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InvisibleIcelander
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Revisiting Enlightenment.
    #6655695 - 03/10/07 01:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The other night Hue and I had an interesting conversation and he has an interesting view on enlightenment.

What does enlightenment mean for you?

Also what does the enlightened person act like?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (03/10/07 01:03 PM)

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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655735 - 03/10/07 01:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

To me, enlightenment is similar to Castaneda's "stopping the world." For that reason, it cannot be named and maintained at the same time. It is the state of no internal dialog, when looking at a normally identifiable object render no judgment, indeed, one may be asking oneself exactly what one is seeing or experiencing, when they have seen it a million times before. It is a state of being in between states of being, an inevitable question that cannot be answered but must be asked, an ultimate realization that no realizations are true. Temporary permanence. Seeing what isn't seen, and feeling what isn't felt, or hearing what isn't heard. And all the while, knowing, with some uncertainty, that everything you know, you know by association and nothing else. If I could capture a moment of what, to me, is enlightenment, everyone could experience it equally, with the same validity of the experience, and the same description, because it is an indescribable state, and while there, one knows that to be there in itself is paradox. It is both a void, empty of dimension or color or any relative description that the mind could ever comprehend, and the sum total of the descriptive powers of the mind, existing without any arrangement whatsoever.

In other words, I have no fucking idea. :smile:


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655740 - 03/10/07 01:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655745 - 03/10/07 01:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The other night Hue and I had an interesting conversation and he has an interesting view on enlightenment.

What does enlightenment mean for you?

Also what does the enlightened person act like?




Like?

Its self...

What? Of many answers, I chose this one; "Being of the light, in the light!"

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6655746 - 03/10/07 01:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

In other words, I have no fucking idea. :laugh: I like this.

I'm hoping Hue will chime in here soon and fire this discussion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655753 - 03/10/07 01:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Nope, can't say I agree.

I'm more inclined toward the continual realization that 'Everything I know is just a matter of my opinion."

I'm not just saying that Castaneda wise either, most things I have read have lead toward silence of the internal dialog, and unconditional acceptance of everything about oneself, both inside and out.

My biggest problem with Sinbad's statement is that humans, for all our societies have given us, are so bombarded with extremes, that to assume what we believe is not an extreme is to be only fooling ourselves.


The specialist will eventually know everything about nothing.
The generalist will eventually know nothing about everything.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

Edited by justamonkey (03/10/07 01:46 PM)

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655795 - 03/10/07 02:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Enlightenment to me is when all afflictive obscurations have been purified.

Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood carry water and maybe teach those who are open, but mainly chop wood and carry water. :lol:


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (03/10/07 02:24 PM)

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655801 - 03/10/07 02:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.




Why would it seem that way to you? Is it because you are confusing the term ignorance perhaps, and what that term implies?


--------------------

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6655811 - 03/10/07 02:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

justamonkey said:
Nope, can't say I agree.

I'm more inclined toward the continual realization that 'Everything I know is just a matter of my opinion."

I'm not just saying that Castaneda wise either, most things I have read have lead toward silence of the internal dialog, and unconditional acceptance of everything about oneself, both inside and out.

My biggest problem with Sinbad's statement is that humans, for all our societies have given us, are so bombarded with extremes, that to assume what we believe is not an extreme is to be only fooling ourselves.


The specialist will eventually know everything about nothing.
The generalist will eventually know nothing about everything.




I don't quite follow what you're trying to say here.


--------------------

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655817 - 03/10/07 02:14 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Enlightenment to me means Buddhahood, and Buddhahood means awareness. We are all Buddhas. But that doesn't mean we all realize we are Buddhas. We are like fish swimming in water that don't realize we are swimming in water, and so, because of this ignorance, we give rise to all sorts of problems, like greed, attachment, hatred, etc. Enlightment is simply realizing what we all intrinsically are: selfless, impermanent, and empty. It's one thing to say this and to have knowledge of this, but another entirely to really understand it, down to the marrow of your bones. True understanding is true 'enlightenment'.

What does the enlightened person act like? That's impossible to say. Actions are based on situations, and to put an enlightened person's actions in a box would simply be another illusion. In general, the precepts are said to be the expression of the enlightened or Buddha nature itself. So they would be a rough guideline for how an enlightened person would act. However, precepts are not commandments set in stone, and so if acting by a certain precept would not be the appropriate action in a given situation, then doubtless an enlightened person would deviate from the precepts in accordance with compassion or whatever else was necessary.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655827 - 03/10/07 02:18 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.




Yes, I agree.

It is relatively more rare to find an 'enlightened' person than an ignorant one, but it's not unlikely if one really puts all one's effort into it.

"Afflictive obscurations" arise when there is ignorance of your true nature. Once you get rid of these false views and actions, then you walk the eightfold path, and enlightenment could come at any time. In fact, in the words of master Dogen, practice is itself enlightenment. It is an expression of enlightenment, just like breathing is an expression of life. Because we are alive, we breathe, and because we breathe, we are alive. Just so, we practice because we are enlightened, and we are enlightened because we practice.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: dblaney]
    #6655886 - 03/10/07 02:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

a compass points in a direction (north) and all other directions can be determined from this, so within the scope of our lifetimes we can use such a direction as an absolute or a true direction.

absolute north.

scientifically the idea of north can be refined endlessly and can be edited over millenia so it si never absolute (though it seems to have a lot of consistency), and the idea of a PURE direction becomes a more real Relative direction, when it is seen for what it is against more "realities" - i.e. in more time slices.

when we use the word "north", however, we can be pretty comfortable about it's meaning in nearly every context - comfortable that what we think and mean is really well set up for sharing with others and our own future needs.

almost everything else, except North, is very subject to the flux of surrounding conditions and must accommodate the carooming movements of a multiplicity of other beings and bodies in all sorts of directions.

what we are looking for when we say the "middle way" or the "cessation of suffering" (both of which characterize enlightenment) are directions that are much more dynamic than North.

kind of like a living compass within.

It is not the TRUE MIDDLE WAY that we seek (a proven or known thing), but an available temporary position in our own living path that is balancing our attitudes in an intelligent way.

For enlightenment we seek a kind of mentation that promotes finding and working with dynamic balancing direction finding like this.

Absolutes become replaced with plasticities, rigidities with fluidity, certainties with openness.

It seems a paradox in terms but not in fact. The enlightened way is not coming in from a fixed ray like from heaven, and it is not a thing that has been enlightened by any single event (inside or outside), nor is it enlightened for all time. (like the christian "good to go" shrive my soul kind of thing).

Still it is always accessible and directly knowable.

naturally talking about it is not the same as taking up the middle way


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6655894 - 03/10/07 02:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655951 - 03/10/07 03:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.




It means, completely purified, as in free from affliction and no chance whatsoever for the afflictive obscurations to arise again. The primary root of the poisonous tree (ignorance) has been cut, never to grow back.


--------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6655952 - 03/10/07 03:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.



like true north
pure is a relative direction,

the phrase consistently refreshing covers the scope where Pure is usually employed.

Pure is not really a living term


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6655965 - 03/10/07 03:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It's the "completely purified" part that I feel uncertain of.




It means, completely purified, as in no chance whatsoever for afflictive obscurations to arise again. The primary root of the poisonous tree (ignorance) has been cut, never to grow back.




what poisonous tree?
are you building a self / not-self axis of evil to chop and kill.

this needs to be reconnected into one living thing


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6655973 - 03/10/07 03:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Don't get hung up on words red, its a metaphor. The three afflictions of ignorance, craving and hatred form the 'poisonous tree' that consistently produce the causes and fruits of our suffering.

It maybe your xtian conditioning that is bringing up all these ideas of evil, etc.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6655978 - 03/10/07 03:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Since Hue isn't around right now I will try to get his ideas across. Hue likened Enlightenment to DJs idea of impeccability. Not that one never again falls off his path but that one always brings things back to center. This is quite different from the traditional ideas of Enlightenment. The problem I have with the traditional ideas or the ideas of some here is that none to my knowledge ever experience them. Only the figures of the past. Others talk as if they know enlightenment but I'm guessing that they are just repeating something they believe in rather than embody. If there are no examples (living breathing examples) then I remain skeptical to say the least.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6655992 - 03/10/07 03:18 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

we can use metaphors to awaken parts of the whole to eachother,
then put the metaphors (compasses and clocks) back in the bag.
these sayings have even less use than "north" in an absolute or pure sense.

after waking up to some aspect of truth flexibility and cohesion is the next thing you want.

our jusxtaposition is in the realm
living dharma vs rigid dogma


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656004 - 03/10/07 03:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

There are many living and breathing examples, that is the big difference with the buddhist path. It consistently produces examples of what it teaches (not that i am anywhere near that example).

But there are also a lot of charlatans out there ready to take your money. But in a real sense, the only way you can ever know enlightenment, is to discover it within your own experience. Little tastes along the way will always provide inspiration.

As you know, the Buddha was not fond of anyone taking anything that he said on blind faith.


--------------------

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656048 - 03/10/07 03:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Enlightenment is a living breathing reality. It does not suddenly make one perfect.

There are living examples, but it's unlikely that awakened people are going to advertise their awakened status. They're around though.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: dblaney]
    #6656081 - 03/10/07 03:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

They're around though. And you know this because?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656088 - 03/10/07 03:42 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

c'mon ice
we already know you got it.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6656091 - 03/10/07 03:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

As you know, the Buddha was not fond of anyone taking anything that he said on blind faith.

And I don't as I have said. I am just not sure as I don't consider myself enlightened in this sense and have never met anyone who seems to be. The times I did think that I felt over time that I was mistaken.

As leary said, enlighten does not make one perfect. That makes sense to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656103 - 03/10/07 03:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

who said you were perfect,
that is sinbad's struggle,
you got the light, man.

and the mouse. (er, rat)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6656107 - 03/10/07 03:48 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Could enlightenment be the end product of a personal spiritual apocalypse that renders your ego and previous reality myth dead??


--------------------

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656110 - 03/10/07 03:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
As you know, the Buddha was not fond of anyone taking anything that he said on blind faith.

And I don't as I have said. I am just not sure as I don't consider myself enlightened in this sense and have never met anyone who seems to be. The times I did think that I felt over time that I was mistaken.

As leary said, enlighten does not make one perfect. That makes sense to me.




Enlightenment doesn't make one perfect in a relative sense, but it does make one perfectly enlightened. :wink:


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6656115 - 03/10/07 03:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Whatever that means? :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6656118 - 03/10/07 03:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
c'mon ice
we already know you got it.




Are you flirting?  :love:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656176 - 03/10/07 04:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

To describe ideas to one another we use words, which are simple agreements. Even if each of those words' definitions only vary a microscopic amount to each person, when the sentence is through, we have spoken volumes who's content is entirely different than we first meant it to be.

Therefore, I stick with my original view. Enlightenment is a constant path of impeccability indescribable because it has no description, and because it has all description and no arrangement.

Don't try to understand or relate, relating nothing to nothing will only prove nothing.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6656237 - 03/10/07 04:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm discussing this for entertainment purposes only.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656252 - 03/10/07 04:34 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
They're around though. And you know this because?




I guess there are some elements of faith and some elements of personal experience involved in my reasoning.

I might have scrolled past it, but did you mention at all your own interpretation and view of enlightenment?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: dblaney]
    #6656331 - 03/10/07 05:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I have no longer any solid view on enlightenment, I'm waiting for some personal experience that I might want to call enlightenment. I suspect that I will have to do with something else. Who knows.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (03/10/07 05:02 PM)

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656419 - 03/10/07 05:43 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

To try to live life without creating regrets.

Staying simple, yet retaining elegance.

Some say balance is the most important aspect in life, yet the most difficult to maintain.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6656765 - 03/10/07 07:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The gist of my comments to Ice last night concerning enlightenment was based on my recent experience working with the ideas presented by Castaneda, Eckhart Tolle, and Chögyam Trungpa. I have been actively applying much discipline to the techniques these individuals have put into writing, and I have found many intersections in these bases of knowledge. For some time now I have put serious work into maintaining awareness of the present without allowing the mind to wander both in every day life and in meditation and yoga. After much effort I have come into understanding of what I feel constitutes enlightenment.

In the act of meditation one observes the thoughts and when they start to wander one brings the mind back into focus and back to center. Carlos Castaneda, Eckhart Tolle, and Chögyam Trungpa, in their individual works, encourages one to put this into practice as a 24 hour a day practice...to maintain a state of bringing the mind back to center whenever it wanders. Castaneda called this internal silence...or as justamonkey noted "stopping the world". The discipline that this teaches one rapidly starts to snowball. One sees changes in every area of ones life. One finds ones self bringing not just the mind, but the body as well back to center ever more frequently. This produces a state where one gains tight control of ones attention. I have come to see that what is referred to as the state of "enlightenment" is not a static egoless state, for the ego...though it can be temporarily transcended...cannot be removed permanently. The state of enlightenment...like any mental or physical state...is dynamic and it does not describe perfection. Many people confuse the ego less experience of satori or the ego death of psychedelic drugs with enlightenment...but satori and ego death are just tools of transcendence that help us to realize the goal. Enlightenment is the process of always bringing ones self back to center...applying that discpline every waking moment. Buddhists call it enlightenment, Castaneda called it impeccability, and Eckhart Tolle called it honoring the present moment, but in the end they are the same animal. It is not a mythological unrealizable state of perfection but a living growing discipline and way of life.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineGrok
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6656854 - 03/10/07 08:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Enlightenment is unique to individuals. I believe that we are all on the path to our own enlightenment.

'en' light 'en'= the light within.

To be full realzied and to Know and practice your true potential would constiutute enlightenment to me.

Then again, I also see open mindedness, kindness, and being laid back as a state of enlightenment.

Enlightenment doesn't make anyone or anything perfect. Everyone and everytrhing already is perfect.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Grok]
    #6656896 - 03/10/07 08:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

To be full realzied and to Know and practice your true potential would constiutute enlightenment to me.





This is the goal. Every discipline is but the tool leading to this end.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Grok]
    #6656905 - 03/10/07 08:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cilosyb said:
Enlightenment is unique to individuals. I believe that we are all on the path to our own enlightenment.

'en' light 'en'= the light within.

To be full realzied and to Know and practice your true potential would constiutute enlightenment to me.

Then again, I also see open mindedness, kindness, and being laid back as a state of enlightenment.

Enlightenment doesn't make anyone or anything perfect. Everyone and everytrhing already is perfect.


I don't understand what "true potential" means exactly; that is one of the toughest things for me in talking about enlightenment.

I have the potential to have a vast wealth of intellectual understanding of the world I live in, to have a wide array of satisfying relationships with family, friends, partners, to travel the world, to dance more freely with the Joyous Here & Now. This is potential I would like to actualize to the highest degree possible, for the simple fact that it feels good.

Enlightenment comes in degrees, I guess, as a function of the relationship between the loosening of attachment to outcomes and the striving to self-actualize on as many planes as possible in the present moment.


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Lion]
    #6656912 - 03/10/07 08:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe something like fully and continuously knowing and feeling that

"the world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid ever, because this is just a ride." And we … kill those people. "Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one."

-Bill Hicks


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Lion]
    #6657422 - 03/11/07 01:15 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

To me there seem to be at least two uses for "enlightenment":

1. A point at which you divide the story of a person's life between the ordinary state and the enlightened state.

2. A certain quality that runs through the episodes of a defined set of experience. The common quality of experience is "enlightenment" in this usage.

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Epigallo]
    #6657608 - 03/11/07 04:33 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think that enlightenment is well cast as a state
it is much more like an attitude.

or even better as a quality within a series of attitudes.
states of mind relate to the retention and overlay of images - the amount of electrical stickiness or twang to the mind. Like dream states or stoned states or hysterical states. Enlightenment can penetrate those states. One still dreams, one still faces desire, one still has sex, one still quaffs wine.

enlightenment works to brighten the world and to lighten the psychic load (suffering) whatever the state of mind. or whatever the state of the union.

i.e. through good times and bad.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6657981 - 03/11/07 10:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
As you know, the Buddha was not fond of anyone taking anything that he said on blind faith.

And I don't as I have said. I am just not sure as I don't consider myself enlightened in this sense and have never met anyone who seems to be. The times I did think that I felt over time that I was mistaken.

As leary said, enlighten does not make one perfect. That makes sense to me.




Enlightenment doesn't make one perfect in a relative sense, but it does make one perfectly enlightened. :wink:




Sadhu! Well said!

I see people are worried about the 'total enlightenment' as being an asymptotic ideal, and not something achievable.
Well first to nag about semantics, the only enlightenment one could discuss exists in the context of christian mysticism and neoplatonism, the illumination of the soul. The buddhist word (and I see buddhist concept is to a large extent discussed here) is bodhi, meaning simply awakening, as in, being awake, noticing, understanding.I think this nicely strips that concept of hazy mysticism typical of neoplatonism that so fully permeates western thought.
Secondly, there certainly is no awakening to be found whatsoever. If there were, this would imply a strict dualism between the way of existing of ordinary shmucks like myself and fully awakened buddhas. In fact, ultimatelly, there is no difference at all.

As far as the "asymptotic 'enlightenment'" goes, well this would find a better equivalent in the concept of bhumi, stages of the path, than of bodhi. First bhumi is indeed an experience essentially alike awakening, only not as 'stable' or as 'wast'.

When I say that ultimately a samsaric being like myself is no different than a buddha, I mean to say that there is no something, no Ideal, no Absolute no Peak to find anywhere.
Perhaps youll find this poetical expression as interesting as it is to me, its from 'The Supreme Source' tantra:

From his single. total, self-arising wisdom manifest the five great wisdoms: the self-arising wisdom of anger, the self-arising wisdom of attachment, the self-arising wisdom of ignorance, the self-arising wisdom of jealousy, and the self-arising wisdom of pride.

...

Great being, listen! This pure and total consciousness, which is the essence of the universe, is the authentic condition of all phenomena, a spontneous, natural state that has been present from the beginning. ...Leaving it as it is without correction it means being in the authentic state. From the beginning there is no idea of having to meditate on a view. From the beginning there is no idea of having to meditate on a view. From the beginning there is no idea of having to maintain a commitment. From the beginning there is no idea of having to acquire the capacity for spiritual action. Leaving everything as it is, one is in the authentic state.


So the very idea that awakening as something remote, far away, completely Other, something to be pursued and found is obscuration.

So how is this reconcilable with the dreary facts of existance, a practice, a path etc? Simply in that while in basis same, a delluded shmuck like myself is not recognising it as it appears through every experience, and that in any case since it allways there that essentially nothing changes when he does, and that the search itself is just a spontaneus manifestation. Buddhism is a very rational and calm religion, and does not speak of transcendent unspeakeble Something, but things trivially simple and obvious, base common and unsuprising that we fail to take notice of. Thus neither rationalistic in the western sense of logical Thought percieving Divine, nor in the mystical uncognisable ecstatic transrational Union. For teaching purposes it is explained as two truths, the relative everyday and ultimate sunya, emptyness, the ultimate being based in the relative and vice versa, but things get really interesting when its noted that there is in fact no such dichotomy either.

So, to the proposed lineary achievable awakening, and the asymptotically perpetual and perpetually far awakening, Id propose an infinitesimally close and everpresent awakening.

Edited by aryah (03/11/07 11:01 AM)

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: aryah]
    #6658115 - 03/11/07 12:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

good vocab, aryah


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6658440 - 03/11/07 01:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

My immediate impression is, like everything else, that there is no objective, fixed 'thing' called Enlightenment. Rather than point out an individual like Neem Karolie Baba from BE HERE NOW, and compare my own inner and outer life to the stories attributed to his, it makes more sense for me to simply say (with regard to me) that I am presently more Enlightened than I was formerly. This, as well as I can ascertain, is a thoroughly true statement, but the comparison is only made between me and me.

There are so many variables to consider 'intrapsychically' - that each one of us is a universe of experience unto ourselves! There is the simple fact of maturation across our lifetime. Maturation, like the 'aging' of wine, can result in a fine vintage or just an old spoiled souring.

Then there is the social milieu that we find ourselves in. If one experienced the late 1960s, early 1970s, there was a 'spirit of the times' which recognized 'self-actualization,' a psychological renedering of the Indian spiritual Self-Realization. Personal growth towards Enlightenment was part of the collective social consciousness. Lots of people meditated, even buttoned-down suit types. A good example of powerful social consciousness is the work that the British hypnotists James Braid and James Esdaile did in colonial India. As physicians, they found that Indian subjects would manifest hypnotic trances to a much more profound degree, to the point of conducting some 300 limb amputations without pain and with minimal bleeding, through hypnotic suggestion alone - no drugs! Trances in general have been a recognized aspect of Indian mentality for millennia. The same operations were not going to be performed on aristocrats in merry old England without the anaesthesia of the day.

I have come to see when my 'job' as counselor just flows, and when I am trying too hard. Sometimes I find myself addressing an issue that was not the presenting problem, but it turns out to be right on target. My unconscious and my intuition seem to take over my conscious attention to the problem as 'spoken' by the counselee. What [s]he is 'saying' is not really what the problem is because it is too painful to talk about, or they're too embarrassed. When I yield to these unconscious processes, I myself feel 'whole' because I'm unified with more of my Self, and the words I convey seem guided by surgical precision to the problem. I am usually thanked more profusely by the counselee at the end of this kind of session (and this is particularly poignant if we're talking about 12 to 14 year olds!)

Only by offering a concrete example can I discribe how an Enlightened action differs from an unenlightened, newbie, book-learning, student counselor action (as I used to be). Wisdom sometimes manifests through a culling of wider functions of my psyche. As Jung would describe it, it is the Transcendent Function which over-rides my ego during this process. I am not an Enlightened man in India where the role of Guru exists, nor am I a wizened Taoist sage, if that image is what one is looking for. Neither am I comparing myself to a Neem Karolie or a Lao-Tzu, but rather, the comparison is of a pre-Awakened versus a post-Awakened White middle-class American male, in whom the "seeds" of "the Word" [Logos] took root, rather than being choked by the 'weeds of worldliness,' or dried up in a spiritually barren soul [psyche]. In psychological talk, Enlightened action occurs when the Transcendent Function rules. One can "Make straight the way of the LORD" (John 1:23), by the Yogic 'Yamas' and 'Niyamas' (which correspond nicely to the Ten Commandments as well), but one cannot force "the way of the LORD" despite one's most ardent hope for full-time Transcendence (or, Enlightenment).

I've had my share of synchronicities, petitionary prayers granted, mystical ecstasy, visionary states, precognitive dreams and 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head' telepathy, but these experiences have authority only for me, and they do not define me to others as being Enlightened - which is a good thing! Beware anyone who holds him or herself out in such a way as to say 'I am Enlightened, and you are not!'

Peace.

-MtG


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6658557 - 03/11/07 02:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The word is beginning to lose any meaning for me.:crazy2::thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6658654 - 03/11/07 03:36 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

in the bin for me too

back to bumper sticker comments, less stress and strain on the brain


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6658720 - 03/11/07 03:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

For me, enlightenment exists in remaining aware of the "pause" between event and response.

In this spacious region, it is possible to choose amongst courses of action which are either more congruent or less congruent. This seems to relate to impeccability, appreciation and awareness of the present moment, right-action, lovingkindness, etc... as none of these courses of action are likely to arise from "knee-jerk" reactions to events.

Without continued awareness of this "pause," our actions are likely to degenerate into fight-flight-fuck brain stem spasms.

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Veritas]
    #6658810 - 03/11/07 04:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

taking pause works for me
brain stem spams are great too


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Veritas]
    #6658949 - 03/11/07 05:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

LOL! Well said Veritas! Preeminently conscious moments versus unconscious moments - reflective versus reactive.

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6659082 - 03/11/07 05:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

good precis mark-t.a.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6659391 - 03/11/07 07:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I adhere to what I call the "Wile E. Coyote model of enlightenment." Wile E Coyote never actually catches the roadrunner, but he is defined by its pursuit. So it is with enlightenment.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6660008 - 03/11/07 10:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I like that.:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6660440 - 03/12/07 01:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

that little puff of smoke afterwards was so rewarding


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6660549 - 03/12/07 03:07 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I believe enlightenment to be a state that a person could reach for a brief moment. Possible experiencing reaching this state several times in one's life but it would never be permanent.

What is this state? I really don't know, because I don't believe I actually obatined it yet. I think it requires practice and training. Becoming egoless. Releasing all fear. I also believe that Morihei Ueshiba was one such person who had obtained a state of enlightenment. Unlike Buddha or Jesus his life is pretty well documented. There are also stories of him displaying super human or natural powers. However, I think it only appears this way to those ignorant to all the laws and operations of the universe.

There was no psychadelic drug use. But meditation and deep breathing excercises were taught to be praticed daily.

Here's a english translated quote:

“The Art of Peace is medicine for a sick world. There is evil and disorder in the world because people have forgotten that all things emanate from one source. Return to that source and leave behind all self-centered thoughts, petty desires, and anger. Those who are possessed by nothing possess everything.”

here's some links to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRg70LHrMsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwQ3HZgz32Q

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #6660641 - 03/12/07 05:18 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

aikido is the only smart way to fight.
the oncoming energy is redirected.
I agree you can be enlightened over and over, but I can't see it as a state, or stasis of any kind, the dance is too complex and natural to be stasis.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6661218 - 03/12/07 12:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"Inner silence works from the moment you begin to accrue it. What the old sorcerers were after was the final dramatic, end result of reaching that individual threshold of silence. Some very talented practitioners need only a few minutes of silence to reach that coveted goal. Others, less talented, need long periods of silence, perhaps more than one hour of quietude,before they reach the desired result. The desired result is what the old sorcerers called "stopping the world", the moment when everything around us ceases to be what it's always been. This is the moment when sorcerers return to the TRUE nature of man. The old sorcerers always called it "total freedom"."

I'm just going to say that what I am shooting for is impeccability, and if anyone thinks that enlightenment is the same or not, whatever, thats great, it has no bearing on me. If impeccability and enlightenment aren't the same, I have no use for enlightenment, and thus, drop it.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6661244 - 03/12/07 12:39 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Using power to act with intent to engage obstacles as if it were my last battle on earth. No regret. No talking about or thinking 'what if'. Calculation and execution with a goal. Abandon. Pure energy. It is not a matter of what the goal is, but the intent and power of the warrior who wishes to obtain the goal. Impeccability.

Impeccability, I feel, must be enough for me, for impeccability has heart, and enlightenment, as most define it, does not. It is too cold, and too desolate and full of pride. So as best as words can describe it, I do not believe enlightenment to be a humanly achievable state. Humans are by nature perfect, it is the definition of perfection that is flawed.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6661306 - 03/12/07 01:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

being good is good
being impeccable, can be obsessive or good depending on attitude.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6661331 - 03/12/07 01:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

It's being your own absolute reality.


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Now pick me up night and whirlwind and let me ride with you to peace of mind and nothing to rebel...

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: GrimTroll]
    #6661352 - 03/12/07 01:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

in places without absolutes, that might be hard


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6661521 - 03/12/07 02:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
being good is good
being impeccable, can be obsessive or good depending on attitude.




Being obsessive is not impeccable. You must be thinking of something a little less profound. Like addiction.:grin:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6661769 - 03/12/07 03:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Being impeccable is being impeccable. Impeccability can not be if you are obsessed with being impeccable. You can't be a warrior, for example, by saying you are a warrior. It is the same with impeccability. Being obsessed with impeccability does not mean you are impeccable. It means you don't really grasp impeccability at all. Or, perhaps, you know what it is, but don't actually implement it. The warrior is defined by acting, not by thinking about acting. One who obsesses, therefore, is not a warrior, and cannot be impeccable.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6661857 - 03/12/07 03:42 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

the sense of being transcendently excellent.
i think bill and ted had it right,
not too christian.
waste no time with absolutes - go right to excellent.


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Re: bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6661863 - 03/12/07 03:43 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, "be excellent to each other" is profound advice.

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Re: bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: Veritas]
    #6661956 - 03/12/07 04:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

love thy neighbor as you would love yourself


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6662003 - 03/12/07 04:19 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

What would the point of such enlightenment be?


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: bill and ted's excellent adventure. [Re: shizznit]
    #6662021 - 03/12/07 04:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shizznit said:
love thy neighbor as you would love yourself



Would ? WOULD ? :eek:
Do it ! Love YOU ! Now and immediately ! You are the one to love YOU ! Now now now now now ! :laugh:
Only then, you can treat your neighbor the same way :grin:
:heart: :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6662214 - 03/12/07 05:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
What would the point of such enlightenment be?



ahh, you have learned to ask koans
someone smack this guy with a stick!


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6662278 - 03/12/07 05:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
What would the point of such enlightenment be?



ahh, you have learned to ask koans
someone smack this guy with a stick!


to what End?

(I think maybe I'll get this one later?)

:confused:


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Lion]
    #6662665 - 03/12/07 07:35 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

beginning
middle
end
an emphasis on end is directed to extreme, or absolute.
this is about totality and what is between ledger columns and lines.
what end are you from?
do you need more end or more between?


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6662767 - 03/12/07 08:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
beginning
middle
end
an emphasis on end is directed to extreme, or absolute.
this is about totality and what is between ledger columns and lines.
what end are you from?
do you need more end or more between?


as always, that kind of depends on what happens. the limbo is not such a bad dance; takes a toll on the spine though


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6667746 - 03/14/07 06:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
aikido is the only smart way to fight.
the oncoming energy is redirected.
I agree you can be enlightened over and over, but I can't see it as a state, or stasis of any kind, the dance is too complex and natural to be stasis.




Being a state, does not mean that it is some kind of stasis. The only things that 'cease' are the afflictive obscurations and non-afflictive knowledge obscurations that prevent our natural 'state' from manifesting its unlimited potential for wisdom and compassion.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/14/07 09:08 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6668126 - 03/14/07 09:48 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

but those things do not cease in themselves,
the activity of seeing through them becomes more natural.
the idea of cessation is an extreme or limit. A bounding edge. something which like any mathematical line needs infinitesimal thinness at the incomprehensible extent beyond which .....

if you examine the issues about nirvana (an extreme or limit easily misconstrued as heaven, but also unfortunately considered as the "ultimate") and the bodhisatva way (unlimited but also free of ultimates) you will see where I am coming from.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6668293 - 03/14/07 10:37 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
but those things do not cease in themselves,
the activity of seeing through them becomes more natural.
the idea of cessation is an extreme or limit. A bounding edge. something which like any mathematical line needs infinitesimal thinness at the incomprehensible extent beyond which .....

if you examine the issues about nirvana (an extreme or limit easily misconstrued as heaven, but also unfortunately considered as the "ultimate") and the bodhisatva way (unlimited but also free of ultimates) you will see where I am coming from.




Well no, its not extreme, because it is 'the middle way' (based on four noble truths of suffering, cessation, the path, and the result) free from extreme views. To deny cessation, is to deny what the Buddha taught that is found in all the traditions

The Bodhisattva manifests from a state free not only from afflictive obscurations such as the Nirvana state realized by an Arhat, but from a state also free from non-afflictive knowledge obscurations. This means that although suffering has ceased, the Bodhisattva, being free from knowledge obscurations cognizes the limitless suffering of sentient beings, and thus manifests compassionate activity accordingly.

Nirvana is not a place, but a state of realization in which all suffering has ceased. I don't know why you are trying to say i confuse it with an idea of heaven, or some such place. That is ridiculous.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/14/07 11:36 AM)

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6700499 - 03/22/07 07:36 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Process:
Grow a plant. Cut it down. Hopefully the root structure is developed enough to support new growth... Grow a bigger plant cut it down. Grow another... Trim that shit banzai style. Just the way you like.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702013 - 03/23/07 05:05 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

just imagine nirvana as a state not a place, ok
Quote:

Sinbad said towards the end of some complex sentences:.....
Nirvana is not a place, but a state of realization in which all suffering has ceased. I don't know why you are trying to say i confuse it with an idea of heaven, or some such place. That is ridiculous.




I only want to mention that a penchant for simpler words may entangle you less; you can use buddhism to refine your inner simplicity, but not your language.

Actually using all these buddhist words together to make sentences is really not the purpose for which they were invented.

each one is a koan or poem. part of the delivery of teaching to a group who were receptive, or later coined in commentary.

what i quoted above, from sinbad, is very precious.

here, the mind has sorted and sifted through buddhist concepts
rearranged them using language and attitude, and tacked on
"That is ridiculous."

there is nothing wrong with it - we learn more from the child within than from the sage.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702170 - 03/23/07 07:00 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The sentences and words that i used are really not that complex for someone who has a good grasp of the English language, and Buddhist concepts. (as you said that you have studied the abhidharma, i thought that you would be able to understand).

As for all buddhist words and concepts being koans, umm, maybe in Zen traditions that is somewhat true (does not apply to when they are learning sutras, meditation etc), but for a blanket statement thats pretty absurd and does not apply. What i found ridiculous was the insinuation that i equate the buddhist state of Nirvana with some heavenly abode.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 07:11 AM)

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702550 - 03/23/07 09:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

ok for now
will respond later with a diagram in a new thread
hold that thought


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702553 - 03/23/07 09:44 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

As long as it isn't the same diagram that Markos has shown me. :lol:

I think i get what you mean about Buddhist concepts being koans, as in you reflect on them. But koans, in the Zen tradition, because it has incorporated some Confucianism aspects into its practical application, actually have a slightly different, more direct purpose. Not all dharma is transmitted that way.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 10:01 AM)

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702589 - 03/23/07 10:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

dharma is reality
teaching in words is live
I will give it to you in a diagram soon as I get home and photo my diary
it has to do with one-way-only-words

words that work one way in public
or one way in private
as opposed to words that you may easily construct sentences out of for conversations.
buddha used many one way transmissions to the attendees of his talks.
this exhalted the acolytes and was recorded
the recorded words have to be understood as experiences not as dogmas.
we can learn from them, but recycling the words is an act that gets emptier and emptier

like this
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6702024#Post6702024


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702619 - 03/23/07 10:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Buddha also used many constructive sentences in response to his attendance. At one time he just held up a flower, and only one person out of hundreds understood. There are many dharma gates and many ways of transmission, as there are many sentient beings with differering capacities for understanding dharma as it is.

The recorded words are to be understood, first intellectually, then reflected upon to discover provisional meaning, then meditated upon to experience the definitive meaning in our existence. In a Zen way of course, koans are used to directly cut the root of conceptual thinking, this is the quality of the method. Words are nothing but fingers pointing, we should not mistake them for the sky itself.

Some words are living communication of the dharma, in that pith instructions can be understood in experience when transmitted by a teacher directly. But the words remain on the page and disappear like echo's when spoken. We must go beyond words.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 11:13 AM)

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702697 - 03/23/07 10:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

how do you know?


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702723 - 03/23/07 11:11 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

All teachers since the time of the Buddha who, have followed his path, have said that this is how the dharma can be understood. First by learning, then by reflecting, then by meditating to discover in our experience. Of course, you can intuitively discover dependent ingratiation, emptiness etc through your own individual effort in meditation, but it has become so much easier since the Buddha has given us so many wonderful teachings and methods to work with our condition.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 11:43 AM)

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702824 - 03/23/07 11:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

that is what all teachers have said?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702842 - 03/23/07 11:55 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Teachers, who followed the Buddhist path, since the time of the Buddha have learned, reflected and meditated. So this is what they teach there students to do, obviously.

Even with Zen, you listen to what the teacher says, reflect on it, and then meditate accordingly, else how can one have realization?


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6702918 - 03/23/07 12:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

then how is it different from studying biology or french?


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6702929 - 03/23/07 12:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Its different because studying Buddhism is the same as studying ourselves. The subject to learn is about our condition. We reflect on the implications of what we have learned, and how it applies to us in our condition, then we meditate according to the methods given to have that realization precisely (going beyond intellectual knowledge).

If you seriously can't figure out how studying Buddhism is different from studying french and biology, then you have a lot more study, reflection and meditation to do red.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6703076 - 03/23/07 01:18 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

the only subject you will ever behold is your death


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703081 - 03/23/07 01:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

buddha is the object of breath

study my wake

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703106 - 03/23/07 01:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
the only subject you will ever behold is your death




Oh contre, death is the dissolution of the subject. :grin:


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6703743 - 03/23/07 04:14 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

can you conceive that?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703746 - 03/23/07 04:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Conceptions die also, as the subject maintains them. :grin:


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703751 - 03/23/07 04:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

how will you know this object when there is no subject?
can you kill many?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703785 - 03/23/07 04:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

What object? :what:


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6703815 - 03/23/07 04:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

that mans last breath,
or the planet that took it


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SIKE

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6703843 - 03/23/07 05:04 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The subject is still conscious of the last breath, i.e not dead yet, duh.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6704069 - 03/23/07 07:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

how can a subject be conscious if you say it exists independently of the living?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6704079 - 03/23/07 07:04 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

A subject does not exist independently, period.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #6708029 - 03/24/07 11:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sinbad sez:Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state.

Does anyone agree with this? I must say this seems a highly unlikely human state to occupy.





I wanted to add that our natural state is entirely relative,
we are never 100% sober,

so as far as a natural state being unlikely to occupy it goes both ways,

to feel the moment is natural as well as to flow with,
we aren't returning to any state,
nor are we departing


my 2c


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I'm just passing thru u

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6710662 - 03/25/07 07:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

just like consciousness?


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I have considered such matters.

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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6710669 - 03/25/07 07:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Consciousness has no independent, self-existence, no. It is dependent upon causes and conditions to support its temporary arising, just like everything else (check the sig)

P.S. Are you always stoned when you come on here? :lol:


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6710695 - 03/25/07 07:35 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

How can you know this without a permanent object and a temporary subject?

What is that thing that is depenent upon nothing depending on?



and, no.


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6710786 - 03/25/07 07:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Why does either subject or object have to be permanent? Both are temporary arisings. Neither arise without a cause.

You're trying to spin my head with those circular questions. :lol:


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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6710866 - 03/25/07 08:22 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Why does either subject or object have to be permanent? Both are temporary arisings. Neither arise without a cause.

You're trying to spin my head with those circular questions. :lol:




It is not either/or.  Only one is temporary. 

You are talking about comprehension before there can be such a thing.  Something must exist to be filled.  Naturally our minds are filled with thoughts, but what fills our bodies except time?  It is Brahman that is all.


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: Cherk]
    #6711507 - 03/25/07 11:22 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I would question the methods only. Seems as though 'the end times' has to come on a personal level first and foremost. I really feel that operating on old programs won't produce enlightenment. Maybe just some perverted western capitalistic endarkenment. When you collapse the house of cards (ego) for good is when the path is most clear. Otherwise you're still thinking as a human.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6712055 - 03/26/07 05:07 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I am looking at nothing to sink my teeth into
and it is good.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: Revisiting Enlightenment. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6729336 - 03/30/07 07:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That was a good thread and worthy read.

Two labels were applied to my own experience by those who witnessed it; the first was "enlightened" the second was "schizophrenic". The irony is, I didn't know what either of those words meant nor did I know how to Be either of those things -- I had not been on a formal spiritual path prior to that experience and I had never before encountered anyone that (as far as I knew) was "schizophrenic".

So, I went looking for answers and eventually found myself tossing out both descriptors as based on their limitations. It seems to me that no one in their right mind would want to be this thing called "enlightened" because by accepting that label you are placing a box around your actions; you are limiting yourself.

Still, for every time there is a season...

If it was possible for a crawling body to identify walking as something one wished to do, they might take that upon themselves to become that thing -- a walker. This would be their goal, their aspiration, they would study and practice it and quite possibly, find themselves walking one day. But after many days of walking, they would no longer find it suited their purposes to be "a walker". Walking was just something they did, along with many other "walkers". The label fades to the background, fades to unimportance, falls away. It's just nothing of importance, and this is how it should be. Besides, there's still running and flying to tackle.

"There are no enlightened people, there is only enlightened action."

I can't recall now who said that, but I like it.



Music of the Hour: Like A Stone


.

Edited by spiritualemerg (03/31/07 07:28 AM)

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