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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702619 - 03/23/07 07:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Buddha also used many constructive sentences in response to his attendance. At one time he just held up a flower, and only one person out of hundreds understood. There are many dharma gates and many ways of transmission, as there are many sentient beings with differering capacities for understanding dharma as it is.

The recorded words are to be understood, first intellectually, then reflected upon to discover provisional meaning, then meditated upon to experience the definitive meaning in our existence. In a Zen way of course, koans are used to directly cut the root of conceptual thinking, this is the quality of the method. Words are nothing but fingers pointing, we should not mistake them for the sky itself.

Some words are living communication of the dharma, in that pith instructions can be understood in experience when transmitted by a teacher directly. But the words remain on the page and disappear like echo's when spoken. We must go beyond words.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 08:13 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702697 - 03/23/07 07:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

how do you know?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702723 - 03/23/07 08:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

All teachers since the time of the Buddha who, have followed his path, have said that this is how the dharma can be understood. First by learning, then by reflecting, then by meditating to discover in our experience. Of course, you can intuitively discover dependent ingratiation, emptiness etc through your own individual effort in meditation, but it has become so much easier since the Buddha has given us so many wonderful teachings and methods to work with our condition.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 08:43 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702824 - 03/23/07 08:51 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

that is what all teachers have said?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702842 - 03/23/07 08:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Teachers, who followed the Buddhist path, since the time of the Buddha have learned, reflected and meditated. So this is what they teach there students to do, obviously.

Even with Zen, you listen to what the teacher says, reflect on it, and then meditate accordingly, else how can one have realization?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702918 - 03/23/07 09:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

then how is it different from studying biology or french?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702929 - 03/23/07 09:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Its different because studying Buddhism is the same as studying ourselves. The subject to learn is about our condition. We reflect on the implications of what we have learned, and how it applies to us in our condition, then we meditate according to the methods given to have that realization precisely (going beyond intellectual knowledge).

If you seriously can't figure out how studying Buddhism is different from studying french and biology, then you have a lot more study, reflection and meditation to do red.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6703076 - 03/23/07 10:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

the only subject you will ever behold is your death


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703081 - 03/23/07 10:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

buddha is the object of breath

study my wake


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703106 - 03/23/07 10:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
the only subject you will ever behold is your death




Oh contre, death is the dissolution of the subject. :grin:


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6703743 - 03/24/07 01:14 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

can you conceive that?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703746 - 03/24/07 01:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Conceptions die also, as the subject maintains them. :grin:


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703751 - 03/24/07 01:17 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

how will you know this object when there is no subject?
can you kill many?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703785 - 03/24/07 01:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What object? :what:


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6703815 - 03/24/07 01:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

that mans last breath,
or the planet that took it


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703843 - 03/24/07 02:04 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The subject is still conscious of the last breath, i.e not dead yet, duh.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6704069 - 03/24/07 04:00 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

how can a subject be conscious if you say it exists independently of the living?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6704079 - 03/24/07 04:04 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

A subject does not exist independently, period.


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Offlinedream_alchemy
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6708029 - 03/25/07 08:52 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.





I wanted to add that our natural state is entirely relative,
we are never 100% sober,

so as far as a natural state being unlikely to occupy it goes both ways,

to feel the moment is natural as well as to flow with,
we aren't returning to any state,
nor are we departing


my 2c


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I'm just passing thru u


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6710662 - 03/26/07 04:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

just like consciousness?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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