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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6661521 - 03/12/07 11:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
being good is good
being impeccable, can be obsessive or good depending on attitude.




Being obsessive is not impeccable. You must be thinking of something a little less profound. Like addiction.:grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6661769 - 03/13/07 12:11 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Being impeccable is being impeccable. Impeccability can not be if you are obsessed with being impeccable. You can't be a warrior, for example, by saying you are a warrior. It is the same with impeccability. Being obsessed with impeccability does not mean you are impeccable. It means you don't really grasp impeccability at all. Or, perhaps, you know what it is, but don't actually implement it. The warrior is defined by acting, not by thinking about acting. One who obsesses, therefore, is not a warrior, and cannot be impeccable.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 33,861
bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6661857 - 03/13/07 12:42 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

the sense of being transcendently excellent.
i think bill and ted had it right,
not too christian.
waste no time with absolutes - go right to excellent.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6661863 - 03/13/07 12:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I agree, "be excellent to each other" is profound advice.


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Offlineshizznit
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Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 146
Loc: Palatka FL
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: Veritas]
    #6661956 - 03/13/07 01:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

love thy neighbor as you would love yourself


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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6662003 - 03/13/07 01:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What would the point of such enlightenment be?


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: shizznit]
    #6662021 - 03/13/07 01:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shizznit said:
love thy neighbor as you would love yourself



Would ? WOULD ? :eek:
Do it ! Love YOU ! Now and immediately ! You are the one to love YOU ! Now now now now now ! :laugh:
Only then, you can treat your neighbor the same way :grin:
:heart: :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 33,861
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6662214 - 03/13/07 02:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
What would the point of such enlightenment be?



ahh, you have learned to ask koans
someone smack this guy with a stick!


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OfflineLion
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6662278 - 03/13/07 02:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
What would the point of such enlightenment be?



ahh, you have learned to ask koans
someone smack this guy with a stick!


to what End?

(I think maybe I'll get this one later?)

:confused:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 33,861
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Lion]
    #6662665 - 03/13/07 04:35 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

beginning
middle
end
an emphasis on end is directed to extreme, or absolute.
this is about totality and what is between ledger columns and lines.
what end are you from?
do you need more end or more between?


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OfflineLion
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6662767 - 03/13/07 05:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
beginning
middle
end
an emphasis on end is directed to extreme, or absolute.
this is about totality and what is between ledger columns and lines.
what end are you from?
do you need more end or more between?


as always, that kind of depends on what happens. the limbo is not such a bad dance; takes a toll on the spine though


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6667746 - 03/14/07 03:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
aikido is the only smart way to fight.
the oncoming energy is redirected.
I agree you can be enlightened over and over, but I can't see it as a state, or stasis of any kind, the dance is too complex and natural to be stasis.




Being a state, does not mean that it is some kind of stasis. The only things that 'cease' are the afflictive obscurations and non-afflictive knowledge obscurations that prevent our natural 'state' from manifesting its unlimited potential for wisdom and compassion.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (03/14/07 06:08 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6668126 - 03/14/07 06:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

but those things do not cease in themselves,
the activity of seeing through them becomes more natural.
the idea of cessation is an extreme or limit. A bounding edge. something which like any mathematical line needs infinitesimal thinness at the incomprehensible extent beyond which .....

if you examine the issues about nirvana (an extreme or limit easily misconstrued as heaven, but also unfortunately considered as the "ultimate") and the bodhisatva way (unlimited but also free of ultimates) you will see where I am coming from.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Registered: 12/23/04
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Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6668293 - 03/14/07 07:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
but those things do not cease in themselves,
the activity of seeing through them becomes more natural.
the idea of cessation is an extreme or limit. A bounding edge. something which like any mathematical line needs infinitesimal thinness at the incomprehensible extent beyond which .....

if you examine the issues about nirvana (an extreme or limit easily misconstrued as heaven, but also unfortunately considered as the "ultimate") and the bodhisatva way (unlimited but also free of ultimates) you will see where I am coming from.




Well no, its not extreme, because it is 'the middle way' (based on four noble truths of suffering, cessation, the path, and the result) free from extreme views. To deny cessation, is to deny what the Buddha taught that is found in all the traditions

The Bodhisattva manifests from a state free not only from afflictive obscurations such as the Nirvana state realized by an Arhat, but from a state also free from non-afflictive knowledge obscurations. This means that although suffering has ceased, the Bodhisattva, being free from knowledge obscurations cognizes the limitless suffering of sentient beings, and thus manifests compassionate activity accordingly.

Nirvana is not a place, but a state of realization in which all suffering has ceased. I don't know why you are trying to say i confuse it with an idea of heaven, or some such place. That is ridiculous.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (03/14/07 08:36 PM)


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6700499 - 03/23/07 04:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Process:
Grow a plant. Cut it down. Hopefully the root structure is developed enough to support new growth... Grow a bigger plant cut it down. Grow another... Trim that shit banzai style. Just the way you like.


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 33,861
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702013 - 03/23/07 02:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

just imagine nirvana as a state not a place, ok
Quote:

Sinbad said towards the end of some complex sentences:.....
Nirvana is not a place, but a state of realization in which all suffering has ceased. I don't know why you are trying to say i confuse it with an idea of heaven, or some such place. That is ridiculous.




I only want to mention that a penchant for simpler words may entangle you less; you can use buddhism to refine your inner simplicity, but not your language.

Actually using all these buddhist words together to make sentences is really not the purpose for which they were invented.

each one is a koan or poem. part of the delivery of teaching to a group who were receptive, or later coined in commentary.

what i quoted above, from sinbad, is very precious.

here, the mind has sorted and sifted through buddhist concepts
rearranged them using language and attitude, and tacked on
"That is ridiculous."

there is nothing wrong with it - we learn more from the child within than from the sage.


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702170 - 03/23/07 04:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The sentences and words that i used are really not that complex for someone who has a good grasp of the English language, and Buddhist concepts. (as you said that you have studied the abhidharma, i thought that you would be able to understand).

As for all buddhist words and concepts being koans, umm, maybe in Zen traditions that is somewhat true (does not apply to when they are learning sutras, meditation etc), but for a blanket statement thats pretty absurd and does not apply. What i found ridiculous was the insinuation that i equate the buddhist state of Nirvana with some heavenly abode.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 04:11 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702550 - 03/23/07 06:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

ok for now
will respond later with a diagram in a new thread
hold that thought


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702553 - 03/23/07 06:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

As long as it isn't the same diagram that Markos has shown me. :lol:

I think i get what you mean about Buddhist concepts being koans, as in you reflect on them. But koans, in the Zen tradition, because it has incorporated some Confucianism aspects into its practical application, actually have a slightly different, more direct purpose. Not all dharma is transmitted that way.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 07:01 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702589 - 03/23/07 07:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

dharma is reality
teaching in words is live
I will give it to you in a diagram soon as I get home and photo my diary
it has to do with one-way-only-words

words that work one way in public
or one way in private
as opposed to words that you may easily construct sentences out of for conversations.
buddha used many one way transmissions to the attendees of his talks.
this exhalted the acolytes and was recorded
the recorded words have to be understood as experiences not as dogmas.
we can learn from them, but recycling the words is an act that gets emptier and emptier

like this
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6702024#Post6702024


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