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Offlinerockytop83
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 588
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Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4512235 - 08/08/05 11:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

First off let me say I am a believer in creation. I just don't see how every living thing on earth came from one cell billions of years ago. And, if by chance they did, someone had to put that cell there. Also, i don't believe my soul is made of cells. But to my argument that it should be taught in public schools....

Creation isn't solely based on faith anymore. There are scientist (christian scientist) working now-a-days to prove creation. They have found facts supporting "a huge flood", factors that could determine fossils are not as old as we think, etc. Anyhoo... Why not teach this SCIENCE in school? Evolution is as unprovable as Creation, so IMO both should be taught so that no child is brainwashed to believe evolution as fact, which is whats happening.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4512335 - 08/08/05 11:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

rockytop, I appreciate your view on this subject. Not everyone here can walk that fine line between the two arguments so I am going to shut up. I probabaly fell off the fine line myself here and there too. :lol:

On a side note, if there are any home or school elementary educators here, I just picked up an awesome book about teaching with the scientific method.

I highly recommend it. Even to parents of elementary school aged children.

It's called

Nurturing Inquiry
Real Science for the Elementary Classroom
by Charles R Pearce

It's brilliant and insightful! A lot can be applied to parenting as well.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4512388 - 08/09/05 12:09 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

rockytop83 said:
First off let me say I am a believer in creation. I just don't see how every living thing on earth came from one cell billions of years ago. And, if by chance they did, someone had to put that cell there. Also, i don't believe my soul is made of cells. But to my argument that it should be taught in public schools....

Creation isn't solely based on faith anymore. There are scientist (christian scientist) working now-a-days to prove creation. They have found facts supporting "a huge flood", factors that could determine fossils are not as old as we think, etc. Anyhoo... Why not teach this SCIENCE in school? Evolution is as unprovable as Creation, so IMO both should be taught so that no child is brainwashed to believe evolution as fact, which is whats happening.




Someone had to put that cell there eh? Then who put that "someone" there? If your logic says that there must be a creator to life, then why is there not a creator to the creator? And so on to infinity.

No religious person has been able to answer this question. They've called me a heretic for continuously asking it as they try to dodge it, but simply put the rest in their "faith". However, the first paragraph is your personal beliefs, so isn't significant to the school system inclusion argument.

Quote:

They have found facts supporting "a huge flood", factors that could determine fossils are not as old as we think, etc.




...so? I believe there's been floods, meteorite strikes, volcano eruptions, earthquakes, and overall destruction throughout the earth's entire history. It's a possibility a massive flood did affect humanity. The Bible may have some grains of history in all the bullshit, no one's denying this, but it's not what the argument's about.

Quote:

Anyhoo... Why not teach this SCIENCE in school? Evolution is as unprovable as Creation, so IMO both should be taught so that no child is brainwashed to believe evolution as fact, which is whats happening.




Because this "SCIENCE" is just a few facts and biases from scientists. Intelligent design is not science; some scientists may have been able to point out flaws with some datings of some fossils, but the fossils are nevertheless there and much older than 6,000 years. Evolution is unprovable? Evolution is nearly fact in the scientific world, because it is one of the greatest theories to ever come along. We can see evolution working with viruses even in a relatively short time, as some mutations allow viruses to resist antibiotics and then reproduce to make the whole strain immune.

If you believe in genetics and mutations, which any sane and educated person will, then I can't see how you can possibly discredit evolution. All of genetics, mutations, genetic shift, the founder effect, the behaviors we see in viruses and bacteria, the basic logic of it all points to evolution. What points to intelligent design? A few simple human fears and prejudices at most.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4512469 - 08/09/05 12:28 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Chocolate!


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Offlinerockytop83
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Registered: 01/21/04
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4512480 - 08/09/05 12:30 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Evolution is nearly fact in the scientific world, because it is one of the greatest theories to ever come along. We can see evolution working with viruses even in a relatively short time, as some mutations allow viruses to resist antibiotics and then reproduce to make the whole strain immune.




Evolution is not nearly FACT in the scientific world. In FACT, you couldn't be further from the truth.

Also, I'm not saying I don't believe things evolve. In fact, I know things are evolving everyday. That's not what were talking about here. What we are trying to argue is how earth began. You cannot rule out the possibility that there is a "higher being" simply because some viruses resist antibiotics.


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~You know that same rowdy crowd was here last night is back again~


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4512531 - 08/09/05 12:45 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You cannot rule out the possibility that there is a "higher being" simply because some viruses resist antibiotics.




I can't rule out that aliens created us either. But in science, we use Occam's razor (or at least some of us do) which means that we don't fill up theories with unnecessary components that are not supported by the evidence. Intelligent design does exactly this; a few rogue scientists claim that fossil testing has problems and add a couple other facts, then make this huge jump to intelligent design through it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4513959 - 08/09/05 12:13 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

rockytop83 said:
Evolution is not nearly FACT in the scientific world. In FACT, you couldn't be further from the truth.



Between evolution and creationism, evolution is the only idea that has made testable predictions, which is why it is a scientific theory and creation is not. These testable predictions have been supported by the evidence, while creationism merely looks for things that might support their dogma, without putting it to the test.

Quote:

Also, I'm not saying I don't believe things evolve. In fact, I know things are evolving everyday. That's not what were talking about here. What we are trying to argue is how earth began. You cannot rule out the possibility that there is a "higher being" simply because some viruses resist antibiotics.



And you can't rule out the possibility that a giant turtle shat out the universe. That doesn't mean it's likely. As for how the earth began, we have been able to observe other solar systems, and the things leading up to them, like supernovas. It stands to reason that if other solar systems can form in such a way, then so can ours. Furthermore, such theories are entirely consistent with our knowledge of physics, whereas a "higher being" is not. Therefore, applying Occam's Razor to the situation, it behooves us to go with the answer that is consistent with science.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: exclusive58]
    #4514093 - 08/09/05 01:18 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

They've fallen into their own dogma, which is to explain things by saying that there isn't any meaning to anything.

Huh? I don't think any scientists teach that there isn't any meaning to anything. They're teaching science, which is the study of information, not why you think magical characters wanted this stuff to happen.

If I'm teaching about gravity, and talk about what happens when you drop a rock on the ground, I don't discuss why people would drop rocks. Not because I think there's no reason for dropping rocks, but because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


As for people who say that it's a good idea to teach intelligent design because alternative theories should be presented; why do they choose the judeo-christian version? Why not give equal weight to the idea that a turtle vomited us up, or one of millions of creation stories out there?

People don't realize that there's a huge difference between a creation story and a theory. A theory is based on a long list of evidence supporting the idea, a creation story is just a story. It's not a theory, it's just something a bunch of people believe. The only thing to teach about it is the story. With evolution, the thing to teach is all the evidence.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4514130 - 08/09/05 01:28 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, if you look at the "creation scientists", you'll find that most of them aren't scientists in the fields they discuss. They tend to have PhDs in theology, not geology. Claiming that this qualifies them to study biology or geology history is a little dishonest.

Most of their arguments are nonsense, they're generally just a bunch of creative ideas for things that could have possibly happened.

Their problem is that they don't take a genuine scientific approach. When studying something, the best thing to do is gather all the evidence together, look at ALL of it, and try to figure out what happend. Creation "scientists" do the opposite, they aren't trying to figure out what happened, they've decided they already know, so they're just looking for ideas or information that backs up what they already believe, and they completely ignore anything that doesn't.

If you think you have a piece of evidence that really shows evolution to be false, present it, and I'll look into it. But do some research yourself. There are lots of sites out there that explain why many of the creation "science" arguments don't make any sense.

If you really think that there isn't evidence for evolution, read:
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html


These sites are okay too:
http://www.txtwriter.com/Backgrounders/Evolution/EVcontents.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Phluck]
    #4514146 - 08/09/05 01:32 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Their problem is that they don't take a genuine scientific approach. When studying something, the best thing to do is gather all the evidence together, look at ALL of it, and try to figure out what happend. Creation "scientists" do the opposite, they aren't trying to figure out what happened, they've decided they already know, so they're just looking for ideas or information that backs up what they already believe, and they completely ignore anything that doesn't.



Actually, that's not entirely true. You can start with a theory before you have evidence, just like Einstein did with his theory of relativity. But that theory has to make predictions which can be tested and falsified.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4514256 - 08/09/05 02:10 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The theory of relativity was still based on information that he had, he didn't just make it up out of nowhere.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4514372 - 08/09/05 02:43 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Phluck said:
Their problem is that they don't take a genuine scientific approach. When studying something, the best thing to do is gather all the evidence together, look at ALL of it, and try to figure out what happened. Creation "scientists" do the opposite, they aren't trying to figure out what happened, they've decided they already know, so they're just looking for ideas or information that backs up what they already believe, and they completely ignore anything that doesn't.



Actually, that's not entirely true. You can start with a theory before you have evidence, just like Einstein did with his theory of relativity. But that theory has to make predictions which can be tested and falsified.




Same thing with Darwin's theory. They theorized what they would find as evidence and then went looking for it to support the theory. So far, the first piece they tested to make a positive link turned up a mis match and other blunders occurred like thinking they would find the skull get larger before the jaw bone shrunk. Not what they found either. A few tried to forge one though and got away with it for decades before an authentic one was found to disprove that idea.

Watch the documentary called Ape to Human on the History channel. It's packed with scientist coming up with ideas and their trying to find things that fit to support the belief. Some were so ego attached to their beliefs they forged fossils. The peer review board approved it because they wanted England to be more ahead in the race to solve the puzzle of where humans came from then Germany.

Science is guilty of acting unscientifically as well. No need to put them up on a flawless pedastal above humanity. Thats what christians do with God.

If we want to teach kids how biology evolves why not work with proven examples like virus's or species where we have DNA matches?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4514422 - 08/09/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

First off let me say I am a believer in creation. I just don't see how...

We have covered this thousands of times. Ignorance does not equal mysticism. If I don't undertand how a car works, does that mean it is powered by demons?

Why the need to "fill in the gap" with an explanation that explains nothing?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4514552 - 08/09/05 03:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Between evolution and creationism, evolution is the only idea that has made testable predictions, which is why it is a scientific theory and creation is not. These testable predictions have been supported by the evidence, while creationism merely looks for things that might support their dogma, without putting it to the test.




I don't know of the origin of a new species brought about by evolutionary processes being observed and reproduced by humans (please enlighten me if you know of such a thing). We can look at fossil records, but this does not constitute 'testable' and does not tell us how the different species came about, only that they did come about. Our best guess is the concept of evolution. Although evolution seems to make more sense than creationism, it also seems that most people treat it as an article of faith just as much as any religious dogma. Just like religious dogma, most who believe in it fail to question it - they take it as true because it falls under the periphery of the scientific umbrella. I also see many things in life that just seem to have to be force fitted with evolutionary explanations, take the life cycle of a butterfly for instance.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4514997 - 08/09/05 06:00 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The creator created, for that its creations would fit the created.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineZephid
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4515162 - 08/09/05 06:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

There is way too much science out there for everyone to examine every theory themselves before they believe it. If you had to come to all those conclusions yourself then science would never progress because it would take more than a life time just to get to the point where we are now. Instead people chose to believe what the scientific community tell them without questioning it. People can do this because of the way the scientific community works. There are enough experts in each field that any new theory being proposed is tested and many attempts are made to disprove it before it is accepted as fact. Nothing is ever completely proven, but you can be sure that something as widely accepted as evolution is very well supported.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4515211 - 08/09/05 07:13 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know of the origin of a new species brought about by evolutionary processes being observed and reproduced by humans (please enlighten me if you know of such a thing).

Speciation has been observed both in the lab and in nature.

There is little literature on the issue because all credible biologists consider the matter settled. A biologist publishing a speciation event is like an astronomer presenting a paper suggesting the Earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around.

However, since you asked, here are a few references::

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4515229 - 08/09/05 07:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent, thanks for the link.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4515467 - 08/09/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Actually, that's not entirely true. You can start with a theory before you have evidence




Replace "theory" with "hypothesis".


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4515927 - 08/09/05 11:06 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Indeed, and I believe even the very beginning of a hypothesis has some sort of evidence, no matter how weak or flimsy. Hunches don't come out of nowhere, and neither do "educated guesses".

Unless you just randomly chose a list of hypothesises with no evidence and flipped a coin.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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