen at random times throughout my life - especially when I doze off and begin dreaming that I’m practicing zazen.  I’m not quite sure how else to account for such an experience recurring.. albeit varied each time, but still very much the same.  Anywho.  The physics of it would seem to fit the bill of a body floating in the womb, occasionally there’s the tug back of the umbilica if the float goes beyond the slack of it, or I hit an insivible wall of sorts.

The experience I’m referring to may be unrelated to the womb, purely a coincidence, I don’t know for sure though.

Thoughts?


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Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28968061 -

Inability for recollection. No matter what the mechanism is that inhibits this recollection, it doesn't change the result. Easily accessible memories are strong, less or even non accessible are weak.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Reflections on ego-loss [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28968068 -

reasonable speculation I think, but who could verify such a thing.
amazingly witness reports are sufficient for a court room to convict a suspect, but memory is unreliable by nature.
fundamentally it is familiarity and response.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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