Icelander said:

I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from.


If you really believe this then you haven't been around.

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"In some situations it may be the appropriate thing to do to challenge tightly held beliefs and notions by violating cultural norms and insulting people. But most of the time, I think the appropriate thing to do is to respect that people have boundaries that aren't always rational, and to keep these in mind when acting and communicating; not just completely disregarding others and only considering your own wants and drives."

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And WHO will determine all that? Won't that be vitiated anyways? Someone always ends up with something they didn't want, the "offender" can also be "hurt" because he's being interdicted to express himself. Is it preferable to encourage the victimhood mentality?
You are basically saying that MY view is biased and using the same logic so is yours. However, he should care that we hurt someone when we fart in church.

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Couldn't this also be said about what you said? They're just personal standards as well.

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I am sorry, what you say just doesn't click with me and your motivations are far from being reasonable.

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I am not TAKING AWAY anyone's freedom when I speak, but they are taking away mine when they enforce a law telling me that I am not allowed to do it.

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Should you have to give up taking drugs or meditating because you hurt your family or Christian neighbor? How do you determine:

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And WHO will determine all that? Won't that be vitiated anyways?

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Is it preferable to encourage the victimhood mentality?

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You are basically saying that MY view is biased and using the same logic so is yours.

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dblaney said:

Well if conforming is the only approach towards mutual respect, then I agree. I don't think you can work towards mutual respect and tolerancewithout being respectful and tolerant yourself, and I don't see how purposely disregarding their own beliefs and attitudes is respectful. So I think you need to be respectful and from that foundation of kindness and respect work towards mutual respect and tolerance for everyone.

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Exactly! When you take away all the standards...yours, mine, religious fundamentalists...then there are no ideas of how people should be, just people being the way they are.

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Yes, exactly.
So why should I refrain myself from making any comments that could "hurt" someone?

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My motivations are far from being reasonable? What motivations are you talking about?

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Well what you earlier said. That sometimes it is best to take to consideration other people's beliefs and stop making comments that might offend them... because that's how peace is sustained.
I am sorry, this just doesn't make any sense.
I refuse to give up my freedom of expression just to support emotional wanking which leads nowhere.
Also, like I earlier said, this is not how peace is sustained. This indulgence will make people like these more and more demanding and it's a place where I don't wanna be.

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Speech can be a very powerful thing. Ultimately, no one can stop you or me from saying what we are going to say. I don't necessarily agree that laws should be made that prohibit people saying certain things, but I do think that people should use their freedom of speech wisely and compassionately.

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Depends on what sort of hurt we're talking about here. If someone became physically violent after taking drugs, then yes, perhaps they should have to give up taking drugs, if they are unable to use them responsibly. If someone's Christian neighbor is upset that they're practicing meditation then they should exercise wisdom and compassion and not meditate around them or talk about it around them That's pretty much common sense.

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You and I. However, there are circumstances where a governing body may need to intervene. For instance, if people are saying things that could lead to violence or are violating the rights of others, then there may need to be consequences.

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How would any of this be encouraging the victimhood mentality?

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I'd like to think that this awareness naturally brings forth compassion and kindness. I'm not talking about some dumb appearance of compassion that is in reality an attempt to satiate everyone and avoid displeasing people, but a compassion that accepts people's narrow perspectives as they are, and doesn't seek to hurt people.

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this whole cartoon issue is not about god
it's about race based humor
discrimination of cultures
and about responding to people's sensitivities.

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Seuss said:

Why do the violent oppressive societies have more right to oppression than free societies have to free expression?

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Seuss said:

> I don't mind refraining from doing something because I know someone will be distressed by it.

How do you feel about an international law that allows anybody that is offended by anything you say to have you prosecuted in international UN court and thrown in UN jail if found guilty of saying something that offended them? (Far fetched, but I am going for extremes here.)

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> I just think mutual respect can't be achieved by refraining from offending

What happens when the people that you are offending are offended by your very existence and lack of belief in their value system? What happens when people have no desire for mutal respect, but only want their way without compromise on their part? Still willing to give up your freedom of expression to help smooth over their hurt feelings?

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herelittlepiggy said:

The preacher at my church said the other day , "america is turning into a communist country".

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mushbaby said:

This seems to me to show that the Muslim fundamentalism is really becoming a force to reckon with. I think everyone is caving due to fear. They don't want the bombings that occur when these representations of Mohammed are published. That fear is insiduous. It's a worrisome response to this issue.

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Tchan909 said:

That's pretty disappointing. Free speech should respect religious beliefs? Then it's not fucking free speech, God-fucking-damn-it.

GJ UN.

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So why should I refrain myself from making any comments that could "hurt" someone?

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I refuse to give up my freedom of expression just to support emotional wanking which leads nowhere.
Also, like I earlier said, this is not how peace is sustained. This indulgence will make people like these more and more demanding and it's a place where I don't wanna be.

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No, words can't hurt. People's emotional attachment to them do so, and they do this to themselves.
I feel sorry that there are people unable to control their emotions, but this has nothing to do with me.

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People don't do violent things BECAUSE of talking, they do t because they WANT TO. It is true that talking about them is part of creating a plan, but it is not what creates the intention.

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I think it's pretty obvious. People who get offended by words consider themselves victims. By playing their game we encourage victimhood.

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I don't see how peace can be sustained through ignoring the sensitivities and feelings of others. Maybe there is some middle ground that we aren't seeing that's between the extremes of completely caving in to the wants and needs of everyone else and completely ignoring the wants and needs of everyone else.

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If you look at a 6 year old child who was just made fun of by her friends and tell her that she's upset not because of what her friends said but because of her emotional attachments, she's going to have no idea what you're talking about, and continue being upset.

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This is why I am calling on mental maturity.
A 6 year old doesn't have such a thing.
But I think that through proper education we can make even 6 year old understand the futility of getting offended. Yes, they are more fragile and children need a lot of love in order to develop a healthy mind set. Personally I would try to reason with my child and create a relationship based on understanding. If for example my child would be made fun of, I would try to explain him/her that life has moments where our nerves and vulnerabilities are being tested and that even thought I understand that they suffer, they will just have to learn to control their negative emotions, explore them with lucidity and look for compatible company. Also I would integrate lots of self control techniques for them to learn.
In some situations I was being made fun of as a child and I think all of us did. And guess what? I survived it and even learned from it. I never liked to whine and this has helped me to get over these much faster.

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Is the intelligent and compassionate thing to do here to just tell her that she is creating her own suffering and walk away, or is it to work with her towards making peace with herself and her friends?

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I don't see any contradiction between those two.
In fact these ideas are compatible with each other.
If she will be able to understand that those negative emotions are the result of her own mind (a mind which she can change in order to experience happiness), she can also make peace with herself and with her friends.

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Likewise, if YOU are making fun of a friend, and notice that they are becoming visibly upset and disturbed, is the intelligent and compassionate thing to do to dismiss their discomfort and hurt as products of their own creation from emotional attachments, or is it to stop making fun of them, apologize in order to create a climate of openness and forgiveness, and then when the time is right talk with them about it? Or is it something else entirely?

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Actually I have anded many "friendships" because of that. Because some of my friends got offended because I was too "blunt" with them.
I also lost many friendships because I tried to be "delicate" and not hurt their feelings and it was interpreted as an act of lie from my side. I reached the conclusion that honesty (no matter how harsh it is) is much more valuable than anything else. But through the same bluntness I have made some really cool and deep and lasting friendships. Which mean much more that lots of superficial ones.
So do we want a fake niceness or should we dare to aim for the real thing?

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The intention may be there, but in many cases, I'm not convinced that it would become manifest without the provocation of words and talking. If A is an angry and reactive person, and B happens to come along and jokingly poke fun of their race or something that they identify with, A very well may lash out and become violent. Would A have lashed out at B if B hadn't said anything? Probably not. Therefore, words and talking can be the direct cause of the manifestation of violence and conflict.

I agree though, that the intention would probably be there before any words. Which is why I think it's so important to create an environment that is open and compassionate, in order to deal with these underlying issues.

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If A is angry B should fear that and stop making jokes?
Apply this to every situation in our lives as humans and you get the bull shit that is called diplomacy.

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But by ignoring their game and how they feel, we also encourage victimhood (if they feel that they are being ignored or mocked in spite of their feelings, that could easily create a victim mentality).

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So do we want a fake niceness or should we dare to aim for the real thing?

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Fake niceness of course!

No, obviously the real thing. But I don't think there's any blanket statement here. Sometimes being blunt may be the best thing to do, other times, being quiet may be the best thing to do.

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If A is angry B should fear that and stop making jokes?
Apply this to every situation in our lives as hum...

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Momentarily, based on the experience I've gathered and the things I have learned, I have reached the conclusion that one reaches mental maturity when they stop getting offended.
And I think that people peace is the direct result of mental maturity, and that wars, confusions and mental hell are generated by tabus (and vice versa).

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through proper education we can make even 6 year old understand the futility of getting offended. Yes, they are more fragile and children need a lot of love in order to develop a healthy mind set. Personally I would try to reason with my child and create a relationship based on understanding

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In some situations I was being made fun of as a child and I think all of us did. And guess what? I survived it and even learned from it.

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