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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: v00d00chi1d]
    #8237979 - 04/04/08 11:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

... I thought we WERE jedis.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: deCypher]
    #8238019 - 04/04/08 12:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

were pfftt....ARE!


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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: deCypher]
    #8238122 - 04/04/08 12:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think its not such a good word for awakening as it implies like there's going to be some "wow im fully enlightened" moment like the Buddha supposedly had. But its also a good word for awakening as the buddhist teachings on the innate mind of clear light has a sense of illumination about it, all realised awakened beings seem to be associated with light in some way.

During meditation i'm sure many of us have had moments of enlightenment/illumination where everything becomes luminously clear.

Some call the coming age of aquarius/golden age "the age of light"

Dogen

"to be enlightened is to be one with all things"

Simple profound and true.

Edited by Chronic7 (04/04/08 01:54 PM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: Chronic7]
    #8238483 - 04/04/08 02:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My ego is never satisfied. Cede "enlightenment", and ego will just find something else to bitch about. If it's about pleasing others, why? If a person doesn't want to wrap their mind around something, they're not going to. Putting it in a wrapper they can identify with is nice, but they'll just find something else to bitch about, unless they are open to understanding, in which case there was no need for a wrapper.

To me, seeking enlightenment, seeking god, all the same. Is full enlightenment possible? It seems wrong to believe it's possible, but it also seems wrong to believe it's not possible. Perhaps both of those statements are wrong? LOL. I choose to believe it "might" be possible, but as time goes by, it seems the possibility is less important, and the reality of the current moment is all that matters.

IOW, looking across the field, trying to use the mind to discover something that may be found through experience, endlessly turning it over, doesn't seem to be the way, though it may all be a part of the process. Is full enlightenment possible, is perhaps the wrong question. In fact, all questions seem to be wrong. But, within that word, there is always something to be touched on in the present moment. Drop the question, and find some meaning. Consciousness discovers the question, and consciousness destroys the question.

Personally, I prefer "enlightenment" over "god". Much harder to twist the meaning, without it smelling like bullshit, but perhaps that's just the view I get being surrounded by an institution which has wrangled the true meaning for it's own purposes for so long that most people no longer question it. I can't remember the last time someone told me enlightenment will strike me down and send me to a fiery place for all of eternity.

Yes, my ego seems to be rotten and corrupted, and the desire for enlightenment is just another desire. But I believe it points to something pure. Arrogance in the phrase "I am enlightened"? How about "I am enlightenment."?

I am god also. Simply means, I am that which I seek. I suppose it could be taken as arrogant, IF a person believes it means I have something they don't, I am "above" humanity, I am BETTER. But, what if it simply acknowledges that I am not "below" humanity, I am not inferior, I am not forsaken by my self? Then it becomes a simple statement of self-esteem. Those without self-esteem will always see it as arrogant, unless they believe they can profit from it in some way. So I say, use your own words. If someone has a problem with it... fuck 'em.

Oh, the arrogance.:D


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


“Have we reached the ultimate stage of absurdity where some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, while other people are not held responsible for what they themselves are doing today?” - Thomas Sowell

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: Rahz]
    #8238612 - 04/04/08 02:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I dig it.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8243728 - 04/05/08 06:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DoomsDayJesus said:
Quote:

DimensionX said:
Would claiming to be enlightened be one of the most arrogant things you could do? Doesn't it mean you have transcended the rest of humanity?




Thats right, its also even counter to what the word usually implies. Why would someone who is truly enlightened feel the need to announce it? Someone who is enlightened I would imagine does not eat and is in a self induced vegetable, saliva running down his jaw and blind because he hasn't blinked since his awakening. Just a thought




Uh, Enlightenment is not exactly catatonic schizophrenia. Your description suggests that you are looking at some extraneous outer forms of a state like Nirvikalpa Samadhi which sometimes manifests bodily rigidity and immobility. The higher Sahaj Samadhi is 'the natural state' of Enlightenment and it does not manifest in psychophysically bizarre ways. I am 'more Enlightened' than I used to be and my comparison can only be made between two forms of 'me,' not in comparison with anyone else. This is the crux of any discussion on Enlightenment. It needs to remain within the subjective field of experience.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineDoomsDayJesus
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8244060 - 04/05/08 07:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think my problem with the word is that it isn't able to be universally defined. When I hear someone talking about enlightenment I immediately associate that with coming to the end of all possible understanding. This is probably just a personal hangup of mine and I am projecting my distaste of religious practices to the psychedelic experience.

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8244063 - 04/05/08 07:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

DoomsDayJesus said:
Quote:

DimensionX said:
Would claiming to be enlightened be one of the most arrogant things you could do? Doesn't it mean you have transcended the rest of humanity?




Thats right, its also even counter to what the word usually implies. Why would someone who is truly enlightened feel the need to announce it? Someone who is enlightened I would imagine does not eat and is in a self induced vegetable, saliva running down his jaw and blind because he hasn't blinked since his awakening. Just a thought




Uh, Enlightenment is not exactly catatonic schizophrenia. Your description suggests that you are looking at some extraneous outer forms of a state like Nirvikalpa Samadhi which sometimes manifests bodily rigidity and immobility. The higher Sahaj Samadhi is 'the natural state' of Enlightenment and it does not manifest in psychophysically bizarre ways. I am 'more Enlightened' than I used to be and my comparison can only be made between two forms of 'me,' not in comparison with anyone else. This is the crux of any discussion on Enlightenment. It needs to remain within the subjective field of experience.




A. we are jedis dont let them jedi mind trick you out if it.

B.well i dunno man its all about awareness. and undying awareness of self and others. If your susceptable to intoxication in general. it spooks people out when they are drunk and make a comment deep from soul and state the nature of their mind cause their soul knows its wrong then the next day say i was just drunk.
those people tend not to have enlightenment.

enlightenment is seeing things as they are clearly and once thats achieved delusions no-longer exist and in social interactions others might get pissed that your aware and they are fully aware of whats going on.

you know someone is not enlightened when they tell you to that being cruel to people is ok but then when you turn that on them they complain.

or maybe im more so relating this to wholesomeness. my veiw of enlightment is wholesome mindful life and the spread of that


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8244395 - 04/05/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DoomsDayJesus said:
We all live in the west and using a term like enlightenment I believe takes away from the legitimacy of what we are doing, gaining new insights about ourselves and our environment. Instead of giving the community the impression we think that we are Jedis i suggest we call it for what it actually represents, insights and new interpretations.

The word enlightenment also implies all of your theories and assumptions are definitive. I am certainly not trying to take away from what benefits psychoactive drugs provide as they have been invaluable to me.




I would love to see that word dropped and replaced by something relevant. I don't think so however, most favor fantasy. We want to be Jedi knights and not just men and women.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #8244514 - 04/05/08 09:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

another term could be collective sheding of light.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #8244515 - 04/05/08 09:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

another term could be collective sheding of light.



--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8245159 - 04/06/08 12:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think this is insightful of you. The Psychedelic Experience obviously DOES offer a glimpse of Enlightenment for those who are open to the transcendence of their constricted views and emotional repressions. The Psychedelic Experience is not the problem - it sheds Light. The problem occurs when individual egos try to encompass the Experience within the egoic mind. I have a friend from childhood who only did this with psychedelics. He would only confess to me that "they're a lot of fun," and nothing more. He would trip on acid, walk the hills of San Francisco with a tripping buddy, stopping in numerous bars to drink beers, and just devolve the psychospiritual to physical stamina. He also confessed that his ego was "the size of Montana." Another friend with whom I used to trip as a youth would do the same. I once walked a dozen miles with him and when I sat down in a field to close my eyes, he threatened to leave! No inner-directed in-sight for him!

Both of the aforementioned friends had religious hangups - Greek Orthodox and Catholicism respectively, and both had inordinate attachments (IMO) to their mothers and to the religiosity of their mothers who could not possibly conceive of the Psychedelic Experience yet had stifling (IMO) influences on their sons' ability to Individuate from the maternal influence. Their religions, and the women (both non-psychedelic) whom they married - who were vehicles of both their religious mores and their mothers who coveyed those religious mores, helped prevent that the Psychedelic Experience be taken seriously.

The opposite effect is to have one's ego pathologically inflated to the extent that a 'messianic complex' arises from the unconscious, and one walks around with airs of inflated egoic superiority - the opposite of Enlightened humility and stillness of desire for fame, power, influence, etc.

There are legitimate spiritual practices which help one to maintain the perception of the Psychedelic Experience. The Buddhist Dzogchen, as translated down to the average person by Eckhart Tolle is a prime example - to become aware of Rigpa - Pure Consciousness - in each moment of life - is a legitimate antidote to the culture-bound influences that the multitudes allow themselves to be programmed, like cell-phone addiction and multi-tasking. These modes-of-being are diametrically opposite the Zen-like simplicity of real Enlightened living.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8245575 - 04/06/08 06:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well we really do have to eliminate the term Enlightenment if Mark - who is an example to everyone - continues to use it to suggest that Enlightenment is a state.

it is not a state, and no state that exists is enlightenment.

states of mind relate to the mind's resonance or trailings or emotional intensity or dream depth or psychedelic enhancement.

Enlightenment is not that.
those states of mind are like how much fat is on the body.

Enlightenment is not about fat or how much energy exists at any moment or how that energy changes to another energy (all the yogas may suggest that this type of control or experience is related to enlightenments of various sorts and that is false).

Also the crossover of Enlightenment with wisdom is only just tolerable.

What is refered to in the annals when Enlightenment is spoken of, is a shifted paradigm to a simpler and more dignified WAY of being. I would encourage everyone who is interested in enlightenment to pay attention to the term "way", middle way, the road, etc. all metaphors to something that cannot fit into words, because it relates not to a map of life, but to life itself.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8245584 - 04/06/08 06:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment?




Hell no. Then I wouldn't have a word to describe myself with.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8246377 - 04/06/08 12:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I see the usefulness of certain 'states' of consciousness as being able to simplify the ordinary states of mind which are a jumble of competing thoughts and feelings, memories and associations, sensations and emotions. For me however, Enlightenment entails the simultaneous awareness of the Indivisible (the Emptiness-Fullness, the ONE) and the mundanities of life. The Middle Way certainly applies here to this simultaneous awareness of Eternity and Temporality (Nirvana and Samsara if you will). Moreover, the multi-tasking multitudes are one-sidedly caught up and identified with the samsaric mind. Their preoccupation is not with this Middle Way approach to both aspects of Reality but exclusively with the physical-social aspects. The opposite of this materialistic and spiritually unconscious mode of being-in-the-world is very aptly referred to as Enlightenment.

If one were to ask me, I would say at this point of my understanding, that a one-sided attachment to non-ordinary states of consciousness is likewise as erroneous as the one-sided attachment to worldliness. This is the revision that the Buddha made of the Hindu Yoga systems that were prevalent at his time, and I think his insight equally applies today. I too thought for many years that one had to be living full time in Sahaj Samadhi or Sat Chit Ananda, after the example of Neem Karolie Baba of BE HERE NOW fame, in order to 'Be' Enlightened. It now seems that it is a matter of Being aware of the Formless Ground simultaneously with all of our moment-to-moment activities with form. Subsequently, with this Realization, the need to be preoccupied with exalted 'states' of Consciousness became less and less important. Sitting meditation and frequent Entheogenic Excursions became less important to my understanding of Enlightenment.

To sum up, my bias is still toward Formlessness, which pegs me in society more as a spiritual human than a materialistic human. It is not a matter of any 'attainment' of an exalted 'state,' it is a matter of values - Realization of Reality having priority over the mere accumulation and display of material objects or status-laden experiences. This one value determines much of how one lives one's life in the world, and why, just as the materialist's valuation of materiality and status determines how [s]he lives in the world and why. Once 'Meaning' has ontological status over the Freudian "pleasure principle" and over the Adlerian "Will to Power," and "Social Interest," a trans-personal center has been established (it's no longer all about me, what I have and what I do). It's then a Maslowian "Being-Cognition" which has transcendence at heart. That is Enlightened living, if one were to ask me, that is.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8246544 - 04/06/08 01:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Mark you are steeped, immersed, recognized and over educated in this area, and I really don't intend to argue but -
State of mind and state of consciousness are one thing unless you have bought into yet another believers leap of faith in which mind and consciousness are separate.

(there are hundreds of hokey diagrammes of such separations going back through the middle ages, Egypt and ancient America)

Western literature before the 18th century refered to "enlightenment" as a kind of wisdom and equated it with arts and science - culture and respectibility, but I am certain that is not the kind of enlightenment that people on this board are interested in.

Eastern literature, however, refers to Enlightenment as an attribute of the "enlightened" beings, arahants, bodhisatvas gurus and meditating monks etc. and it is clearly distinguished from any states ( state involves a static - formed - shaped - produced - achieved stasis or equilibrium).

In Buddhism, Enlightenment, is a way of being that is natural, yet spiritual at the same time. It is the constantly changing path that is experienced and followed while living. it is neither static nor in equilibrium, and it is very subject to distraction. Enlightened beings recover from distraction and resume their path without self recrimination or getting mad at some one else.

Almost any attempt to encapsulate the eastern concept of Enlightenment with words is absurd. A person needs to discover their own path and work with that on an ongoing basis - ergo one is never actually "enlightened" except by some relative reference to some previous moment in passing. it is neither disputable nor dispute worthy.

your second paragraph is interesting, and your last paragraph illustrates spiritual materialism. (yes, one may become attached to the idea of formlessness, and completely forget to brush his teeth).


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8246846 - 04/06/08 02:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with everything you wrote and read it as a pretty good synopsis of my own position. I do not see where you are getting from me the notion of Enlightenment as a 'steady state.' Enlightenment refers to the subjective 'pole' of the subject-object dualism that Enlightenment (as a process) seeks to transcend. The Ultimate Reality strikes me as being Eternal (or, conversely, as Eternal Being). It is true that the Greek archetype of changeless Being does seem to color my thinking/writing, but there is this Shiva-Shakti, Being-Becoming, Creator-Creation paradox about Ultimate Reality no matter how we try to formulate our thoughts. It is dynamism with a still center, yet that still center is everywhere.

I thought that your notion of "distraction" was an interesting highlight of a matter-of-fact that I tend to overlook while still having to deal with it. Your position makes it a rather significant part of the Middle Way. Interesting and worthy of some contemplation on my part.

And, right we're not talking of the Age of Enlightenment which was all about reason, as humanity in the West began to emerge from a more irrational stage of human development.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8248606 - 04/06/08 09:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:

Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment?




Hell no. Then I wouldn't have a word to describe myself with.




In your case you have become much more lightened.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: krin]
    #8250342 - 04/07/08 11:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krin said:
Just stop worrying about it, measure your life by substance.

If we didnt produce anything; thoughts, creations, feelings, life would be just a big shitfest of greyness and delusion.
Dancing around a word throwing slight variations at it, that's a waste of time and effort.




Exactly.

Don't get hung up on words. They are only pointers; they can only bring us part of the way to understanding anything. Language has limited usefulness when we are talking about understandings that cannot be wholly communicated in a conceptual manner.

If you drop 'enlightenment', then you have to pick up another equally inadequate label to refer to the same thing. Pick whatever arrangement of consonants and vowels pleases you; it doesn't change a thing.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Can We Drop the Word Enlightenment? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8250618 - 04/07/08 01:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
If you drop 'enlightenment', then you have to pick up another equally inadequate label to refer to the same thing.




This isn't true. Enlightenment, no different than the word g*d, is a word that requires elaboration as to what it means. There are several instances of this occurring within this thread, already saw it tonight in another thread, and it should be no surprise that each personal definition exists on a wide spectrum of different meaning. I've never understood why it is necessary to use such a word to describe some aspect of reality or one's experience if the word itself doesn't convey consensual meaning. Shouldn't the inevitable explanation as to what the individual meant in using the word simply stand on its own?

My favorite is "g*d is just reality", "karma is just cause and effect", etc. etc. etc. I personally choose to stick with "reality is reality". :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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