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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722008 - 09/27/05 09:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Um...I believe there are three 'os' in the word stooopid.  :grin:

Maybe you should blame the Demiurge for all the flaws in creation. Then again, it is imperfection that separates creation from the perfection that characterizes the Pleroma [Fullness], the Godhead. Matter casts a Shadow compared to the Eternal Light. It is the Shadow which is evil.


Intelligent Design need not be attributed to "an entity." GOD is never intelligently defined as an entity or 'a' being. Creation speaks loud and clear to an incomprehensible complexity on every level from the subatomic to the macrocosmic. The systems  and backup systems in the human organism alone (on every level), not to mention the biosphere in which we are embedded is nothing short of miraculous. How comes it that you can find only imperfection in the miracle of living existence?  :confused:  The Miller experiment created some amino acids in the lab, but neither of us can create a single-cell living organism. THAT power resides in a Transcendental Reality.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722031 - 09/27/05 09:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There's something funny going on around here. :sherlock: :jester:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722171 - 09/27/05 10:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Um...I believe there are three 'os' in the word stooopid

Ooops! :wink:

Maybe you should blame the Demiurge for all the flaws in creation

The question then is who created the Demiurge so incompetent as to create the Stoopid Design, and why did his boss (God) knowingly (since he knows all) assign the job to an incompetent, eventually leading to the pitiful death of children with leukemia?

Intelligent Design need not be attributed to "an entity."

The phrase "Intelligent Design" speaks of a designer who is intelligent; that is an entity.

Creation speaks loud and clear to an incomprehensible complexity on every level

Actually, it speaks loud and clear to a beautiful simplicity. Everything you see around you is a product of only four fundamental forces.

The Miller experiment created some amino acids in the lab, but neither of us can create a single-cell living organism

That's only a matter of time:

The C. elegans nematode's one million DNA base pairs have been fully mapped. Artificially manufacturing a C. elegans embryo from base elements is today within the means of science. Only the funding to do it is lacking.

Furthermore, and this is the clincher, a new fully human-designed and manufactured nematode species that has never exited on Earth is also within our means limited only by the financial will to do it.

THAT power resides in a Transcendental Reality

As I just demonstrated, it resides in OUR reality today.

In some years, a sentient, emotional machine (something mystics claim impossible like they did with chess computers and voice recognition) will be created, and it also will reside in our reality.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722229 - 09/27/05 10:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In some years, a sentient, emotional machine (something mystics claim impossible like they did with chess computers and voice recognition) will be created, and it also will reside in our reality.




Until I find it and slaughter the unholy beast!


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722260 - 09/27/05 10:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't the inelligent part subjective. Just because it is not "perfect", does not mean that it was not created properly. All of these things could have been included into the program to keep population in check, or to give humans goals to strive towards, or just for the design team to have something to watch for entertainment.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722279 - 09/27/05 10:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

AI will not be Transcendental as it will be created.

Complexity is built on simplicity, as is the novelty inherent in different snowflakes. Individuality is likewise comprised of a few 'simple' universals if one understands Buddhist Abhidhamma psychology.

Intelligent Design on a profound level recognizes that the infrastructure of Reality is at least (to use Jung's term) "psychoid." That is to say that the two sides of the coin are the physical and the psychical, and the universe is itself psychophysical. We, being of the same fabric of space-time are likewise psychophysical. Some aspects of space-time are more apt to transmit this than others - living organisms moreso than inorganic matter. I once heard music from W-VNJ radio vibrate from two overlapping rain gutters (apparently with a thin oxide layer) on my parent's house - sort of like my Germanium crystal radio. Simple analogy.

I don't know of any latter day mystics who pontificate on scientific advances. The universe is clearly not characterized exclusively by inert, inorganic, physical processes. Insofar as this is true, intelligence is built into the universe. It is not evident in a cubic foot of deep space vacuum or the lunar surface, but to evaluate tiny pieces misses the point. Intelligence IS.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722315 - 09/27/05 10:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: daimyo]
    #4722359 - 09/27/05 10:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Actually, it speaks loud and clear to a beautiful simplicity. Everything you see around you is a product of only four fundamental forces."

perhaps it speaks elegance but why simplicity? and what if the four fundamental forces are a product of one great principle?

"As I just demonstrated, it resides in OUR reality today.

In some years, a sentient, emotional machine (something mystics claim impossible like they did with chess computers and voice recognition) will be created, and it also will reside in our reality. "

i certainly don't claim it impossible but i must ask how you can possibly claim it as true. please remind me what the test for sentience is again. that aside, the creation of a sentient machine would only further the argument for the necessity of a designer. the fact that it was designed could be inferred from its very existance.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722361 - 09/27/05 10:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

How do you know it's psychophysical? I remember you making a comment a while back supporting the teaching of the Intelligent Design myth (it doesn't fit the definition of a hypothesis or theory, at least currently) so without evidence, why should the "psychoid" nature of the universe be taught? How can you confirm, test or disprove it?

The main problem with these myths is that people expect you just to take their word for it, but until there's evidence, anyone with a scientific mind will think deeper about the issue. If the entire universe is psychophysical, then how come we don't have any evidence on the psychoid portions of it? This is the entire universe after all, not just one little planet or species, so we should be able to gather something about it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722395 - 09/27/05 10:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Insofar as this is true, intelligence is built into the universe.



I could point to many parts of the universe(i.e. certain people) for whom intelligence does not seem to be built in.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4724106 - 09/28/05 07:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Jung had a scientific yet philosophical mind. The theory of a psychoid universe - the obverse of the purely physical fabric of space-time - can be used to account for parapsychological phenomenon like synchronicity and telepathy. It is a fabulous concept to 'assume' for the fun of it - 'as if' it truly operates. It might require two people on different solar systems to have a telepathic moment to 'prove' that the simultaneity of their thoughts 'transcends' the speed of any electromagnetic waves - their telepathy would be completely simultaneous parsecs apart. I would teach this sort of thing in grad school, not grade school. Also, if human[oid] life exists on other worlds, it is at least imaginable that dreams, fantasies, visions are communications from 'another world.' It may well be that nightmare scenarios stem from other worlds as well, not merely fabulous confabulations from our purportedly 'creative' unconscious. Perhaps we don't create everything, we receive data that we misinterpret by virtue of our big f**king egos. Just speculating, but I do proceed 'as if' the universe is psychoid, and I treat animals 'as if' they are much more intelligent and comprehending than we are given to believe as an extension of the first 'assumption' - plants too to a lesser extent.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4724179 - 09/28/05 08:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Intelligent design requires the incredibly arrogant belief that complex systems cannot exist without the intervention of something resembling our conciousness.

"Only a thinking, sentient being like us could have created us."

Maybe, just maybe we aren't as special and unique as we'd like to think we are.

Also, if it required divine intervention for us to be created, doesn't that kind of change the theory about the size of the universe meaning there must be other intelligent life? If there's an intelligent creator, and it was such a complicated project making us, maybe he just said "phew, fuck it, we only need one of these" and moved on.

If I lived on an enormous island and made stone sculptures, I wouldn't have any more time or energy to make more stone sculputres than if I lived on a tiny little island, so the size of the island wouldn't make any difference at all.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4724322 - 09/28/05 10:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Maybe, just maybe we aren't as special and unique as we'd like to think we are.



But...but...my mommy says I'm special. :hissyfit:


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4724337 - 09/28/05 10:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4724536 - 09/28/05 11:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The fact that we have wisdom teeth that cause the effects they do might be viewed as an evolutionary advantage

That argument doesn't hold up. If there was a designer, why all the intermediate steps, remnants of which cause problems later on. That's a stoopid design in the same way software that leaves pollution in your Windows registry and file system after you uninstall it is a stoopid design.




Hold up to what standard? Justification of a belief that I personally do not find merit in? :smirk:

My point presented to you does not involve intelligent design, it involves questioning which standard you are using to judge by.

What I consider to be an evolutionary advantage is not necessarily what you will consider to be an evolutionary advantage. The fact that lukemia creates physical suffering for some of our species can be seen as an evolutionary advantage in that it serves as the catalyst that brings ourselves to create more advanced medical technology and knowledge so that we can further sustain the lives of billions.

It is like having your own conception of what Intelligent Design would be and then comparing your own visions with what is occuring in reality, and thus proving that, since what is naturally occuring doesn't match your conception of what would be considered Intelligent Design, then Intelligent Design doesn't exist. :lol:

As I said, of what I understand of it, I have no regard for the model of Intelligent Design that is being forced upon unsuspecting students in the United States; however, I find aspects of your response to it to be baseless. Your standards with which to judge are not objective or universally accepted.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4724761 - 09/28/05 12:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Your standards with which to judge are not objective or universally accepted

They're not my standards, they are those of the proponents of Intelligent Design.

It is like having your own conception of what Intelligent Design would be and then comparing your own visions with what is occuring in reality, and thus proving that, since what is naturally occuring doesn't match your conception of what would be considered Intelligent Design, then Intelligent Design doesn't exist

Well, that's not quite what I'm doing.

My 'conception' in this context is that of the Designer (God) the folks who've put forth the Intelligent Design argument worship, and that's almost always some flavor of the standard-issue Christian God.

That particular flavor of God is all merciful, loving, caring, etc., and those qualities are inconsistent with a design that visits leukemia on children.

That's why the design is stoopid: because it causes suffering and that's in conflict with a designer who is compassionate and loving. ID is not in compliance with the system design specifications.  :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/28/05 12:34 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #4724844 - 09/28/05 12:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it.



Did you know, the mother-cell is covered deep inside the womans womb ? It stays alive a whole life of the woman, or at least she is fertile. All eggs, that come out every new moon, are a copy o this root-cell...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4724889 - 09/28/05 01:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I thought that the eggs were all there from the start, that she doesn't produce new ones... maybe I'm wrong though.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineHB
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4724983 - 09/28/05 01:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the reason humans aren't perfect seems to be for multiple reasons ...

first and foremost, it's the most egotistical thing in the entire world to believe that humans are the POINT of the universe, as if it was all built around us ... such doesn't seem to be the case ... that's pretty much electing yourself into a higher position, as if the universe is supposed to accomodate FOR you ... it's the other way around, we were TREATED to this opportunity to experience highs and lows in life ...

another thing is that perfectionism is BO-RING! contrast is ultimately ESSENTIAL to existance ... how much fun would day be if it never turned to night? what would sex and relationships be if there were only one gender? how happy could you be if you never understood sadness? how important would a beer or smoking a bowl after work to relax be if there was no work in the first place to relax from? how many drawings do you see that are merely blank pages of white? if you don't add some contrast or saturation to that page, i doubt anybody will even care ...

contrast and drama seem to be ways that the universe can play hide-and-seek with itself eternally so it never truly gets 'bored' ... for every one thing in this world, there's not only ANOTHER side, but a MILLION other sides ... it all comes down to perspective ...

these are the understandings i came to on a recent acid trip where i was confronting my lifelong and daily condition of crohn's disease, IBS and celiac disease ... i used to be so depressed ... "WHY ME!" all day every day ... but then i realized ...

reality did not create life for the PURPOSE of being happy ... pain and suffering are morally wrong as far as human's egos and attachment to happy, pain-free states goes, yet just as necessary as happiness to provide that contrast! 50/50%! the yin-yang truly is the epitome of that ...

on a yin-yang, there is white and black on either side of the circle, with it divided perfectly in half ... though not in a straight line, showing the CONVERGING of the two sides ... and within each block of white or black, there is a smaller circle of the OPPOSITE contrast, which is the 'seed' of the opposite contrast ... they work together, neither is 'good' and for that matter neither is 'bad' ... they just ARE, as far as non-ego is concerned ...

for example ... some people cheat on tests in school and have no problem doing it ... they don't believe that tests are TRUE tests of what a person is and knows, but rather just an organized way of classifying the masses into class systems using individual teacher-developed grading systems ... they are just moving towards a different goal than has been set out for them by getting the test overwith ASAP ...

and other people would never cheat, feeling that it is wholly like lying to yourself and others, and would rather get a bad grade than risk feeling terrible about it or being caught ...

are either of these perspectives WRONG as far as the universe goes? no! why would 'it' care? these are EGO concerns, not universal concerns ... it's up to the individual to make that choice, THAT is the contrast, THAT is the fun!

games aren't fun if you already know you are going to win, what makes it fun is knowing you can lose, but then try harder next time! if everybody had perfect bodies, sports would be obsolete ... if everybody had perfect relationships, they'd never have to date another person ...

it always seems to come down to nothing more than individual perspective ... the universe is eternal, but the conscious, ego-driven mind is situational and temporary ...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4725080 - 09/28/05 01:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Did you know, the mother-cell is covered deep inside the womans womb ? It stays alive a whole life of the woman, or at least she is fertile.

Not sure what that means...

Human females produce all the eggs in their ovaries by around the time of their birth. The eggs mature (usually) one at a time on a roughly 28-day cycle.

All eggs, that come out every new moon

It is not true that all women have their period on the new moon.

The period of egg releases from ovaries has nothing to do with the new moon. It is regulated by a chemical clock in the woman's body. The period of ovulation is ~28 days while the period from new moon to new moon is ~27.3 sidereal days. That's a 17 hour shift each month and an 8 day shift each year. This means that a woman's period can, and does, fall at varying times during the lunar cycle. The two are unrelated.

No offense, BC, but that such profound ignorance of elementary biology exists to this day should be a wake up call to those who want to dummy down our school science curriculum even more by introducing ID into biology classes.

are a copy o this root-cell

They are similar, but certainly not copies. If they were copies, then the mother would not contribute any genetic variation to the species, and this clearly is untrue.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/28/05 06:17 PM)


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