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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Stoopid Design
    #4712974 - 09/26/05 07:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There is a 'theory' going around that says the human body was designed by an intelligent entity: Intelligent Design. (Note that I use the word 'theory' loosely as the proposal doesn't meet the requirements for a theory, but that's another thread.) I don't understand how some people can come to embrace this 'theory' given the stoopid design of the human body.

For example:

-A useless and sepsis-prone appendix near the end of the gastrointestinal tract that can, and often does, become infected. In pre-surgery times, people routinely died in horrific pain from appendicitis. Today appendicitis can be fixed, if you happen to be near a hospital, but I have to wonder what incompetent member of the engineering team made this giant blunder?

-Wisdom teeth in the back of the jaw that cannot be used for chewing and that frequently grow in misaligned causing pain, inflammation, infection and in pre-surgery days, even death. Even with modern dentistry, having these useless things removed is painful. The engineer who put those there should be fired after being tortured with a dentist's drill.

-Tonsils (lymphatic nodes) in the throat of all places where they're likely to become clogged and infected. Lymph nodes have no place in a throat, especially when they could have just as easily been placed under the skin behind the neck. In that position, they'd be less likely to become infected and require removal. Another dumb-ass engineering decision that should never have been made.

-Error prone DNA transcription chemistry that causes random errors requiring even more complicated cancer-detecting chemistry to catch those errors and kill cancer cells before they become cancers. Naturally, sometimes this stoopid two-part system of transcription fucks up and voila, we have an innocent child dieing of leukemia.

-Poorly-designed skin that can't even protect well from the most prevalent type of radiation on the planet, sunlight. Why didn't they assign the alligator engineer to the human skin project? At least then the design specifications for human skin would have likely been correctly set to accommodate the sunny conditions humans are supposed to live in.

-As for lifespan, the human body ages very ungracefully. It develops all sorts of aches and pains, gets wrinkles, bad knees, arthritis and so on. A competent biochemist could have made humans last several hundred years at least, and without parts wearing out in such an undignified way.

There are more design issues I want to take up with the engineering team, but they'll have to wait because I'm off to breakfast which is yet another huge faux-pas design: requiring food three times a day rather than use an efficient, high energy-density system to power the human body. This interrupts productive work, study, and recreation about 90,000 times during the average human lifespan and requires the heartless slaughter of food animals.

Edit: Adding things as they occur to me.

My breakfast companion is diabetic; she was born that way. This is yet another giant design flaw that caused her clumsy immune system to misidentify her pancreas as a foreign body and destroy her ability to make insulin. So this stoopid design condemned her to a life absent such yummy things as pancakes and syrup for fear of losing a limb to gangrenous amputation as often happens to people with poorly-controlled diabetes.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713011 - 09/26/05 08:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

God works in mysterious ways... all of these design elements have a higher purpose that we mere mortals cannot begin to fathom...

and fairies fly out of my ass


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4713037 - 09/26/05 08:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have gas faries also. I think I eat too much fiber.

As far as intelligent design goes. Who knows :grin: That's what I like about the Taoist approch to things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713419 - 09/26/05 12:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You forgot to mention having the testicles out in the open, protected only by a thin layer of skin.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #4713442 - 09/26/05 12:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That's actually a necessity. Sperm production doesn't happen at body temp, instead it has to occur a few degrees COLDER than body temp. The reason for having them in a thin sac is that it can better control the temperature - stretch out and get really thin when the boys are too warm, or tighten up and hold the jewels closer to the body heat when they get too cold. If our testicles were internal, none of us would be fertile :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713450 - 09/26/05 12:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

(before I type anything, I think you know that I agree with you, Diploid...but I'll play devil's advocate anyway)

While a good list...none of those "prove" that humans (or anything else) wasn't created by an intelligent being. There could be reasons for all these "stupid designes" that we mere mortals are not privy to.

I mean...when you're dealing with a God, anything is possible :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: trendal]
    #4713453 - 09/26/05 12:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Unexcusable. The designer should have designed sperm capable of living at higher temperatures.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713472 - 09/26/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Diploid... if it is flaws you seek, it is flaws you will find.

If you had a brand new ferrari with one little scratch on the back bumper, wouldn't you still think "Hey, that's a pretty fucking nice car I've got there..."?

If someone built a robot that can walk, talk, think, feel, and self-balance, wouldn't you be impressed?

Or would you be too busy pointing out the fact that they should have made it out of a stronger metal... or they should have included four arms instead of two... or that it should have a place for you to keep your spare change?

Will you ever just appreciate the miracle of life without finding some little clause of a reason to dismiss the great marvel before you?

I mean... what are you looking for, man? Some fairy tale version of perfection?

You've got life... an incredibly complex system of intricate details that results in our very existance as perceiving and conscious beings. That isn't good enough? That isn't impressive? Can you not marvel at that instead of finding reasons not to?

--

I guess my point is simply that you can't draw a conclusion like 'there's no such thing as intelligent design' from the fact that there are flaws in the design.

My Mac has a few little glitches in it here and there, but I'd still call it intellegently designed.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: trendal]
    #4713488 - 09/26/05 12:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sperm production doesn't happen at body temp

You're right. All the more indication that the Designer of the universe was a moron. Had he set the 20 or so constants that define the rates of chemical reactions slightly differently and tweaked intra-atomic forces just slightly, testicles could have been stored internally where they're well protected.

Instead, he doomed all males on Earth to experience their first taste of true pain in the crotch. Very shortsighted design indeed.  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713503 - 09/26/05 12:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Very shortsighted design indeed.

Maybe he intended it as a defense mechanism for females? :grin:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4713507 - 09/26/05 12:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Diploid... if it is flaws you seek, it is flaws you will find.

I'm not seeking flaws. I'm just pointing out that if life was designed, then the designer really sucked at his job. I'd bet if I were given the job, I wouldn't have made so many glaringly obvious mistakes.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: trendal]
    #4713510 - 09/26/05 12:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe he intended it as a defense mechanism for females?

LOL!  You got me there! :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713561 - 09/26/05 12:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here another one: Siamese Twins.

Now there's a huge engineering fuckup. Occasional twins are a cool surprise, kudos to the Designer, but the functional test team really missed the ball by not catching the bug that leads to Siamese twins. I'll bet whoever was responsible for this works for Microsoft today.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713584 - 09/26/05 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I'd bet if I were given the job, I wouldn't have made so many glaringly obvious mistakes.




What qualifies as a mistake?

That's such a foolish statement.

Let's say you were designing a new computer game, the first of it's kind... with nothing to compare it to, how would you know when you made a mistake? You wouldn't. It's relative. There is no RIGHT defined yet, so how can you do it wrong?

We are the only humans that exist. To come up with flaws, you're comparing us to an imaginary race in your head that is just like humans, but without the flaws you point out.

How does this make sense?

It's like saying ducks are flawed because they don't come equipped with scuba diving equipment.

Nevermind the fact that they can swim right after they come out of the egg... without an oxygen tank strapped to their back they're obviously flawed!


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713599 - 09/26/05 12:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Do we know the use of everything ?

What about a best design to compensate and follow environmental changes and developement ?

Perhaps all those things were for the use in the past, or will be important in the future ? :grin:
But even in the now, we know too less about the funktions of everything, designed by evolution and nature.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4713649 - 09/26/05 12:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What qualifies as a mistake?

Something that detracts from the end product.

Shortcomings in the 'design' of human DNA transcription puts children with leukemia in the hospital to await a horrifically painful death with little hope for a cure.

This is a mistake in my book.  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/26/05 01:59 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4713656 - 09/26/05 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Let's say you were designing a new computer game, the first of it's kind... with nothing to compare it to, how would you know when you made a mistake? You wouldn't. It's relative. There is no RIGHT defined yet, so how can you do it wrong?

So you're saying that God (designer) was inexperienced and that's why he fucked up so much? Alright...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713693 - 09/26/05 01:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How about the atavism where some genes get 'accidently' turned on during fetal development.

Guess what this group of genes does, which is turned off in normal circumstances?

Gill slits. That's right, the individual will have 5 slits of skin on either side of their neck upon birth. They have to be sewn up so they don't get infected.

That is an interesting twist God through into the mix.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713739 - 09/26/05 01:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

picky picky


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OfflineSnip
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713794 - 09/26/05 01:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

although i agree with you more than not, just because you can't see the reason does not mean it doesn't exist.


--------------------
cross my heart and hope to die


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713797 - 09/26/05 01:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

:lol: Good post!

ID stands on equal footing with Christianity, Judaism, Islam and all other religions. Adherents of ID claim that is more "scientific" and the name attracts people who don't believe in one of the other classical religions but are on a search for some form of religion. Scientology does they same, in a total different way, but they also claim to be "scientific".

ID is the same as all other religions.

There is one question I would like to ask a very smart Christians, like our prime minister: Do you agree that if god does exist, he is a very evil guy and he hates us? Why is there so much suffering in the world? Why are people depressed? Why are there wars? Why the fuck don't we live in a world of pure ecstasy, full time and for everybody?


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OfflineSnip
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Annom]
    #4713810 - 09/26/05 01:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

maybe it is for the full experience and not just an ignorant bliss?


--------------------
cross my heart and hope to die


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713842 - 09/26/05 01:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

- Desert Toads: There are desert toads that bury themselves under the dry ground in the desert, go in hibernation mode and wait (sometimes) years for rain. Then they "wake up", reproduce in 2 days and go back in hibernation mode for another x years. Intelligent design  :tongue:  :wink:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Annom]
    #4713849 - 09/26/05 01:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Do you agree that if god does exist, he is a very evil guy and he hates us? Why is there so much suffering in the world? Why are people depressed? Why are there wars? Why the fuck don't we live in a world of pure ecstasy, full time and for everybody?

I am nor god or prrime-minister, but for sure he gave live for love.
He lets us experience all that shit, because he loves us so much.

That sounds incredible crazy, but start thinking !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Snip]
    #4713857 - 09/26/05 01:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Snip said:
maybe it is for the full experience and not just an ignorant bliss?




Full experience? Like being raped, tortured and murdered? Well done god!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Snip]
    #4713859 - 09/26/05 01:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If so, why doesn't God just create us with the 'experience' pre-imposed a la Total Recall rather than have us actually suffer so. Or is He satisfying some kind of sadistic bent with our creation?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSnip
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Annom]
    #4713894 - 09/26/05 01:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Quote:

Snip said:
maybe it is for the full experience and not just an ignorant bliss?




Full experience? Like being raped, tortured and murdered? Well done god!




i am not trying to attach positive/negative connotations to it. it is what it is. good point though


--------------------
cross my heart and hope to die


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Snip]
    #4713901 - 09/26/05 01:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

of course, interpreting fractals as intelligent is an easy mistake.
a smart result does not necessarily indicate that there was a plan in advance.

probably the smartest design for an intelligent creature is an amoeba.
completely pseudopodal - th most dreamy and flexible thing.

but once we got to the worm stage in our dark evolutionary past we were headed into smart tubular "basis" that leads to bilaterally symetrical creatures - the tube is most important because it sucks.

then it blows.

after we got sucking and blowing down pat, we learned to make these faces at eachother thus we have the darndest basis for of intelligent society imagineable.

I am calling it basis not blueprint and not design.
it is very natural for one thing to emerge from another on this basis.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4713906 - 09/26/05 01:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Do you agree that if god does exist, he is a very evil guy and he hates us? Why is there so much suffering in the world? Why are people depressed? Why are there wars? Why the fuck don't we live in a world of pure ecstasy, full time and for everybody?

I am nor god or prrime-minister, but for sure he gave live for love.
He lets us experience all that shit, because he loves us so much.

That sounds incredible crazy, but start thinking !




My life is good, I love it and I'm very happy to live. But I'm not the least happy person on this world if I look around me. Why do I have a more happy life than some others. Or do you think we all equally love/are happy with our lives at the moment we die? Is he discriminating?


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OfflineSnip
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4713955 - 09/26/05 02:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If so, why doesn't God just create us with the 'experience' pre-imposed a la Total Recall rather than have us actually suffer so. Or is He satisfying some kind of sadistic bent with our creation?




it may be more fruitful if you cease to ask 'why isn't is this way' and ask 'why is it this way'.
if we were just pre-imposed with the experience we wouldn't actually be experiencing it would we?

:smile:


--------------------
cross my heart and hope to die


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OfflineSnip
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Snip]
    #4713975 - 09/26/05 02:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

for the record, i am not a believer of 'intelligent design'.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Snip]
    #4714002 - 09/26/05 02:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

it may be more fruitful if you cease to ask 'why isn't is this way' and ask 'why is it this way'

Alright, but I think you'll prefer me in the other mode:

Why did God make it such that both humans and animals suffer so much?

I'm reminded at this point of an excerpt from an essay I read some time ago:

I do not understand where this "beauty" and "harmony" are supposed to be found. Throughout the animal kingdom, animals ruthlessly prey upon each other. Most of them are either cruelly killed by other animals or slowly die of hunger. For my part, I am unable to see any great beauty or harmony in the tapeworm. Let it not be said that this creature is sent as a punishment for our sins, for it is more prevalent among animals than among humans. -- Bertrand Russel

Maybe there's another answer to my question, but the only one I can find is that God is a sadistic asshole (or incompetent engineer). Either that, or the universe just is what it is and was not designed.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Snip]
    #4714018 - 09/26/05 02:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

if we were just pre-imposed with the experience we wouldn't actually be experiencing it would we?

But an omnipotent God could make is so pre-imposing the experience caused us to have experienced it without actually suffering the experience. If God can't do that, then he can't be the designer because the designer of the universe determines what is and what is not possible during the Functional Requirements phase of the project.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714076 - 09/26/05 02:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

although i think your partly being humorous, the idea that the human design is "stupid" is itself ludicrous. Sure we have a few seeming flaws... but if a few flaws = stupidity, then what about the billions of insanely complex and unbelievably intricate mechanisms and processes that allow us to laugh, love, dance, paint, operate computers, share complex ideas, verbalize, build, dream and design?

All im saying is if you take unnescesary apendix to equal stupid design

than it goes without saying that opposable thumbs, vocal chords, and a functioning neo cortex and insanely complex nervous system equals transcendentally ingenius design.

Im not saying god made us, and im not saying he didnt. Im just saying that your list of "flaws" is completely inconsequential when compared with a list of our infinite capacites, possibilities and abilities.

Every day i am astounded by the seeminly unlimited number of things i can do. I can dance, play hackey sack, paint a picture, make myself a sandwhich, philosophize on the meaning of my life, reminice on my past or anticipate my future, i can admire a growing tree or plant my own, i can fuck and frolic ...

Hehe... yeah. very stupid, inefectual bodies indeed.


:smirk:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineSnip
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714077 - 09/26/05 02:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i do not know why humans and animals suffer so much, but if God exists within the context of which we speak, what makes you think that you can understand his reasonings for such things?

i do see that your conclusions are somewhat valid.


--------------------
cross my heart and hope to die


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OfflineSnip
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714088 - 09/26/05 02:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

But an omnipotent God could make is so pre-imposing the experience caused us to have experienced it without actually suffering the experience.




Yes, but that is not his intent.


--------------------
cross my heart and hope to die


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714144 - 09/26/05 02:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

what the heck mite as well post this in a new thread


Edited by Moonshoe (09/26/05 02:47 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Annom]
    #4714148 - 09/26/05 02:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Is he discriminating?
As I think, sure, as every soul gets that what it has to learn, yet, in that incarnation-period.
In general, suffering and pain show us, about the cruel possibilities, that are real within the 'matrix of existence' and which are not to be wanted to be...

edit:and they show us much about the WHY.... If they did not exist, they could show us >nothing<....


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (09/26/05 02:55 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714260 - 09/26/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

All im saying is if you take unnescesary apendix to equal stupid design

than it goes without saying that opposable thumbs, vocal chords, and a functioning neo cortex and insanely complex nervous system equals transcendentally ingenius design.


Or the universe simply IS and had no designer. The rest can be explained by natural selection. The apendix and wisdom teeth have been on the selected way out for some time, and this is happening to church people and atheists alike.

Hehe... yeah. very stupid, inefectual bodies indeed

Yeah, get back to me when you develop arthritis and lose your sex drive.  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Snip]
    #4714281 - 09/26/05 03:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, but that is not his intent

Alright then, what is his intent?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleParanoidAndroid
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714353 - 09/26/05 03:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
Erowid
Every individual reacts differently to every chemical.
Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714370 - 09/26/05 03:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Or the universe simply IS and had no designer."

conceded. But what your original post said was : if we have a designer, he is stupid for the following reasons...

to which i respond, if we have a designer, he is absurdly wise and intelligent for the following reasons.

If your premise is that we have no designer, we are left to thank and be astounded by the processes of chance that were able to make us with all these capabilities. Either way we are absurdly blessed beings. (weather by chance or design)

celebrate...

:laugh:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714534 - 09/26/05 03:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Either way we are absurdly blessed beings. (weather by chance or design)

You're very optimistic.

I see a world full of shit, pain, misery, suffering, wars, oppression, and constant competition to eek out a little pleasure in a sea of torment. That is unless, in a supreme demonstration of God unfairness, you're one of the chosen few born into wealth who never wants for anything.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714576 - 09/26/05 03:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"You're very optimistic.

I see a world full of shit, pain, misery, suffering, wars, oppression, and constant competition to eek out a little pleasure in a sea of torment. That is unless in a supreme demonstration of God unfairness, you're one of the chosen few born into wealth who never wants for anything. "

see, this is the consciousness of materialism. because humans descended into this state of conscioussness they botched their part of the creation of the world. imagine how the earth would be if all human beings walked the earth in the state of consciousness of jesus chrirst. you would see a completely different world. if you raise your consciousness above the consciousness of materialism you find self existant bliss even in the face of the dream like problems of the world. as john lennon said "there are no problems, only solutions". all the problems you see are simply imagined, stop imagining them and they dissapear.


Edited by Deviate (09/26/05 03:53 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714594 - 09/26/05 03:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"That is unless in a supreme demonstration of God unfairness, you're one of the chosen few born into wealth who never wants for anything. "

lol... my life is indeed absurdly good. I am born into health and wealth and happiness. But lots of my enjoyment is the product of my own initiatives, mental attitudes and behaviours. how many kids born into absurd wealth just kill themselves with cocaine and sloth? many. How many kids born into desperation overcome and find happiness? many.


regardless i hold one thing to be universally true. The nature of our lives is far more determined by what we focus on than anything else. at this moment i could focus on an unlimited number of positive things in my experience, or on an unlimited number of negative things in my experience. I could focus on what i have, or what i dont have.

If i were to make a list of the good things in this world, i would not be able to finish it before i died.

if i were to make a list of the bad things in this world, i would not be able to finish it before i died.

Therefore, my day to day happiness is more determined by what parts of my experience i focus my attention on  than by what is actually in my experience.

Simple example: im walking to school. as i go on a daily basis to school, i pass down and out beggars lieing on the street. I see people with sad, depressed or defeated looks on their faces. i see evidence of suffering and poverty. maybe my feet hurt. maybe i woke up with a zit.

I also pass vibrant, green trees illuminated by the radiant ball of light called the sun which for no apparent reason sustains all life on this planet. i pass smiling children. I walk under a clear blue sky whose size and beauty staggers understanding.

I read the morning newspaper. I see that more rowandans have been massacerd. I see that north korea has agreed to disarm their nukes. I see a story about a woman raped and left a vegetable. I see a story about the miraculous recovery of a paralyzed boy who medical sceince said would never walk again.

I sit alone in my house. I could focus on the fact that im alone, with no friends to party with, or i could focus on the fact that i HAVE A HOUSE.

i could focus on the fact that i will die, or the fact that i am now alive.

etc, etc, etc.

If you see a world full of povery, sickness, despair and meaningless suffering, that says more about you than it does about the world.

do yourself a favour.

turn your eyes to the light.

:heart:

"all the problems you see are simply imagined, stop imagining them and they dissapear. "


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Edited by Moonshoe (09/26/05 03:57 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714711 - 09/26/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

all the problems you see are simply imagined, stop imagining them and they dissapear
uh, veto


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4714784 - 09/26/05 04:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This is why I prefer open source software.


--------------------


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4715872 - 09/26/05 07:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
So you're saying that God (designer) was inexperienced and that's why he fucked up so much? Alright...




my dad insists thats the case


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4715989 - 09/26/05 08:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

biggest problem is that intelligent design wasnt how it happened, (imo) the universal consciousness realized it could use animals and has worked with them to learn about our world, we werent designed, we came from the genetic defects of animals

most of the stuff you pointed out was used in earlier times in history (cept the lymph nodes, but they help fight off colds and waht not)

if god created us all yesterday, then yes you would be right, but thats just not how it happened


and if you remember correctly, every male is a defect of the female, but that defect allows us to reproduce, cant tell me thats a bad thing.... or maybe it is, somedays i wonder


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


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Offlineqhr0me
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: TheGus]
    #4716051 - 09/26/05 08:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheGus said:
biggest problem is that intelligent design wasnt how it happened




no one can prove that yet, but what the hell, these threads move so fast, i'm reposting mc hawking's opinion on intelligent designers  :smile:

Fuck The Creationists ps: grounds from banning the hawkman from the shroomery!-)

Trash Talk
Ah yeah, here we go again!
Damn! This is some funky shit that I be laying down on your ass.
This one goes out to all my homeys working in the field of evolutionary science.
Check it!

Verse 1
Fuck the damn creationists, those bunch of dumb-ass bitches,
every time I think of them my trigger finger itches.
They want to have their bullshit taught in public class,
Stephen J. Gould should put his foot right up their ass.
Noah and his ark, Adam and his Eve,
straight up fairy stories even children don't believe.
I'm not saying there's no god, that's not for me to say,
all I'm saying is the Earth was not made in a day.

Chorus
Fuck, fuck, fuck,
fuck the Creationists.

Trash Talk
Break it down.
Ah damn, this is a funky jam!
I'm about ready to kick this bitch back in.
Check it.

Verse 2
Fuck the damn creationists I say it with authority,
because kicking their punk asses be my paramount priority.
Them wack-ass bitches say, "evolution's just a theory",
they best step off, them brainless fools, I'll give them cause to fear me.
The cosmos is expanding every second, every day,
but their minds are shrinking as they close their eyes and pray.
They call their bullshit science like the word could give them cred,
if them bitches be scientists then cap me in the head.

Chorus

Trash Talk
Bass!
Bring that shit in!
Ah yeah, that's right, fuck them all motherfuckers.
Fucking punk ass creationists trying to set scientific thought back 400 years.
Fuck that!
If them superstitious motherfuckers want to have that kind of party,
I'm going to put my dick in the mashed potatoes.
Fucking creationists.
Fuck them.

read all about hawkman's dark rap theory at his crib!-)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4716111 - 09/26/05 08:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

imagine how the earth would be if all human beings walked the earth in the state of consciousness of jesus chrirst. you would see a completely different world

I would still see a world where the other animals, presumably by God's design, suffer unspeakably and die horribly from disease and predation, and I would see Bertrand Russel's tapeworm adding to their hapless misery.

Or do you think all these things would vanish and the world would be all meadows and bunnies if we all "raise our consciousness"?

And as for the Jesus Christ part, are you telling Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and others that their's is a fake God and only yours (Jesus) can lead us to "find self existent bliss"? :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: ParanoidAndroid]
    #4716852 - 09/26/05 10:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ParanoidAndroid said:
Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster



I love the church of the flying spaghetti monster... i wonder if they're really going to go to court to get the Kansas school board to teach Flying Spaghetti Monster origin alongside intelligent design and evolution...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4717090 - 09/26/05 11:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I dont know, sometimes i think it was either the modulor system, or the fibonacci sequence... you know, some kind of universal mathematical spiral, spawned by the infinite nature of the universe, i.e. god, you know, its source, its causal event. In any event, it was caused by some previous event. So it was kind of "created" out of some other event, for some other "reason".

Stoopid design, is like, the levi and channel system in new orleans.

Supposedly the apendix is used to filter like dirt or something? What if NEw orleans had a big appendix, that instead of sending the silt out into the ocean, it re absorbed the soil into matter, and re inforced the foundation of the city?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Zero7a1]
    #4717590 - 09/27/05 12:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"I would still see a world where the other animals, presumably by God's design, suffer unspeakably and die horribly from disease and predation, and I would see Bertrand Russel's tapeworm adding to their hapless misery."

the animals i've observed in the wild don't seem unhappy at all. the sqirrell doesn't fret about finding nuts, it simply goes out and finds nuts. if it gets eaten by something then oh well, it accepts it.

"Or do you think all these things would vanish and the world would be all meadows and bunnies if we all "raise our consciousness"?"

do i think nothing would die? no.

"And as for the Jesus Christ part, are you telling Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and others that their's is a fake God and only yours (Jesus) can lead us to "find self existent bliss"?"

where did you get that idea? buddha and the rest had raised their consciousness as well. i just used jesus christ as an example of someone who had. now imagine if all people were as compassionate as buddha.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4719526 - 09/27/05 01:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Something that detracts from the end product.




The whole point, I think, is that there is no end product. You assume that cause and effect is going to fall some perfect transition to the ideal that you yourself created (based in what? :confused:). The fact that we have wisdom teeth that cause the effects they do might be viewed as an evolutionary advantage in that it brought our conscious focus to the need for dentistry and rose awareness of the fact that we need to care and respond to our body. :lol:

Has the presence of lukemia advanced our medical technology in any way, benefiting our species and its survival by giving us more ability to medically treat our body? :smirk:

I'm glad that you feel enlightened enough to automatically assume what the purpose of every aspect of our existance is, and to then declare what the ultimate end result of it is, but I'm going to note the fact that we are continously evolving and becoming increasingly aware of the vast environment which we exist within and are an aspect of, and that the fact that there is constant change that is being undergone leaves the "end result" as absolutely uncertain. Quantam mechanics certainly brought awareness to the fact that we are bound by uncertainity. :wink:

Quote:


Shortcomings in the 'design' of human DNA transcription puts children with leukemia in the hospital to await a horrifically painful death with little hope for a cure.

This is a mistake in my book.  :thumbdown:




I consider it to be a positive benefit for our species and its survival. :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4719934 - 09/27/05 03:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.
Try thinking other thoughts. Try and change your belief system, if you have one, seems yours is pretty thick! :blush:


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Zero7a1]
    #4721829 - 09/27/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Supposedly the apendix is used to filter like dirt or something?

The appendix is considered to have no function by most scientists. It's interactions with the endocrine system, if it has any at all, is insignificant and redundant.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4721860 - 09/27/05 09:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The fact that we have wisdom teeth that cause the effects they do might be viewed as an evolutionary advantage

That argument doesn't hold up. If there was a designer, why all the intermediate steps, remnants of which cause problems later on. That's a stoopid design in the same way software that leaves pollution in your Windows registry and file system after you uninstall it is a stoopid design.

An Intelligent Design would be to create the end product, human, all set and ready to go or to make each subsequent version fully free of its predecessor's shortcomings. Surely, a Designer capable of creating a universe could have done this and in so doing spared children from suffering and dieing of leukemia.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/27/05 09:32 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: mecreateme]
    #4721874 - 09/27/05 09:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Try and change your belief system

I'd be happy to if you gave me a rational argument for doing so.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4721935 - 09/27/05 09:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Try and change your belief system

I'd be happy to if you gave me a rational argument for doing so.




I think what he means to say is that you don't think like him, so you need a little correcting.
:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722008 - 09/27/05 09:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Um...I believe there are three 'os' in the word stooopid.  :grin:

Maybe you should blame the Demiurge for all the flaws in creation. Then again, it is imperfection that separates creation from the perfection that characterizes the Pleroma [Fullness], the Godhead. Matter casts a Shadow compared to the Eternal Light. It is the Shadow which is evil.


Intelligent Design need not be attributed to "an entity." GOD is never intelligently defined as an entity or 'a' being. Creation speaks loud and clear to an incomprehensible complexity on every level from the subatomic to the macrocosmic. The systems  and backup systems in the human organism alone (on every level), not to mention the biosphere in which we are embedded is nothing short of miraculous. How comes it that you can find only imperfection in the miracle of living existence?  :confused:  The Miller experiment created some amino acids in the lab, but neither of us can create a single-cell living organism. THAT power resides in a Transcendental Reality.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722031 - 09/27/05 09:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There's something funny going on around here. :sherlock: :jester:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722171 - 09/27/05 10:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Um...I believe there are three 'os' in the word stooopid

Ooops! :wink:

Maybe you should blame the Demiurge for all the flaws in creation

The question then is who created the Demiurge so incompetent as to create the Stoopid Design, and why did his boss (God) knowingly (since he knows all) assign the job to an incompetent, eventually leading to the pitiful death of children with leukemia?

Intelligent Design need not be attributed to "an entity."

The phrase "Intelligent Design" speaks of a designer who is intelligent; that is an entity.

Creation speaks loud and clear to an incomprehensible complexity on every level

Actually, it speaks loud and clear to a beautiful simplicity. Everything you see around you is a product of only four fundamental forces.

The Miller experiment created some amino acids in the lab, but neither of us can create a single-cell living organism

That's only a matter of time:

The C. elegans nematode's one million DNA base pairs have been fully mapped. Artificially manufacturing a C. elegans embryo from base elements is today within the means of science. Only the funding to do it is lacking.

Furthermore, and this is the clincher, a new fully human-designed and manufactured nematode species that has never exited on Earth is also within our means limited only by the financial will to do it.

THAT power resides in a Transcendental Reality

As I just demonstrated, it resides in OUR reality today.

In some years, a sentient, emotional machine (something mystics claim impossible like they did with chess computers and voice recognition) will be created, and it also will reside in our reality.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722229 - 09/27/05 10:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In some years, a sentient, emotional machine (something mystics claim impossible like they did with chess computers and voice recognition) will be created, and it also will reside in our reality.




Until I find it and slaughter the unholy beast!


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722260 - 09/27/05 10:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Isn't the inelligent part subjective. Just because it is not "perfect", does not mean that it was not created properly. All of these things could have been included into the program to keep population in check, or to give humans goals to strive towards, or just for the design team to have something to watch for entertainment.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722279 - 09/27/05 10:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

AI will not be Transcendental as it will be created.

Complexity is built on simplicity, as is the novelty inherent in different snowflakes. Individuality is likewise comprised of a few 'simple' universals if one understands Buddhist Abhidhamma psychology.

Intelligent Design on a profound level recognizes that the infrastructure of Reality is at least (to use Jung's term) "psychoid." That is to say that the two sides of the coin are the physical and the psychical, and the universe is itself psychophysical. We, being of the same fabric of space-time are likewise psychophysical. Some aspects of space-time are more apt to transmit this than others - living organisms moreso than inorganic matter. I once heard music from W-VNJ radio vibrate from two overlapping rain gutters (apparently with a thin oxide layer) on my parent's house - sort of like my Germanium crystal radio. Simple analogy.

I don't know of any latter day mystics who pontificate on scientific advances. The universe is clearly not characterized exclusively by inert, inorganic, physical processes. Insofar as this is true, intelligence is built into the universe. It is not evident in a cubic foot of deep space vacuum or the lunar surface, but to evaluate tiny pieces misses the point. Intelligence IS.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4722315 - 09/27/05 10:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: daimyo]
    #4722359 - 09/27/05 10:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Actually, it speaks loud and clear to a beautiful simplicity. Everything you see around you is a product of only four fundamental forces."

perhaps it speaks elegance but why simplicity? and what if the four fundamental forces are a product of one great principle?

"As I just demonstrated, it resides in OUR reality today.

In some years, a sentient, emotional machine (something mystics claim impossible like they did with chess computers and voice recognition) will be created, and it also will reside in our reality. "

i certainly don't claim it impossible but i must ask how you can possibly claim it as true. please remind me what the test for sentience is again. that aside, the creation of a sentient machine would only further the argument for the necessity of a designer. the fact that it was designed could be inferred from its very existance.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722361 - 09/27/05 10:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How do you know it's psychophysical? I remember you making a comment a while back supporting the teaching of the Intelligent Design myth (it doesn't fit the definition of a hypothesis or theory, at least currently) so without evidence, why should the "psychoid" nature of the universe be taught? How can you confirm, test or disprove it?

The main problem with these myths is that people expect you just to take their word for it, but until there's evidence, anyone with a scientific mind will think deeper about the issue. If the entire universe is psychophysical, then how come we don't have any evidence on the psychoid portions of it? This is the entire universe after all, not just one little planet or species, so we should be able to gather something about it.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4722395 - 09/27/05 10:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Insofar as this is true, intelligence is built into the universe.



I could point to many parts of the universe(i.e. certain people) for whom intelligence does not seem to be built in.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4724106 - 09/28/05 07:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Jung had a scientific yet philosophical mind. The theory of a psychoid universe - the obverse of the purely physical fabric of space-time - can be used to account for parapsychological phenomenon like synchronicity and telepathy. It is a fabulous concept to 'assume' for the fun of it - 'as if' it truly operates. It might require two people on different solar systems to have a telepathic moment to 'prove' that the simultaneity of their thoughts 'transcends' the speed of any electromagnetic waves - their telepathy would be completely simultaneous parsecs apart. I would teach this sort of thing in grad school, not grade school. Also, if human[oid] life exists on other worlds, it is at least imaginable that dreams, fantasies, visions are communications from 'another world.' It may well be that nightmare scenarios stem from other worlds as well, not merely fabulous confabulations from our purportedly 'creative' unconscious. Perhaps we don't create everything, we receive data that we misinterpret by virtue of our big f**king egos. Just speculating, but I do proceed 'as if' the universe is psychoid, and I treat animals 'as if' they are much more intelligent and comprehending than we are given to believe as an extension of the first 'assumption' - plants too to a lesser extent.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4724179 - 09/28/05 08:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Intelligent design requires the incredibly arrogant belief that complex systems cannot exist without the intervention of something resembling our conciousness.

"Only a thinking, sentient being like us could have created us."

Maybe, just maybe we aren't as special and unique as we'd like to think we are.

Also, if it required divine intervention for us to be created, doesn't that kind of change the theory about the size of the universe meaning there must be other intelligent life? If there's an intelligent creator, and it was such a complicated project making us, maybe he just said "phew, fuck it, we only need one of these" and moved on.

If I lived on an enormous island and made stone sculptures, I wouldn't have any more time or energy to make more stone sculputres than if I lived on a tiny little island, so the size of the island wouldn't make any difference at all.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4724322 - 09/28/05 10:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Maybe, just maybe we aren't as special and unique as we'd like to think we are.



But...but...my mommy says I'm special. :hissyfit:


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4724337 - 09/28/05 10:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4724536 - 09/28/05 11:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The fact that we have wisdom teeth that cause the effects they do might be viewed as an evolutionary advantage

That argument doesn't hold up. If there was a designer, why all the intermediate steps, remnants of which cause problems later on. That's a stoopid design in the same way software that leaves pollution in your Windows registry and file system after you uninstall it is a stoopid design.




Hold up to what standard? Justification of a belief that I personally do not find merit in? :smirk:

My point presented to you does not involve intelligent design, it involves questioning which standard you are using to judge by.

What I consider to be an evolutionary advantage is not necessarily what you will consider to be an evolutionary advantage. The fact that lukemia creates physical suffering for some of our species can be seen as an evolutionary advantage in that it serves as the catalyst that brings ourselves to create more advanced medical technology and knowledge so that we can further sustain the lives of billions.

It is like having your own conception of what Intelligent Design would be and then comparing your own visions with what is occuring in reality, and thus proving that, since what is naturally occuring doesn't match your conception of what would be considered Intelligent Design, then Intelligent Design doesn't exist. :lol:

As I said, of what I understand of it, I have no regard for the model of Intelligent Design that is being forced upon unsuspecting students in the United States; however, I find aspects of your response to it to be baseless. Your standards with which to judge are not objective or universally accepted.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4724761 - 09/28/05 12:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Your standards with which to judge are not objective or universally accepted

They're not my standards, they are those of the proponents of Intelligent Design.

It is like having your own conception of what Intelligent Design would be and then comparing your own visions with what is occuring in reality, and thus proving that, since what is naturally occuring doesn't match your conception of what would be considered Intelligent Design, then Intelligent Design doesn't exist

Well, that's not quite what I'm doing.

My 'conception' in this context is that of the Designer (God) the folks who've put forth the Intelligent Design argument worship, and that's almost always some flavor of the standard-issue Christian God.

That particular flavor of God is all merciful, loving, caring, etc., and those qualities are inconsistent with a design that visits leukemia on children.

That's why the design is stoopid: because it causes suffering and that's in conflict with a designer who is compassionate and loving. ID is not in compliance with the system design specifications.  :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/28/05 12:34 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #4724844 - 09/28/05 12:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it.



Did you know, the mother-cell is covered deep inside the womans womb ? It stays alive a whole life of the woman, or at least she is fertile. All eggs, that come out every new moon, are a copy o this root-cell...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4724889 - 09/28/05 01:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I thought that the eggs were all there from the start, that she doesn't produce new ones... maybe I'm wrong though.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineHB
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4724983 - 09/28/05 01:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

the reason humans aren't perfect seems to be for multiple reasons ...

first and foremost, it's the most egotistical thing in the entire world to believe that humans are the POINT of the universe, as if it was all built around us ... such doesn't seem to be the case ... that's pretty much electing yourself into a higher position, as if the universe is supposed to accomodate FOR you ... it's the other way around, we were TREATED to this opportunity to experience highs and lows in life ...

another thing is that perfectionism is BO-RING! contrast is ultimately ESSENTIAL to existance ... how much fun would day be if it never turned to night? what would sex and relationships be if there were only one gender? how happy could you be if you never understood sadness? how important would a beer or smoking a bowl after work to relax be if there was no work in the first place to relax from? how many drawings do you see that are merely blank pages of white? if you don't add some contrast or saturation to that page, i doubt anybody will even care ...

contrast and drama seem to be ways that the universe can play hide-and-seek with itself eternally so it never truly gets 'bored' ... for every one thing in this world, there's not only ANOTHER side, but a MILLION other sides ... it all comes down to perspective ...

these are the understandings i came to on a recent acid trip where i was confronting my lifelong and daily condition of crohn's disease, IBS and celiac disease ... i used to be so depressed ... "WHY ME!" all day every day ... but then i realized ...

reality did not create life for the PURPOSE of being happy ... pain and suffering are morally wrong as far as human's egos and attachment to happy, pain-free states goes, yet just as necessary as happiness to provide that contrast! 50/50%! the yin-yang truly is the epitome of that ...

on a yin-yang, there is white and black on either side of the circle, with it divided perfectly in half ... though not in a straight line, showing the CONVERGING of the two sides ... and within each block of white or black, there is a smaller circle of the OPPOSITE contrast, which is the 'seed' of the opposite contrast ... they work together, neither is 'good' and for that matter neither is 'bad' ... they just ARE, as far as non-ego is concerned ...

for example ... some people cheat on tests in school and have no problem doing it ... they don't believe that tests are TRUE tests of what a person is and knows, but rather just an organized way of classifying the masses into class systems using individual teacher-developed grading systems ... they are just moving towards a different goal than has been set out for them by getting the test overwith ASAP ...

and other people would never cheat, feeling that it is wholly like lying to yourself and others, and would rather get a bad grade than risk feeling terrible about it or being caught ...

are either of these perspectives WRONG as far as the universe goes? no! why would 'it' care? these are EGO concerns, not universal concerns ... it's up to the individual to make that choice, THAT is the contrast, THAT is the fun!

games aren't fun if you already know you are going to win, what makes it fun is knowing you can lose, but then try harder next time! if everybody had perfect bodies, sports would be obsolete ... if everybody had perfect relationships, they'd never have to date another person ...

it always seems to come down to nothing more than individual perspective ... the universe is eternal, but the conscious, ego-driven mind is situational and temporary ...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4725080 - 09/28/05 01:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Did you know, the mother-cell is covered deep inside the womans womb ? It stays alive a whole life of the woman, or at least she is fertile.

Not sure what that means...

Human females produce all the eggs in their ovaries by around the time of their birth. The eggs mature (usually) one at a time on a roughly 28-day cycle.

All eggs, that come out every new moon

It is not true that all women have their period on the new moon.

The period of egg releases from ovaries has nothing to do with the new moon. It is regulated by a chemical clock in the woman's body. The period of ovulation is ~28 days while the period from new moon to new moon is ~27.3 sidereal days. That's a 17 hour shift each month and an 8 day shift each year. This means that a woman's period can, and does, fall at varying times during the lunar cycle. The two are unrelated.

No offense, BC, but that such profound ignorance of elementary biology exists to this day should be a wake up call to those who want to dummy down our school science curriculum even more by introducing ID into biology classes.

are a copy o this root-cell

They are similar, but certainly not copies. If they were copies, then the mother would not contribute any genetic variation to the species, and this clearly is untrue.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/28/05 06:17 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4725116 - 09/28/05 01:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

first and foremost, it's the most egotistical thing in the entire world to believe that humans are the POINT of the universe, as if it was all built around us ... such doesn't seem to be the case ... that's pretty much electing yourself into a higher position, as if the universe is supposed to accomodate FOR you ... it's the other way around, we were TREATED to this opportunity to experience highs and lows in life

Like I told FG above, I'm just using the standard proponents of ID use: a loving, caring, merciful Designer (God). If you think that standard has shortcomings, take it up with them.

All I'm doing is pointing out that such a Designer would not have designed a universe full of children dieing of leukemia unless he was incompetent.

Don't shoot the messenger...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineHB
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4725213 - 09/28/05 02:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

sorry, i guess my statement came out unexpectedly harsh :wink: when i said YOU i didn't mean to accuse specifically you of anything, i was using it generally ...

but anyway ...

as far as diseases go and all ... i've almost 100% 'cured' my supposedly incurable diseases by switching to an all-organic diet, a switch VERY FEW people will ever make ... i have severe immune deficiency (and vitamin deficiency and everything deficient) from my disorders ... and yet, every since starting my organic diet and eliminating ALL western medicines and processed foods, my disease has GONE THE FUCK AWAY with only minorly reminding me of it after eating something i shouldn't have ... and so on ...

not one western medicine doctor i knew could believe it since they dose people up the ass all the time for my conditions and nothing fixes ... why?  because the FDA wouldn't make money if everybody knew that all natural diseases have natural cures ... my diseases were CAUSED by humans and their need to save money and time making food by making food NOT food!  it was also caused by me being as gullible as the rest of society as to how truly necessary organic food is to live ...

processed food has no nutritional value WHATSOEVER ... these companies are out to make as much money as possible, not give you the best product possible ...

for example ... McDonalds, with their new advertisements ... 'now with real chicken!' ... holy god, what was in there before?  it's not god's fault himself that people decided money was more important than health when given the choice ... it's not his fault what you put in your body ... it's YOUR choice ... you are what YOU eat ...

my diet restricts me to NEVER being allowed to eat out with friends, girlfriends, etc.  i always have to make sure ahead of time i have food or i suffer and starve, or i eat processed food and have panic attacks and pain and suffering ...

this is still MY CHOICE, so god is being merciful in that he is not just saying 'screw you go to hell', he made other options for me ... i just had to go find them myself, and it took 365 days a year for 4 years to finally understand the right path for me ...

there will always be alternate paths for people in this world to not suffer, but the paths are not easy and not easy to find ... but they ARE there, and that, truly, is the mercy of god, i feel ... the eternal love i've found in the universe comes with the understanding that the love would mean nothing without the contrast of pain and suffering

just my opinions of course, my opinions still being EGO as much as i'd wish they weren't ... as players INSIDE the game, we can never see it from the outside and see god's true motives without being god himself OUTSIDE of this bubble of reality ...


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4725252 - 09/28/05 02:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If only adam and eve wouldnt have eaten the apple....


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4725263 - 09/28/05 02:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes.Sweet. :thumbup: Lot's of posts dude. You're my hero. :wink: I just checked your ratings. You're not connected to that God guy that everyone keeps talking about are you? :mushroom2:


Edited by Icelander (09/28/05 02:30 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Icelander]
    #4725470 - 09/28/05 03:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Well, that's not quite what I'm doing.

My 'conception' in this context is that of the Designer (God) the folks who've put forth the Intelligent Design argument worship, and that's almost always some flavor of the standard-issue Christian God.

That particular flavor of God is all merciful, loving, caring, etc., and those qualities are inconsistent with a design that visits leukemia on children.

That's why the design is stoopid: because it causes suffering and that's in conflict with a designer who is compassionate and loving. ID is not in compliance with the system design specifications.
"

do you realize you're just making the same old problem of evil argument which has been debated for centuries? many philosophers have considered and/or proposed answers to this question over the past several hundred years, maybe you should try to show how those answers are unacceptable rather than simply restating the
question.


"Like I told FG above, I'm just using the standard proponents of ID use: a loving, caring, merciful Designer (God). If you think that standard has shortcomings, take it up with them.

All I'm doing is pointing out that such a Designer would not have designed a universe full of children dieing of leukemia unless he was incompetent.

Don't shoot the messenger...
"

you're saying it as if you think it is some new idea that hasn't been answered or accounted for. do you think you're the first person to think of this?


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 03:21 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4725514 - 09/28/05 03:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

" Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it."

i don't follow your argument, why would it need intervention along the way? all the designer would need to do would be lay out the initial laws of existance.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4725566 - 09/28/05 03:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Has your disease completely gone away, or have you managed to severely reduce symptoms? How do you know that there wasn't some single ingredient in a food that you normally ate, one little thing that you had an allergy to or something that was making things worse?


processed food has no nutritional value WHATSOEVER ... these companies are out to make as much money as possible, not give you the best product possible ...

What do you mean it doesn't have any nutritional value whatsoever? Have you looked up the statistics? Done tests yourself to measure the vitamin/caloric/protein content of processed foods? Or are you assuming this based on the fact that your disease has gotten better?

I mean, in order for there to be no nutritional value whatsoever, the companies would have to be working to remove nutrients from the food. This would cost a lot more than simply preparing it for sale.

When people do research in medicine, say they wanted to find out if Chron's symptoms could be eliminated by not eating any processed foods, they'd start with a large group of people. Why? Because you can't assume anything based on a sample of one. There are tons of other factors at play at any single time, so we need to look at a large group, and look for noticable trends.

So we take 100 people with Chron's, and we put them on a diet like yours. But that's not enough yet, what if the belief that you're on an all organic diet is having the effect? What if it's something else about the way that the experiment is being carried out, like for example the way that the meals are all being eaten in regular portions at an exact time of day every day? We'll need a control group. Another 100 people with Chron's who will be fed essentially the same diet, only made from processed foods. The people will not know which group they are in.

Then we keep that up for a year or so, and make sure that we carefully document as much about everything as we can. Then we can look at statistics, there will always be anomalies, people who suddenly do significantly better for a while, people who do worse, but say 88% of the people with the organic diet get significantly better and 75% of the people with the other diet get significantly better. Well, that would show that there's something to the organic diet, but it's not necessarily the perfect solution.

Somehow I doubt that you've tested your theory that much.

Oh, and the McDonald's ads say "Now with real chicken breast!" Because they used to just be a bunch of mashed up dark meat.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4725601 - 09/28/05 03:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
" Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it."

i don't follow your argument, why would it need intervention along the way? all the designer would need to do would be lay out the initial laws of existance.



That's not the argument that the intelligent design crowd makes. That's more along the line of the arguments made in Deism.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4726041 - 09/28/05 05:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You do not read my meaning correctly. I am not addressing whatever conception you hold and reject about a "thinking, sentient being like us." That notion is absurd. I am addressing the 'metaphysical infrastructure' of Reality (to use my own words), and like others who share that consideration, I am positing that 'It' ([S]He) is Intelligence Itself. That contention does not apply merely to human beings, it applies to all of creation. I am coming from Intuition, not my Thinking function (according to the Jungian MBTI) when I suggest this. It is a global, expansive intuition, not arrived at by ratiocination (i.e., "exact thinking, reasoning").


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4726217 - 09/28/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

do you realize you're just making the same old problem of evil argument which has been debated for centuries? many philosophers have considered and/or proposed answers to this question over the past several hundred years, maybe you should try to show how those answers are unacceptable rather than simply restating the
question.


I'm not asking any questions. I'm pointing out that if the universe was designed and if the Designer is the standard-issue Christian God (which it is by most ID proponents' own admission) then the design (which tortures and kills little kids with leukemia) falls short of it's requirements.

If God is all loving, the design sucks. If God is a sadistic asshole, the design meets specs and ID proponents have got God all wrong. Which is it? :shrug:

you're saying it as if you think it is some new idea that hasn't been answered or accounted for. do you think you're the first person to think of this?

What does who thought of the idea have to do with the price of tea?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4726834 - 09/28/05 08:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"I'm not asking any questions. I'm pointing out that if the universe was designed and if the Designer is the standard-issue Christian God (which it is by most ID proponents' own admission) then the design (which tortures and kills little kids with leukemia) falls short of it's requirements.

If God is all loving, the design sucks. If God is a sadistic asshole, the design meets specs and ID proponents have got God all wrong. Which is it? "

so your argument rests on the premise that if God was good little children wouldn't suffer which is as i said the problem of evil. the problem with this is that we cannot prove that premise. what if there is a reason for the suffering that we don't see? most religions have postulated the concept of a "fall" in which humans lost the grace of God and that is the reason for the suffering on earth. as long as possible explanations exist we cannot say for sure that the design sucks and so your argument doesn't hold up. you're essentially saying "this isn't the type of world i would expect to see if an all loving God existed, therefore such a God does not exist." one possibility is that you are correct, the other is that your expectation is somehow off, that there is some peice of information you are lacking. the problem of evil is a fascinating issue in any philosophy that postulates an all good, all powerful God.


"What does who thought of the idea have to do with the price of tea? "

i'm saying that many people have thought of this and found ways around it, in order to make your argument stronger you need to refute any and all possible reasons evil could exist in a world created by a good God.


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 08:38 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727008 - 09/28/05 09:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

so your argument rests on the premise that if God was good little children wouldn't suffer

Nope.

I'm saying that if God is what Intelligent Design proponents say he is (all loving), then the design sucks (because it tortures children).  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineHB
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4727154 - 09/28/05 09:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Phluck --

indeed, all of my posts and every opinion i will ever have will just be that ... an opinion ...

as far as my diseases go, i have put them into remission (the crohn's, at least) but yes the celiac disease is not and will never go away ... i'm also allergic to dairy ...

on that note, however, i wasn't saying there's a cure-all for life and i've found it ... rather, i've found it for myself, which is why i try to spread to people to learn on their OWN, think for THEMSELVES and learn to trust instincts more than a majority of people saying this or that ... majority means nothing more than that a number of people said something and agreed ... at one point in history, the majority of people thought the world was flat ... and that the universe revolved around the world ... and we all know a little better now :wink:

frankly, all i endorse is people thinking for themselves, and finding solutions for their life rather than having solutions told to them or concluding anything before trying ...

had i never taken SUCH a big risk and left every western med doctor, gotten off every western medicine, quit opiates after a 3 year addiction without rehab, and changed to organic food all based on a HUNCH that told me that i could fix my diseases naturally better than any doctor ever could ...

i can say very easily at this moment i would have ODed or been dead or not cared if i died today had i continued that bullshit western path ...

everything i've learned about my disease i've learned through experience ... when you have a body as sensitive as mine and spend every waking second for 4 years+ dealing with constant issues, you learn a LOT about it ...

as far as processed food goes ... look at all the junk inside ... tell me where a natural High Fructose Corn Syrup plant with Artificial Colors and Artificial Flavors and Artificial Preservatives is and I'll agree that any of that has any place in our body ...

you're right, i DON'T have evidence and quotes to prove it ... this is my BELIEF ... my philosophy, if you will ... we come from the earth, not from a laboratory, so we can fix whatever is wrong inside using natural methods ...

i only say what i believe so people can do with it as they will ... i just believe so wholly in organic food, also based on how i used to feel pre-diagnoses ... i feel BETTER than EVER ... and that's all that matters to me ... feeling good

i've spent 4 years in purgatory with my conditions and addiction, but now that i'm beyond that, my duty is to help guide those who feel i can be beneficial and enjoy my life to the fullest ... life truly is beautiful once you find your own individual place in it ...


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4727249 - 09/28/05 10:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Nope.

I'm saying that if God is what Intelligent Design proponents say he is (all loving), then the design sucks (because it tortures children)"

how is that different from what i said minus a little summarizing on my part? my argument still applies. what if there could be a reason that an all loving God would allow children to suffer? until we can firmly rule out the possibility of there being a possible reason for it we cannot say for certain that the design sucks.


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 10:03 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727282 - 09/28/05 10:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We can say with certainty the design sucks for the children, for their families, for society and for humanity as a whole. Other than that though, we cannot say it for certain. :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727303 - 09/28/05 10:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

we cannot even say that for certain, is the "suckyness" inherent in the design or has something gone wrong on the part of humans? much of the suffering there is today happens as a result of human choices. perhaps the suffering is there so that humans can learn from to make better choices.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727326 - 09/28/05 10:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So having a useless organ God put in there like the appendix become inflammed and make the child die a painful death is humanity's fault? Why isn't it the fault of the designer for putting useless organs in there? (Since it's certainly not left over from evolution.)


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727413 - 09/28/05 10:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

the appendix could just be left over from evolution. do you expect it to just dissapear instantly when humans no longer need it?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727434 - 09/28/05 10:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There is no evolution! There's only intelligent design! Otherwise, evolution and intelligent design wouldn't be discussed as separate issues, would they? The advocates for intelligent design are saying intelligent design is a realistic alternative to evolution, not the cause of evolution.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727463 - 09/28/05 10:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i wasn't aware of that, i thought it was proven that organisms evolve/ change over time. i thought ID was the belief that evolution/the existance of complex life forms was not an "accident" but was "designed" to occur. otherwise how does it differ from creaitonism?


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 10:44 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727531 - 09/28/05 10:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It differs from creationism because it doesn't go into discussion about Adam and Eve, God creating the Earth in 7 days, etc. But it still says that life is too complex to have occured by Darwinism, and therefore an intelligent designer must have designed it.


Intelligent Design (or ID) is the controversial assertion that certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Though publicly most ID advocates state that their focus is on detecting evidence of design in nature, without regard to who or what the designer might be, in statements to their constituents and supporters nearly all state explicitly that they believe the designer to be the Christian God.

Adherents of ID claim it stands on equal footing with the current scientific theories regarding the origin of life and the origin of the universe [1]. This claim has not been accepted by the scientific community and intelligent design does not constitute a research program within the science of biology. Despite ID sometimes being referred to popularly and in the media as "Intelligent Design Theory", it is not recognized as a scientific theory and has been categorized by the mainstream scientific community as creationist pseudoscience. The National Academy of Sciences has said that Intelligent Design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because their claims cannot be tested by experiment and propose no new hypotheses of their own [2]. Critics argue that ID proponents find gaps within current evolutionary theory and fill them in with speculative beliefs, and that ID in this context may ultimately amount to the "God of the gaps" [3].

The Intelligent design movement is an organized campaign to promote ID arguments in the public sphere, primarily in the United States. The movement claims ID exposes the limitations of scientific orthodoxy, and of the secular philosophy of Naturalism. ID movement proponents allege that science, by relying upon naturalism, demands an adoption of a naturalistic philosophy that dismisses out of hand any explanation that contains a supernatural cause. Phillip E. Johnson, considered the father of the intelligent design movement and its unofficial spokesman stated that the goal of intelligent design is to cast creationism as a scientific concept:

* "Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."[19]
* "This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. It's about religion and philosophy."[20]
* "So the question is: "How to win?" That?s when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing" ?the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do."[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727609 - 09/28/05 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yes but does it say that darwinism does not occur or simply that life is too complex to have resulted from darwinism alone?


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 11:06 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727610 - 09/28/05 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
There is no evolution! There's only intelligent design! Otherwise, evolution and intelligent design wouldn't be discussed as separate issues, would they? The advocates for intelligent design are saying intelligent design is a realistic alternative to evolution, not the cause of evolution.



Actually, many of the ID crowd claim that they don't refute evolution, but simply say that evolution alone cannot explain certain complexities, and that such complexities would require intelligent design to come about. This is, of course, completely bullshit, but that's the argument.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #4727620 - 09/28/05 11:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Have you tried getting a person from the ID crowd to admit that we evolved from monkies?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727629 - 09/28/05 11:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Have you tried getting a person from the ID crowd to admit that we evolved from monkies?



I've seen someone from that crowd on the Daily Show, and he basically said what I just said. He didn't mention anything about monkeys specifically, but his assertion was that he did not oppose evolution altogether.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #4727654 - 09/28/05 11:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

From my experience, the proponents of Intelligent Design usually do not accept that humans are primates who evolved from monkies (or in more correct terms, more primitive hominoids, but who cares?). I'm sure there are some "scientists" of Intelligent Design who would want to combine the ideas of evolution and ID, but if that was the case for the school system why would ID be called an alternative to evolution? For even the ID crowd blatantly calls it an alternative to evolution, and not an explanation for evolution.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727736 - 09/28/05 11:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

as far as i know ID does believe that humans evolved from more primitive primates and i have met ID proponents who believed this. as for why its considered an alternative to evolution and not an explanation for evolution i don't know, maybe they are assuming the theory of evolution means only one thing, namely life is an accident and since they don't agree they think their idea is different from the theory of evolution.


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 11:32 PM)


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4727939 - 09/28/05 11:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Didn't evolution design these 'stoopid' features?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineKingCactus
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4728268 - 09/29/05 12:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i like my design..I dont want to be like anything else...if a person wants to bitch about how the human body is designed.....Get out more!! stop tripping so much! take on a hobby other then mycology! and look around at the world and ask yourself if you wish you come out another species.


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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4728558 - 09/29/05 01:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In general, suffering and pain show us, about the cruel possibilities, that are real within the 'matrix of existence' and which are not to be wanted to be...

A baby/fetus that dies during childbirth doesn't learn a damned thing about existence.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4728576 - 09/29/05 01:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, get back to me when you develop arthritis and lose your sex drive. 

You want me to get back to your right this instant?  :crazy2:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: KingCactus]
    #4730494 - 09/29/05 10:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)


i like my design..I dont want to be like anything else...if a person wants to bitch about how the human body is designed.....Get out more!! stop tripping so much! take on a hobby other then mycology! and look around at the world and ask yourself if you wish you come out another species.


I think you missed the point. The point isn't about self esteem, it's about the fact that the human body isn't perfect, and it isn't.

In fact, there are a wide variety of things on the human body that could be drastically improved with some simple design changes.

Did you know that humans suck at giving birth? Other primates are setup so that giving birth is pretty simple, they squat, and the baby comes out. They don't need help from anyone, and it's not common for the mother to die during childbirth.

Up until the 20th century, it was extremely common for women to die during childbirth and they needed help from others to do it.

Obviously the point isn't to mope around and complain that our bodies aren't perfect, it's to see that there are some design flaws that an intelligent designer should be able to pick up on easily.

Of course this whole argument can easily be discarded by claiming that God wanted us to be flawed for some damn reason.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4731128 - 09/29/05 01:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Of course this whole argument can easily be discarded by claiming that God wanted us to be flawed for some damn reason.




Of course, the whole concept of Intelligent Design can be discared by someone who feels they have the absolute view of what is and is not designed intelligently.

I, personally, hold to the concept of Design. Attaching "Intelligence" to Design is of no value or substance, as it is an abstraction that we have applied to the situation. A tree goes through its life cycle, standing forth from the soil and constantly interacting with the even more faceted system known as the atmosphere. That's Design, its a natural process, there isn't any conscious force necessary for that process to be undergone, there isn't any decision making happening. There is no difference from that than a human being designing a computer or manipulating its environment in other ways. Natural processes, Design.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4732289 - 09/29/05 04:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Did you know, the mother-cell is covered deep inside the womans womb ? It stays alive a whole life of the woman, or at least she is fertile.

Not sure what that means...

Human females produce all the eggs in their ovaries by around the time of their birth. The eggs mature (usually) one at a time on a roughly 28-day cycle.



primordial germ cell

Quote:

All eggs, that come out every new moon

It is not true that all women have their period on the new moon.

The period of egg releases from ovaries has nothing to do with the new moon. It is regulated by a chemical clock in the woman's body. The period of ovulation is ~28 days while the period from new moon to new moon is ~27.3 sidereal days. That's a 17 hour shift each month and an 8 day shift each year. This means that a woman's period can, and does, fall at varying times during the lunar cycle. The two are unrelated.

No offense, BC, but that such profound ignorance of elementary biology exists to this day should be a wake up call to those who want to dummy down our school science curriculum even more by introducing ID into biology classes.




Should I have said 'roughly' moon-cycle ?
As far, as a woman can influence her periodic bleeding to a specific amount of time, I thought you understood about what I spoke.

Quote:

are a copy o this root-cell

They are similar, but certainly not copies. If they were copies, then the mother would not contribute any genetic variation to the species, and this clearly is untrue.



Until u forget about mitosis, meiosis and the reconstructions after fertilisation...


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4732600 - 09/29/05 06:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Should I have said 'roughly' moon-cycle?

If that's what you meant, that's what you should have said. I can't interpolate, I can only take meaning from what you wrote, not what you were thinking.

Quote:

All eggs, that come out every new moon



I thought you understood about what I spoke.

I understood what you wrote, nothing more.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4735127 - 09/30/05 04:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Flatulence! :ass:

What the hell was the pneumatics engineer thinking! I mean, compared to the Designer of the universe, automotive engineers are clumsy at best and they've managed to design effective mufflers and emissions control systems.

Did the Designer outsource this item to a not-so-competent third-universe firm to keep costs down or what?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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