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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Free Speech vs Religion
#8047343 - 02/20/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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This just in...
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U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon reaffirmed his predecessor's line on cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad on Wednesday (2/20/2008), saying free speech should respect religious sensitivities.
"The Secretary-General strongly believes that freedom of expression should be exercised responsibly and in a way that respects all religious beliefs," his spokeswoman Marie Okabe told reporters.
I'm confused? Why should I care if a bunch of idiots living in the dark ages become upset because I make fun of their irrational belief in a fictitious god? I think U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon should affirm the importance of free speech and let whatever gods worry about any disrespect I might show towards them.
Yet again religion trumps freedom.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Seuss]
#8047395 - 02/20/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm confused? Why should I care if a bunch of idiots living in the dark ages
Obviously if you don't want to care then you don't, regardless of Ban Ki-moon's decision. Yes, it sucks, I don't like it and I don't believe in any form of obstructing free speech. It is old, rusty and stands against progress. BUT obviously he doesn't seem to think so and apparently so do a large group of people, otherwise they would just grow out of it. What I am trying to say is that I prefer not to feel bad about mentalities like these and just live my life the I want and think whatever I want. Sure that it would be nicer if the world was in a place where we could all drop all these superstitions and fears and start to actually learn, grow and enjoy life, but it isn't happening. And life can still be great if I choose to make it so.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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dblaney
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Seuss]
#8047396 - 02/20/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't think it's quite so black and white. You believe that their beliefs are irrational. You believe that their god is fictitious. They believe that their beliefs are reasonable, and that their god is real.
It's the same age old issue: one belief vs. another belief. All conflict and division in this world comes from this. And everyone has been in the same boat.
You and I hold up free speech as an ideal, and others hold up not-mocking or whatever as an ideal.
Would it be the right thing to do to favor either side? Why is one more "right" than the other? It's a value judgment.
I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from. I think using free speech wisely and compassionately is the best thing to do, and I think that's what Ban Ki-moon is alluding to.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8047424 - 02/20/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Your position sounds quite balanced, but what if someone's beliefs become more and more intrusive (as if the War on Drugs is not intrusive enough)?
Where do you draw the line then? Should you stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians? Did you know that sex toys are still bannned in some southern states because it offends the sensibilities of puritanicals?
Where does it end?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8047463 - 02/20/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
You and I hold up free speech as an ideal, and others hold up not-mocking or whatever as an ideal.
I believed in a christian god for quite a while due to the christian education I received as a child. And I used to get offended when someone was mocking "my god". Yes, it was "my god", that's how far the delusion and indoctrination can attack the human mind. I would take it personal and would make a purpose out of getting back at that person somehow. Can you observe the psychological issues in all that? Now I don't know if there's a god or not, even though I tend to think that there isn't. But since I personally and willingly admitted that I could be wrong once, I am also taking to account that I might suspect wrong this time too. The difference between those two is not a matter of "right" or "wrong", but one of what seems to show more constructive and healthy results. Now, from what I know, humor has never injured anybody. Resisting to it did. And so did (and does) blind faith.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8047480 - 02/20/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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What has always cracked me up is how a mere speck of cosmic dust called a 'human' feels the need to defend the most powerful being in existence. I 'believe' if God exists that he can handle himself in a street fight.
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backfromthedead
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Quite the fighter it is.
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MushroomTrip
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We're pretty comic little fuckers
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dblaney
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No, I don't think it is reasonable to stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians. But I think it is reasonable to simply refrain from saying something if you know that it's going to offend and hurt someone else.
The lines are subjective and have no substantial reality, but can be useful for living together in a world with such an amazing and awe-inspiring array of ideologies and value systems.
In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8047636 - 02/20/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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No as it is non-constructive. By restraining ourselves from saying something that might hurt someone's precious feelings we encourage people not to grow up and stop being such butt hurts. I strongly believe in survival of the fittest and if some can't stand seeing their imaginary god in a funny drawing then I am asking myself: what else can't they stand, how "hurt" they will be and if at some point it is possible for them to become aggressive or threatening.
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In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.
No again. Peace is a state of being, it is something that comes from our deepest selves and it is the result of the maturity of the mind. How mature are those who get offended? How mature are those who think we should "behave" around those who are weak-minded? This is not the recipe for peace in my book. I prefer to get my ass kicked any time I show lack of understanding or maturity thank you very much.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8047661 - 02/20/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: No, I don't think it is reasonable to stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians. But I think it is reasonable to simply refrain from saying something if you know that it's going to offend and hurt someone else.
...
In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.
Agreed, but I don't think conforming to someone else's intolerant dogma is a constructive activity if mutual respect is our goal.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8047668 - 02/20/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yup
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8047699 - 02/20/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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with the right of free speech comes the right to self censorship. it is unlawful to force you to watch something, or listen to something. as long as the speech isnt libel or slander or inciting a riot... then it should be ok. no one said the muslims have to look at the cartoons.
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Icelander
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8047704 - 02/20/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from.
If you really believe this then you haven't been around.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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backfromthedead
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Icelander]
#8047823 - 02/20/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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'If you really believe this then you haven't been around.'
Great. I really want to have been around. Sounds positive.
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dblaney
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8047833 - 02/20/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Determining which side leads to more healthy and constructive results is always going to be based on value systems that are influenced by all sorts of things like culture, religion, politics, education, etc etc.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8047867 - 02/20/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I never sustained the contrary. This is why we can always make use of adaptability.  We change accordingly in order to meet our best interests any time it is necessary and as a result the world changes according to who we become. Momentary the most preferable thing to do is to learn how to integrate freedom of expression in our lives and make more use of humor and laughter. It seems to make us more relaxed and ready to accept.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8047874 - 02/20/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's pretty disappointing. Free speech should respect religious beliefs? Then it's not fucking free speech, God-fucking-damn-it.
GJ UN.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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dblaney
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8047908 - 02/20/08 03:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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While there's nothing wrong with having ideas and standards of what it means to be 'mature' or what it means to 'grow up,' these ideals are simply not the reality. What you're saying is that you think people should conform to your standards of maturity, and you're not going to consider the way people are right now. You're going to act the way you want to act and say what you want to say, and if it hurts them, then that's okay, it's their own fault for not meeting your standards of maturity and being.
The reality is that we are all just where we are and just the way we are, right now...with all our hang-ups and boundaries and comfort zones and taboos and sensitivities.
In my mind, maturity is recognizing this, and opening your heart to the world as it is. In some situations it may be the appropriate thing to do to challenge tightly held beliefs and notions by violating cultural norms and insulting people. But most of the time, I think the appropriate thing to do is to respect that people have boundaries that aren't always rational, and to keep these in mind when acting and communicating; not just completely disregarding others and only considering your own wants and drives.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8047935 - 02/20/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
dblaney said: No, I don't think it is reasonable to stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians. But I think it is reasonable to simply refrain from saying something if you know that it's going to offend and hurt someone else.
...
In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.
Agreed, but I don't think conforming to someone else's intolerant dogma is a constructive activity if mutual respect is our goal.
Well if conforming is the only approach towards mutual respect, then I agree. I don't think you can work towards mutual respect and tolerancewithout being respectful and tolerant yourself, and I don't see how purposely disregarding their own beliefs and attitudes is respectful. So I think you need to be respectful and from that foundation of kindness and respect work towards mutual respect and tolerance for everyone.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Icelander]
#8047954 - 02/20/08 03:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from.
If you really believe this then you haven't been around.
I've taken my history classes. Do you really think that we open and have opened our hearts and minds to whatever we see as our enemies or opposition? I don't think so. We may say so, but it's mostly just talk. We still cling to our rigid beliefs and ideas and though we may briefly entertain the beliefs and ideas of others, in general I think we tend to cling to our own beliefs and ideas as being 'right' or however else we may justify them.
In general, I don't think we understand where the other side is coming from and for that matter, I don't know if we even want to most of the time. It's so much easier and more comforting to think that we are right and they are wrong.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8047963 - 02/20/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Couldn't this also be said about what you said? They're just personal standards as well. The thing is that I am not going to place the blame in anyone. As yawning said, self censorship is available for anyone who is willing to apply it. I am sorry, what you say just doesn't click with me and your motivations are far from being reasonable. I am not TAKING AWAY anyone's freedom when I speak, but they are taking away mine when they enforce a law telling me that I am not allowed to do it. Should you have to give up taking drugs or meditating because you hurt your family or Christian neighbor? How do you determine: Quote:
"In some situations it may be the appropriate thing to do to challenge tightly held beliefs and notions by violating cultural norms and insulting people. But most of the time, I think the appropriate thing to do is to respect that people have boundaries that aren't always rational, and to keep these in mind when acting and communicating; not just completely disregarding others and only considering your own wants and drives."
 And WHO will determine all that? Won't that be vitiated anyways? Someone always ends up with something they didn't want, the "offender" can also be "hurt" because he's being interdicted to express himself. Is it preferable to encourage the victimhood mentality?  You are basically saying that MY view is biased and using the same logic so is yours. However, he should care that we hurt someone when we fart in church.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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usefulidiot13
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8048401 - 02/20/08 05:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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when it comes to others i believe i share similar feelings with MT.
as we are right now, we have no access to any mind other than our own. the best we can do is interact with eachother and over time learn what we can about eachother.
when the interaction is limited and there is no understanding, solutions are ineffective or unliked.
like the topic.
thing is, people take words too personally. but what should we expect when words are all we can share with one another?
we have to work on it ourselves. practice, practice, practice.
-------------------- What Would Dexter Do?
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dblaney
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8048504 - 02/20/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Couldn't this also be said about what you said? They're just personal standards as well.
Exactly! When you take away all the standards...yours, mine, religious fundamentalists...then there are no ideas of how people should be, just people being the way they are.
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I am sorry, what you say just doesn't click with me and your motivations are far from being reasonable.
My motivations are far from being reasonable? What motivations are you talking about?
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I am not TAKING AWAY anyone's freedom when I speak, but they are taking away mine when they enforce a law telling me that I am not allowed to do it.
Speech can be a very powerful thing. Ultimately, no one can stop you or me from saying what we are going to say. I don't necessarily agree that laws should be made that prohibit people saying certain things, but I do think that people should use their freedom of speech wisely and compassionately.
Quote:
Should you have to give up taking drugs or meditating because you hurt your family or Christian neighbor? How do you determine:
Depends on what sort of hurt we're talking about here. If someone became physically violent after taking drugs, then yes, perhaps they should have to give up taking drugs, if they are unable to use them responsibly. If someone's Christian neighbor is upset that they're practicing meditation then they should exercise wisdom and compassion and not meditate around them or talk about it around them That's pretty much common sense.
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And WHO will determine all that? Won't that be vitiated anyways?
You and I. However, there are circumstances where a governing body may need to intervene. For instance, if people are saying things that could lead to violence or are violating the rights of others, then there may need to be consequences.
Anyone and any organization can be corrupt. I don't think that's such a relevant issue.
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Is it preferable to encourage the victimhood mentality?
How would any of this be encouraging the victimhood mentality?
Quote:
You are basically saying that MY view is biased and using the same logic so is yours.
Well yes of course. My view is limited, as is yours, and as is that of fundamentalists, and everyone else on this planet. In order to coexist in harmony, we need to recognize that we all have narrow perspectives, and that few are aware of them as such and are able to see beyond them.
I'd like to think that this awareness naturally brings forth compassion and kindness. I'm not talking about some dumb appearance of compassion that is in reality an attempt to satiate everyone and avoid displeasing people, but a compassion that accepts people's narrow perspectives as they are, and doesn't seek to hurt people.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8049265 - 02/20/08 09:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Well if conforming is the only approach towards mutual respect, then I agree. I don't think you can work towards mutual respect and tolerancewithout being respectful and tolerant yourself, and I don't see how purposely disregarding their own beliefs and attitudes is respectful. So I think you need to be respectful and from that foundation of kindness and respect work towards mutual respect and tolerance for everyone.
I don't mind refraining from doing something because I know someone will be distressed by it. I just think mutual respect can't be achieved by refraining from offending, only by refraining from taking offense.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Seuss
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8050468 - 02/21/08 03:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Replies to various bits from the post. Apologies for lack of context:
> I don't think it's quite so black and white.
It never is black and white, but taking an extreme position helps me to understand the middle ground.
> Why is one (mocking vs free expression) more "right" than the other? It's a value judgment.
Because mocking is in the ear of the listener. What one person finds offensive another might find amusing. Who decides what is offensive and what is not.
> No, I don't think it is reasonable to stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians.
What happens when the vegetarians think eating meat is unreasonable and will kill you for doing so. Again, the problem is with who decides what is reasonable or not.
> I don't necessarily agree that laws should be made that prohibit people saying certain things, but I do think that people should use their freedom of speech wisely and compassionately.
And if they dont, cut off their heads! Again, who decides what is wise and compassionate. What about societies that are removed from one another? Do I need to worry about speaking wisely and compassionately when talking about scuba diving because of some unknown scuba taboo in Monaco?
> I don't mind refraining from doing something because I know someone will be distressed by it.
How do you feel about an international law that allows anybody that is offended by anything you say to have you prosecuted in international UN court and thrown in UN jail if found guilty of saying something that offended them? (Far fetched, but I am going for extremes here.)
> I just think mutual respect can't be achieved by refraining from offending
What happens when the people that you are offending are offended by your very existence and lack of belief in their value system? What happens when people have no desire for mutal respect, but only want their way without compromise on their part? Still willing to give up your freedom of expression to help smooth over their hurt feelings?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8050505 - 02/21/08 04:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Exactly! When you take away all the standards...yours, mine, religious fundamentalists...then there are no ideas of how people should be, just people being the way they are.
Yes, exactly.  So why should I refrain myself from making any comments that could "hurt" someone? 
Quote:
My motivations are far from being reasonable? What motivations are you talking about?
Well what you earlier said. That sometimes it is best to take to consideration other people's beliefs and stop making comments that might offend them... because that's how peace is sustained. I am sorry, this just doesn't make any sense. I refuse to give up my freedom of expression just to support emotional wanking which leads nowhere.  Also, like I earlier said, this is not how peace is sustained. This indulgence will make people like these more and more demanding and it's a place where I don't wanna be.
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Speech can be a very powerful thing. Ultimately, no one can stop you or me from saying what we are going to say. I don't necessarily agree that laws should be made that prohibit people saying certain things, but I do think that people should use their freedom of speech wisely and compassionately.
No, words can't hurt. People's emotional attachment to them do so, and they do this to themselves. I feel sorry that there are people unable to control their emotions, but this has nothing to do with me.
Quote:
Depends on what sort of hurt we're talking about here. If someone became physically violent after taking drugs, then yes, perhaps they should have to give up taking drugs, if they are unable to use them responsibly. If someone's Christian neighbor is upset that they're practicing meditation then they should exercise wisdom and compassion and not meditate around them or talk about it around them That's pretty much common sense.
We were talking in the context of freedom of speech. My question is still standing.
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You and I. However, there are circumstances where a governing body may need to intervene. For instance, if people are saying things that could lead to violence or are violating the rights of others, then there may need to be consequences.
I'm not buying that. People don't do violent things BECAUSE of talking, they do t because they WANT TO. It is true that talking about them is part of creating a plan, but it is not what creates the intention.
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How would any of this be encouraging the victimhood mentality?
I think it's pretty obvious. People who get offended by words consider themselves victims. By playing their game we encourage victimhood.
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I'd like to think that this awareness naturally brings forth compassion and kindness. I'm not talking about some dumb appearance of compassion that is in reality an attempt to satiate everyone and avoid displeasing people, but a compassion that accepts people's narrow perspectives as they are, and doesn't seek to hurt people.
I accept their relationship with religion that's why I am NOT trying in any way to change their minds. Making jokes about it is not fighting their religion or trying to convert them to something else. The difference is huge and I don't consider an act of intelligent compassion refraining myself from making those.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
Edited by MushroomTrip (02/21/08 05:09 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8050523 - 02/21/08 05:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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this whole cartoon issue is not about god it's about race based humor discrimination of cultures and about responding to people's sensitivities. both sides of the issue are dumb and the mediation of them is unclear in it's response as to why it is mediating, but stepping in is necessary because groups have become inflamed.
anyway it's not diplomatic to criticize any groups religious traditions, practices, or garments.
for example, in america, a christian god, and the consumer society are taken for granted: mass consumption of goods and mass waste all along the way. It is even supposed that this backward thinking is driving a kind of international aggression. It would probably be undiplomatic to show bush, in a church parking lot, getting military instructions from god and throwing partly uneaten fried chicken from the window of his SUV with the wrapping still on.
(shouldn't there be more of that kind of cartoon?)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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this whole cartoon issue is not about god it's about race based humor discrimination of cultures and about responding to people's sensitivities.
My problem with the "cartoon issue" is that I had no idea that certain cultures find cartoon characterizations to be offensive. How can I be expected to know what every single culture in the world finds offensive? Why should I be expected to be sensitive towards every single culture? I find the act of censorship to be offensive, as do many that live in a fairly free society. Why do the violent oppressive societies have more right to oppression than free societies have to free expression?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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I like what you said and couldn't agree with you more. But I still honestly believe (yes it's a belief because by the way things are going at the present moment there are weak chances) that maybe somehow we will reach a phase in which we will accept our differences and still be able to make fun of them.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Seuss]
#8050532 - 02/21/08 05:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Seuss said: Why do the violent oppressive societies have more right to oppression than free societies have to free expression?
Because the one thing that all these cultures surely have in common is the feeling of guilt. When we will grow out of that perhaps things will change.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Seuss]
#8050671 - 02/21/08 07:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> I don't mind refraining from doing something because I know someone will be distressed by it.
How do you feel about an international law that allows anybody that is offended by anything you say to have you prosecuted in international UN court and thrown in UN jail if found guilty of saying something that offended them? (Far fetched, but I am going for extremes here.)
I would not support anything of that sort. I was talking about voluntary respect. Laws can't force people to respect anything.
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> I just think mutual respect can't be achieved by refraining from offending
What happens when the people that you are offending are offended by your very existence and lack of belief in their value system? What happens when people have no desire for mutal respect, but only want their way without compromise on their part? Still willing to give up your freedom of expression to help smooth over their hurt feelings?
NO! I never said I support any such laws or that I back the UN statement in your original post. When did I indicate that I support giving up freedom of expression? You are either confusing my posts with others' posts, or you completely misinterpreted what I said.
It is possible to voluntarily decline to say or do something that will upset somebody, even though it is that person's intolerance that causes their own distress. The idea of acting with sensitivity towards others even if it that sensitivity is not reciprocated is baffling to some people, I know. Demonstrating a common respect for someone else's values is worthwhile in my experience. I can't make them respect me, but offering my respect to them is the best incentive for them to do so.
I am not arguing for any restrictions on free speech whatsoever. I defend the right to publish cartoons of Mohammed or depict Jesus boxing Satan on South Park.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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herelittlepiggy
Shako Mako



Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 92
Loc: Papua New Guinea
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8050687 - 02/21/08 07:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The preacher at my church said the other day , "america is turning into a communist country".
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Quote:
herelittlepiggy said: The preacher at my church said the other day , "america is turning into a communist country".
Did he just say that out of the blue, with no context or examples?
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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mushbaby
woodswalker




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Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8050698 - 02/21/08 07:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I chose not to poke fun at people's beliefs and don't usually find it funny when others do. But I agree they have the right to do so.
This seems to me to show that the Muslim fundamentalism is really becoming a force to reckon with. I think everyone is caving due to fear. They don't want the bombings that occur when these representations of Mohammed are published. That fear is insiduous. It's a worrisome response to this issue.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: mushbaby]
#8050710 - 02/21/08 07:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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mushbaby said:
This seems to me to show that the Muslim fundamentalism is really becoming a force to reckon with. I think everyone is caving due to fear. They don't want the bombings that occur when these representations of Mohammed are published. That fear is insiduous. It's a worrisome response to this issue.
I agree, I don't support pulling offensive cartoons or ads in response to threats.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Tchan909 said: That's pretty disappointing. Free speech should respect religious beliefs? Then it's not fucking free speech, God-fucking-damn-it.
GJ UN.
Land of the free/home of the slaves.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8050910 - 02/21/08 08:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So why should I refrain myself from making any comments that could "hurt" someone?
You shouldn't refrain from anything if you don't think doing so is worthwhile or important.
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I refuse to give up my freedom of expression just to support emotional wanking which leads nowhere. Also, like I earlier said, this is not how peace is sustained. This indulgence will make people like these more and more demanding and it's a place where I don't wanna be.
I don't see how peace can be sustained through ignoring the sensitivities and feelings of others. Maybe there is some middle ground that we aren't seeing that's between the extremes of completely caving in to the wants and needs of everyone else and completely ignoring the wants and needs of everyone else.
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No, words can't hurt. People's emotional attachment to them do so, and they do this to themselves. I feel sorry that there are people unable to control their emotions, but this has nothing to do with me.
If you look at a 6 year old child who was just made fun of by her friends and tell her that she's upset not because of what her friends said but because of her emotional attachments, she's going to have no idea what you're talking about, and continue being upset.
Is the intelligent and compassionate thing to do here to just tell her that she is creating her own suffering and walk away, or is it to work with her towards making peace with herself and her friends?
Likewise, if YOU are making fun of a friend, and notice that they are becoming visibly upset and disturbed, is the intelligent and compassionate thing to do to dismiss their discomfort and hurt as products of their own creation from emotional attachments, or is it to stop making fun of them, apologize in order to create a climate of openness and forgiveness, and then when the time is right talk with them about it? Or is it something else entirely?
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People don't do violent things BECAUSE of talking, they do t because they WANT TO. It is true that talking about them is part of creating a plan, but it is not what creates the intention.
The intention may be there, but in many cases, I'm not convinced that it would become manifest without the provocation of words and talking. If A is an angry and reactive person, and B happens to come along and jokingly poke fun of their race or something that they identify with, A very well may lash out and become violent. Would A have lashed out at B if B hadn't said anything? Probably not. Therefore, words and talking can be the direct cause of the manifestation of violence and conflict.
I agree though, that the intention would probably be there before any words. Which is why I think it's so important to create an environment that is open and compassionate, in order to deal with these underlying issues.
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I think it's pretty obvious. People who get offended by words consider themselves victims. By playing their game we encourage victimhood.
But by ignoring their game and how they feel, we also encourage victimhood (if they feel that they are being ignored or mocked in spite of their feelings, that could easily create a victim mentality).
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8051510 - 02/21/08 11:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't see how peace can be sustained through ignoring the sensitivities and feelings of others. Maybe there is some middle ground that we aren't seeing that's between the extremes of completely caving in to the wants and needs of everyone else and completely ignoring the wants and needs of everyone else.
Maybe. Momentarily, based on the experience I've gathered and the things I have learned, I have reached the conclusion that one reaches mental maturity when they stop getting offended. And I think that people peace is the direct result of mental maturity, and that wars, confusions and mental hell are generated by tabus (and vice versa).
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If you look at a 6 year old child who was just made fun of by her friends and tell her that she's upset not because of what her friends said but because of her emotional attachments, she's going to have no idea what you're talking about, and continue being upset.
This is why I am calling on mental maturity. A 6 year old doesn't have such a thing. But I think that through proper education we can make even 6 year old understand the futility of getting offended. Yes, they are more fragile and children need a lot of love in order to develop a healthy mind set. Personally I would try to reason with my child and create a relationship based on understanding. If for example my child would be made fun of, I would try to explain him/her that life has moments where our nerves and vulnerabilities are being tested and that even thought I understand that they suffer, they will just have to learn to control their negative emotions, explore them with lucidity and look for compatible company. Also I would integrate lots of self control techniques for them to learn. In some situations I was being made fun of as a child and I think all of us did. And guess what? I survived it and even learned from it. I never liked to whine and this has helped me to get over these much faster.
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Is the intelligent and compassionate thing to do here to just tell her that she is creating her own suffering and walk away, or is it to work with her towards making peace with herself and her friends?
I don't see any contradiction between those two.  In fact these ideas are compatible with each other. If she will be able to understand that those negative emotions are the result of her own mind (a mind which she can change in order to experience happiness), she can also make peace with herself and with her friends.
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Likewise, if YOU are making fun of a friend, and notice that they are becoming visibly upset and disturbed, is the intelligent and compassionate thing to do to dismiss their discomfort and hurt as products of their own creation from emotional attachments, or is it to stop making fun of them, apologize in order to create a climate of openness and forgiveness, and then when the time is right talk with them about it? Or is it something else entirely?
Actually I have anded many "friendships" because of that. Because some of my friends got offended because I was too "blunt" with them. I also lost many friendships because I tried to be "delicate" and not hurt their feelings and it was interpreted as an act of lie from my side. I reached the conclusion that honesty (no matter how harsh it is) is much more valuable than anything else. But through the same bluntness I have made some really cool and deep and lasting friendships. Which mean much more that lots of superficial ones.  So do we want a fake niceness or should we dare to aim for the real thing? 
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The intention may be there, but in many cases, I'm not convinced that it would become manifest without the provocation of words and talking. If A is an angry and reactive person, and B happens to come along and jokingly poke fun of their race or something that they identify with, A very well may lash out and become violent. Would A have lashed out at B if B hadn't said anything? Probably not. Therefore, words and talking can be the direct cause of the manifestation of violence and conflict.
I agree though, that the intention would probably be there before any words. Which is why I think it's so important to create an environment that is open and compassionate, in order to deal with these underlying issues.
If A is angry B should fear that and stop making jokes? Apply this to every situation in our lives as humans and you get the bull shit that is called diplomacy. 
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But by ignoring their game and how they feel, we also encourage victimhood (if they feel that they are being ignored or mocked in spite of their feelings, that could easily create a victim mentality).
No. Personality crisis, dementia's and the like are successfully cured with indifference, because those who seek to be treated as victims do it because they beg for attention. And if they don't get that attention they will eventually give up or end up drained of energy trying.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Seuss]
#8055426 - 02/22/08 08:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
I'm confused? Why should I care if a bunch of idiots living in the dark ages become upset because I make fun of their irrational belief in a fictitious god? I think U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon should affirm the importance of free speech and let whatever gods worry about any disrespect I might show towards them.
Yet again religion trumps freedom.
If they're living in the Dark Ages, what period are you living in?
First, having opinions about a situation is not equal to understanding it.
Unlike the moral deficiency one finds in US law and rights, most places in the world believe that freedom of speech should not be a right, but a privilege. I.E. freedom of speech is not absolute and with it comes responsibilities. Whether or not a state should legislate and enforce those responsibilities is another question.
Freedom and freedom of speech are not equivalent to crudeness (one could think of more intelligent, sensible, cleverly offensive or polemical, and deeper ways to depict the profet), brandishing porno and upholding the often cited unwritten law: I-can-say-what-ever-the-fuck-I-want.
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Icelander]
#8055437 - 02/22/08 08:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from.
If you really believe this then you haven't been around.
As long as the other (side) is, there will be no unity.
But globalization is trying to get rid of all those others.
Maybe someday we'll all be one, what a nightmare.
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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the cartoon issue is somewhat about god, somewhat about race-based humor, but a lot about segments of the world that are consistently threatened, marginalized and in other ways discredited (the first post's "dark ages" is an extension of this) being kicked on.
where i live there is an artist, Lars Vilks, who was inspired by the low-bred and infantile danish cartoons depicting Mohamed. Being an old man with his mainstay of creative inspiration welling from passive-aggressivity and provocation, he made a sketch of Mohamed as a dog-statue on a roundabout. These drawings were removed from the first place where they were exhibited, it was clear that they were removed due to fear of retribution. So, as you say, both sides are stupid, yet here all three sides are stupid: Lars Vilks, Muslims, and the museums representing mediocre humanist values and guilty morality. Other places then refused to show the drawings, except one, a Muslim organization, which agreed to present them publicly, but then withdrew their offer, censoring themselves although they were trying to play the well-adapted-new-Swedish-liberal-game. Then in August or so last year one of the drawings was published in the newspaper editorial about freedom of speech and censorship. Several Muslim organizations protested and several governments were irate and made threats...
Your cartoon suggestion may be undiplomatic and certainly would be funny to most of the world, and would make many Americans irate, frothing at the mouth and chanting nasty things about their persecution throughout the world... However, there is not only a diplomatic difference but an ontological difference in this. It's a similar difference between the 'nigger' and the 'cracker'. Are we supposed to feel sorry for the one called cracker? Is it just a matter of being undiplomatic, these names? ...to say that is to disregard (no, not to get lost in) the many spiritual, cultural, political, economical, ideological and power differences the words imply.
More of this type of cartoon, perhaps... but from what you wrote it seems you know, 'deep down', that this type of cartoon brings much illness when spread to the wrong host.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8057077 - 02/22/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
So do we want a fake niceness or should we dare to aim for the real thing? 
Fake niceness of course! 
No, obviously the real thing. But I don't think there's any blanket statement here. Sometimes being blunt may be the best thing to do, other times, being quiet may be the best thing to do.
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If A is angry B should fear that and stop making jokes? Apply this to every situation in our lives as hum...
Not necessarily, B doesn't need to stop making jokes because of fear. B could continue making jokes and then get seriously injured as a result. Or B could stop making jokes because B realizes it is a sensitive issue and doesn't want to upset A.
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Momentarily, based on the experience I've gathered and the things I have learned, I have reached the conclusion that one reaches mental maturity when they stop getting offended. And I think that people peace is the direct result of mental maturity, and that wars, confusions and mental hell are generated by tabus (and vice versa).
But what about people who HAVEN'T reached maturity?
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through proper education we can make even 6 year old understand the futility of getting offended. Yes, they are more fragile and children need a lot of love in order to develop a healthy mind set. Personally I would try to reason with my child and create a relationship based on understanding
Ok...education.
Good luck creating a relationship based on understanding if you continue to say and do things that they interpret as being offensive and insulting and even heretical.
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In some situations I was being made fun of as a child and I think all of us did. And guess what? I survived it and even learned from it.
MT, you are a mature person who is concerned with personal growth and development and I respect that. But not everyone is like that. Many people are caught in reactive patterns and emotions. If you want to help them to grow beyond them, then you have to meet them where they are. You have to respect those patterns. Continuing to activate them will not necessarily help them to grow beyond them.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8057206 - 02/22/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm gonna take these two together because they relate
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No, obviously the real thing. But I don't think there's any blanket statement here. Sometimes being blunt may be the best thing to do, other times, being quiet may be the best thing to do.
Not necessarily, B doesn't need to stop making jokes because of fear. B could continue making jokes and then get seriously injured as a result. Or B could stop making jokes because B realizes it is a sensitive issue and doesn't want to upset A.
Yes, it is wise for B (if they want to protect themselves) to be cautious around A. I am not talking from this angle. The angle from which I am looking at this issue is entirely different. Should a nation, a state or an individual make an official apology of such nature? Yes, I acknowledge the fact that it might be "safer" (even thought this is debatable too, because what seems to be safe in the short run, might be detrimental in the long run). But if such a thing occurs it means that a precedent has been created. The offended will always rise their demands because their recipe showed results. It means that we are willingly giving up our freedom
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But what about people who HAVEN'T reached maturity?
This will always be the same. Some will be mature and others won't.  But if you protect the weak, they will never have the chance to grow. Or self destruct if they are unable to learn. But you know, that's life and I have learned that overprotection stands against evolution.
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Ok...education.
Good luck creating a relationship based on understanding if you continue to say and do things that they interpret as being offensive and insulting and even heretical.
No matter what I (or anyone else do), there will always be people who will feel insulted, hurt, or consider my actions as being unjust.
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MT, you are a mature person who is concerned with personal growth and development and I respect that. But not everyone is like that. Many people are caught in reactive patterns and emotions.
Yes. People are caught in reactive emotions because of the situations where other people let them think that they deserve apologies.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8057374 - 02/22/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with other parts. In this case, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for your thoughts though. One of the things I think is great about this forum is the ability of posters here to challenge ideas and conceptions. Usually I'm just around like-minded people and so many ideas go unchallenged.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
#8057394 - 02/22/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I once let an idea go unchallenged. Guess I was tired or something...
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