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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Icelander]
#8055437 - 02/22/08 08:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from.
If you really believe this then you haven't been around.
As long as the other (side) is, there will be no unity.
But globalization is trying to get rid of all those others.
Maybe someday we'll all be one, what a nightmare.
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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the cartoon issue is somewhat about god, somewhat about race-based humor, but a lot about segments of the world that are consistently threatened, marginalized and in other ways discredited (the first post's "dark ages" is an extension of this) being kicked on.
where i live there is an artist, Lars Vilks, who was inspired by the low-bred and infantile danish cartoons depicting Mohamed. Being an old man with his mainstay of creative inspiration welling from passive-aggressivity and provocation, he made a sketch of Mohamed as a dog-statue on a roundabout. These drawings were removed from the first place where they were exhibited, it was clear that they were removed due to fear of retribution. So, as you say, both sides are stupid, yet here all three sides are stupid: Lars Vilks, Muslims, and the museums representing mediocre humanist values and guilty morality. Other places then refused to show the drawings, except one, a Muslim organization, which agreed to present them publicly, but then withdrew their offer, censoring themselves although they were trying to play the well-adapted-new-Swedish-liberal-game. Then in August or so last year one of the drawings was published in the newspaper editorial about freedom of speech and censorship. Several Muslim organizations protested and several governments were irate and made threats...
Your cartoon suggestion may be undiplomatic and certainly would be funny to most of the world, and would make many Americans irate, frothing at the mouth and chanting nasty things about their persecution throughout the world... However, there is not only a diplomatic difference but an ontological difference in this. It's a similar difference between the 'nigger' and the 'cracker'. Are we supposed to feel sorry for the one called cracker? Is it just a matter of being undiplomatic, these names? ...to say that is to disregard (no, not to get lost in) the many spiritual, cultural, political, economical, ideological and power differences the words imply.
More of this type of cartoon, perhaps... but from what you wrote it seems you know, 'deep down', that this type of cartoon brings much illness when spread to the wrong host.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8057077 - 02/22/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So do we want a fake niceness or should we dare to aim for the real thing? 
Fake niceness of course! 
No, obviously the real thing. But I don't think there's any blanket statement here. Sometimes being blunt may be the best thing to do, other times, being quiet may be the best thing to do.
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If A is angry B should fear that and stop making jokes? Apply this to every situation in our lives as hum...
Not necessarily, B doesn't need to stop making jokes because of fear. B could continue making jokes and then get seriously injured as a result. Or B could stop making jokes because B realizes it is a sensitive issue and doesn't want to upset A.
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Momentarily, based on the experience I've gathered and the things I have learned, I have reached the conclusion that one reaches mental maturity when they stop getting offended. And I think that people peace is the direct result of mental maturity, and that wars, confusions and mental hell are generated by tabus (and vice versa).
But what about people who HAVEN'T reached maturity?
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through proper education we can make even 6 year old understand the futility of getting offended. Yes, they are more fragile and children need a lot of love in order to develop a healthy mind set. Personally I would try to reason with my child and create a relationship based on understanding
Ok...education.
Good luck creating a relationship based on understanding if you continue to say and do things that they interpret as being offensive and insulting and even heretical.
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In some situations I was being made fun of as a child and I think all of us did. And guess what? I survived it and even learned from it.
MT, you are a mature person who is concerned with personal growth and development and I respect that. But not everyone is like that. Many people are caught in reactive patterns and emotions. If you want to help them to grow beyond them, then you have to meet them where they are. You have to respect those patterns. Continuing to activate them will not necessarily help them to grow beyond them.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8057206 - 02/22/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm gonna take these two together because they relate
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No, obviously the real thing. But I don't think there's any blanket statement here. Sometimes being blunt may be the best thing to do, other times, being quiet may be the best thing to do.
Not necessarily, B doesn't need to stop making jokes because of fear. B could continue making jokes and then get seriously injured as a result. Or B could stop making jokes because B realizes it is a sensitive issue and doesn't want to upset A.
Yes, it is wise for B (if they want to protect themselves) to be cautious around A. I am not talking from this angle. The angle from which I am looking at this issue is entirely different. Should a nation, a state or an individual make an official apology of such nature? Yes, I acknowledge the fact that it might be "safer" (even thought this is debatable too, because what seems to be safe in the short run, might be detrimental in the long run). But if such a thing occurs it means that a precedent has been created. The offended will always rise their demands because their recipe showed results. It means that we are willingly giving up our freedom
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But what about people who HAVEN'T reached maturity?
This will always be the same. Some will be mature and others won't.  But if you protect the weak, they will never have the chance to grow. Or self destruct if they are unable to learn. But you know, that's life and I have learned that overprotection stands against evolution.
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Ok...education.
Good luck creating a relationship based on understanding if you continue to say and do things that they interpret as being offensive and insulting and even heretical.
No matter what I (or anyone else do), there will always be people who will feel insulted, hurt, or consider my actions as being unjust.
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MT, you are a mature person who is concerned with personal growth and development and I respect that. But not everyone is like that. Many people are caught in reactive patterns and emotions.
Yes. People are caught in reactive emotions because of the situations where other people let them think that they deserve apologies.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8057374 - 02/22/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with other parts. In this case, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for your thoughts though. One of the things I think is great about this forum is the ability of posters here to challenge ideas and conceptions. Usually I'm just around like-minded people and so many ideas go unchallenged.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8057394 - 02/22/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I once let an idea go unchallenged. Guess I was tired or something...
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