Home | Community | Message Board


High Mountain Compost
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Is mysticism as flawed as religion?
    #828097 - 08/19/02 01:31 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think that perhaps most of the people here would believe religion to be inadequate. What I mean by this is that it can obscure truth, that a hierarchy of priests with almost esoteric doctrine only serves to separate people from the divine rather than bring people closer to it.

That mysticism, the awareness of the transcendent nature of God, takes you beyond religion and shows you the reality behind it. That these experiences are far superior to faith and to the low understanding of teachings that were meant as a pointer to truth rather than as truth itself.

My question is this - Is mysticism also inadequate?




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #828103 - 08/19/02 01:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What do you define as mysticism? Mysticism exists within monotheism too.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: Zahid]
    #828160 - 08/19/02 02:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What do you define as mysticism?

Immediate consciousness of God. A sense of union with the divine.

Definitions of Mysticism

Mysticism exists within monotheism to

I was actually only thinking of mysticism within monotheism, although I suspect you may have a different definition of monotheism to me. Mine would include Buddhism, Hinduism etc. as well as Judaism, Christianity and Islam.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,499
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #828357 - 08/19/02 03:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hindu is a polytheistic faith.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #828440 - 08/19/02 04:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hindu is a polytheistic faith

There are numerous "Gods" but I wouldn't agree.

For evidence see The Bhagavad-Gita



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 12,753
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 58 minutes
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #828625 - 08/19/02 05:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Firstly, mystical experience is the culmination of that which is usually called contemplation; and faith is a contemplative attitude. Mysticism is not separate from faith; in fact, there are two main schools of thought: 1) the PCE or Pure Consciousness Experience school which posits that mystical experience can be uncolored by the religious/cultural/psychological mind-set of the experiencer; and 2) the Constuctivist schools, which all posit that the mind-set always colors mystical experience to one extent or another.

Mystical experience that is immediate, which is to say, unmediated by religious rituals, sacraments, priesthood, etc., belongs to another category of experience that has been termed 'gnostic,'from the Greek word gnosis, which is a particular type of 'knowledge.' This knowledge is not discursive or linear, but rather inner, transpersonal and immediate to the experiencer. When Ram Dass wrote about the "Witness" in the first section of BE HERE NOW - that aspect of self-awareness which "knows," is a modern rendering of such gnosis, as well as of mysticism.

"I had just found that 'I,' that scanning device - that point - that essence - that place beyond. A place where 'I' existed independent of social and physical identity. That which was I was beyond Life or Death. And something else - that 'I' Knew - it really Knew. It was wise, rather than just knowledgeable. It was a voice inside that spoke the truth."

Mystical experience is what Huxley called "a gratuitous grace," which is strengthening, but usually not sufficient in itself for 'salvation.' It is a flower (Rose or Lotus, West or East) sprung from the Divine Ground (Spirit) into the psyche (Soul) of one prepared by faith. Paradoxically, it may arise spontaneously and become the basis for assuming the attitude of faith. I, for one, had no faith until I experienced this Witness. It is a matter of 'You have seen and thus believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed,' as the words attributed to Jesus reads. These were words addressed to [Doubting] Thomas, and many years after first reading them did I first discover the realatively recently discovered Gospel of Thomas. This Gospel is one of the Gnostic Gospels (read Elaine Pagel's 'The Gnostic Gospels' for background), and though not canonical, it is important for a fuller understanding of Christian Gnosticism and early Christian mysticism.

In Kabbalistic Judaism, the sphere of Da'ath - Knowledge - between the two Sephiroth of Wisdom and Understanding on the Tree of Life, symbolizes this Gnosis. So do the Knowledge-Holding Deities at the Throat Chakra that manifest after the Enlightenment experience in Vajrayana Buddhism. In Hindu Advaita (non-dualist) philosophy, Jnana (pronounced 'gyan') Yoga, is the Yoga of Knowledge (in this gnostic sense). Advaita is not monotheistic, but monistic (not polytheistic at all).

Mysticism can become a pathological thing if the realization of Oneness becomes interpreted as meaning that Its All Divine; that there is no evil, and that anything goes. This kind of philosophy, practiced by the Thugee (thugs) Kali-worshippers in the 19th century, or by Charlie Manson's psychedelic psychopaths, merely pervert the Truth that the Oneness consists of Love.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #828836 - 08/19/02 07:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

In a word - No! Mysticism is experiential, religion is not. In true mysticism, the only "teachings" are pointers or mental exercises to get you to find your own wisdom, your own connection to the cosmos without any intermediary.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,182
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #829507 - 08/20/02 06:13 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Inner breathlessness, outer restlessness
By the time I caught up to freedom I was out of breath
Grandma asked me what I'm running for
I guess I'm out for the same thing the sun is sunning for
What mothers birth their youngens for
And some say Jesus coming for
For all I know the earth is spinning slow
Suns at half mast 'cause masses ain't aglow
On bended knee, prostrate before an altered tree
I've made the forest suit me
Tables and chairs
Papers and prayers
Matter versus spirit
A metal ladder
A wooden cross
A plastic bottle of water
A mandala encased in glass
A spirit encased in flesh
Sound from shaped hollows
The thickest of mucus released from heightened passion
A man that cries in his sleep
A truth that has gone out of fashion
A mode of expression
A paint splattered wall
A carton of cigarettes
A bouquet of corpses
A dying forest
A nurtured garden
A privatized prison
A candle with a broken wick
A puddle that reflects the sun
A piece of paper with my name on it
I'm surrounded
I surrender
All
All that I am I have been
All I have been has been a long time coming
I am becoming all that I am
The spittle that surrounds the mouth-piece of the flute
Unheard, yet felt
A gathered wetness
A quiet moisture
Sound trapped in a bubble
Released into wind
Wind fellows and land merchants
We are history's detergent
Water soluble, light particles, articles of cleansing breath
Articles amending death
These words are not tools of communication
They are shards of metal
Dropped from eight story windows
They are waterfalls and gas leaks
Aged thoughts rolled in tobacco leaf
The tools of a trade
Barbers barred, barred of barters
Catch phrases and misunderstandings
But they are not what I feel when I am alone
Surrounded by everything and nothing
And there isn't a word or phrase to be caught
A verse to be recited
A man to de-fill my being in those moments
I am blankness, the contained center of an "O"
The pyramidic containment of an "A"
I stand in the middle of all that I have learned
All that I have memorized
All that I've known by heart
Unable to reach any of it
There is no sadness
There is no bliss
It is a forgotten memory
A memorable escape route that only is found by not looking
There, in the spine of the dictionary the words are worthless
They are a mere weight pressing against my thoughtlessness
But then, who else can speak of thoughtlessness with such confidence
Who else has learned to sling these ancient ideas
like dead rats held by their tails
so as not to infect this newly oiled skin
I can think of nothing heavier than an airplane
I can think of no greater conglomerate of steel and metal
I can think of nothing less likely to fly
There are no wings more weighted
I too have felt a heaviness
The stare of man guessing at my being
Yes I am homeless
A homeless man making offerings to the after-future
Sculpting rubber tree forests out of worn tires and shoe soles
A nation unified in exhale
A cloud of smoke
A native pipe ceremony
All the gathered cigarette butts piled in heaps
Snow covered mountains
Lipsticks smeared and shriveled
Offerings to an afterworld
Tattoo guns and plastic wrappers
Broken zippers and dead eyed dolls
It's all overwhelming me, oak and elming me
I have seeded a forest of myself
Little books from tall trees
It matters not what this paper be made of
Give me notebooks made of human flesh
Dried on steel hooks and nooses
Make uses of use, uses of us
It's all overwhelming me, oak and elming me
I have seeded a forest of myself
Little books from tall trees
On bended knee
Prostrate before an altered tree
I've made the forest suit me
Tables and chairs
Papers and prayers
Matter vs. spirit, through meditation
I program my heart to beat breakbeats and hum basslines on exhalation




--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #829582 - 08/20/02 07:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Saul Williams

Excellent, timing is everything.

Cheers,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,182
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: ]
    #829610 - 08/20/02 07:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

nice call, blackalicious - blazing arrow is so refreshing for hip-hop, don't you think?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #829634 - 08/20/02 07:53 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Mystical experience is what Huxley called "a gratuitous grace," which is strengthening, but usually not sufficient in itself for 'salvation.'

this was what I was looking for, opinions on whether such experiences by themselves are inadequate.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,499
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #829845 - 08/20/02 09:31 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Main Entry: poly?the?ism
Pronunciation: 'p?-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
: belief in or worship of more than one god


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #829961 - 08/20/02 10:30 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

belief in or worship of more than one god

The Hindu pantheon of Gods is seen by many as mythology.

e.g. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are seen as different aspects of God rather than being independent real entities.

Rituals are performed in worship of "Gods", but Hindu's believe in one all-pervasive Supreme Being who is both the Creator and Unmanifest Reality.

This is why I believe it is misleading to say it is a polytheistic religion, especially in it's philosophy and mysticism.





Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #830113 - 08/20/02 11:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I will add that Hinduism is notoriously diverse, it does not have a single founder or a central religious organization. It does recognize the existence of multiple deities which are prayed to and worshiped for help. Where people believe in the Gods as individual beings then in this it is not wrongly described as polytheistic, it just isn't the whole picture in my opinion.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #830742 - 08/20/02 05:04 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm over it now.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #832253 - 08/21/02 08:28 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Elaine Pagel's 'The Gnostic Gospels'

Good book, especially how it shows the conflict between orthodoxy and the more mystically inclined.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 12,753
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 58 minutes
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #832868 - 08/21/02 12:06 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Ah!...so you know this book I am currently reading 'The Gnostic Paul,' wherein Pagel's explains the [mostly Valentinian] Gnostic interpretation of several Pauline letters. She contrasts the Gnostic interpretation with those of the heresiologists Iraeneus and Tertullian. Mind you, I do not really enjoy this difficult material, but she is a great scholar whom I respect, and she is teaching me what I want to know about my own conflicts with Orthodox Christian doctrine. I have long suspected that I was more of a Gnostic than an Orthodox Christian; and one of my first religion professors told me that I was free to be a heretic if I wanted to be - which I thought was cool at age 21. Shoot...ya gotta find some group to be identified with, if only to communicate with others.

I don't find it to be particularly glorious to be a solitary anymore. Unless I start my own Church in South Florida, I would feel like a 'fifth columnist' going into any mainline Church to worship. That is what the early Christians actually levelled at the Gnostics - that they use the same language, but inwardly believe VERY different things about the words they used. I understand the differences between the 'hylics,' the 'psychics,' and the 'pneumatics.' I used to be hylic, as a young scientific materialist; and then psychic, when I discovered occultism; and finally, I believe that I came to a pneumatic (spiritual) identity. It is difficult to affirm these things among Christians because it is inevitably elitest. It is not a matter of 'looking down' on others in a condescending way; but if you have 'been to the mountaintop,' by way of peak experiences, and others have not - then you have been given a perpective that allows you a panoramic view - a 'looking down' upon everything from a higher, more comprehensive position, not a condescending, arrogant, elitest point of view. For every step up in Wisdom, we must take three steps back in humility.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Is mysticism as flawed as religion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #834233 - 08/21/02 08:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

For every step up in Wisdom, we must take three steps back in humility.

That's a great line.
Is it yours?
I'm using it in the future and I want to be able to attribute it to the right person.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Polytheism versus monotheism
( 1 2 all )
subconsciousness 2,496 30 11/29/12 07:02 AM
by Schopenhauer
* Gnostic Propaganda
( 1 2 all )
scattass 1,971 26 01/25/09 12:56 PM
by daytripper23
* Rome slams Jewish, Christian, and Islamic mysticism
( 1 2 all )
Zahid 1,912 22 06/30/04 05:31 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* --- Religion Test ---
( 1 2 all )
Shroomerious 2,639 31 08/31/06 10:49 AM
by fireworks_god
* Intelligent design is a religion? Not!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
Mr. Mushrooms 10,581 166 05/26/09 10:17 AM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* Why the scientific method is fundamentally flawed.
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
deCypher 4,906 100 11/07/08 06:11 PM
by Icelander
* Blending religions & philosophies
( 1 2 all )
capliberty 3,217 35 07/29/06 12:25 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* What mysticism is Silversoul 806 10 04/19/06 06:45 AM
by redgreenvines

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
1,170 topic views. 3 members, 6 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:

Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.063 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 14 queries.