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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: buddhamind]
    #4506745 - 08/07/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Intelligent design should be taught in religion class, not biology."

Intelligent design or any religion class has no place in a public school according to the Constitution as written. Religion "class" belongs in church, at home, or at a university for those so inclined.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (08/07/05 01:34 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506749 - 08/07/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

why is that not a theory?

For something to qualify as a theory, it must be testable and falsifiable.

Can you propose a test to determine if there is a God?

Can you tell me what result of that test would qualify as falsification of the idea that there is a God?

If not, then it's not a theory. It's conjecture.

On those grounds, our own wild conjecturer, spacedragon, puts forth equally valid ideas about nature. Namely, that it's governed by trans-dimensional reptilian aliens from the center of the galaxy. See for yourself::

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3054267/an/0/page/0

Are we to teach kids his ideas too? They're supported by the same quantity and quality of evidence as is Intelligent Design.

There is an American Indian tribe whose creation myth is that the universe was created from an egg laid by a giant bird.

The Jatravartids' creation myth, conjectured Douglas Adams, is that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a giant creature they call the Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of a time they call The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief. Sounds a bit like the 2012 myth, eh?

Should we teach these ideas in biology class too? All of them are supported by the evidence as well as Intelligent Design is; specifically, there's no evidence at all to support any of them.

Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

How a theory is created is irrelevant. That it is possible to test and refute it is the only thing relevant here.

Intelligent Design is theology, not biology, and the repackaging into something that sounds scientific is a desperate attempt by mystics, who are losing ground, to convince our ignorant politicians to teach it to kids as churches empty in the wake of the rise of critical thinking.

I'm going to write a letter to the moron in Washington asking that Darwinian Evolution be required reading in Sunday school... as an alternative theory, eh?  :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506753 - 08/07/05 01:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm going to write a letter to the moron in Washington asking that Darwinian Evolution be required reading in Sunday school... as an alternative theory, eh? 

Good point.  :thumbup:


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4506754 - 08/07/05 01:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

what are you trying to disclaim anyway

That Intelligent Design is Science.

It is not. ID is theology and has no place in a biology class.  :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506817 - 08/07/05 02:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
why is that not a theory?

For something to qualify as a theory, it must be testable and falsifiable.

Can you propose a test to determine if there is a God?

Can you tell me what result of that test would qualify as falsification of the idea that there is a God?

If not, then it's not a theory. It's conjecture.

On those grounds, our own wild conjecturer, spacedragon, puts forth equally valid ideas about nature. Namely, that it's governed by trans-dimensional reptilian aliens from the center of the galaxy. See for yourself::

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3054267/an/0/page/0

Are we to teach kids his ideas too? They're supported by the same quantity and quality of evidence as is Intelligent Design.

There is an American Indian tribe whose creation myth is that the universe was created from an egg laid by a giant bird.

The Jatravartids' creation myth, conjectured Douglas Adams, is that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a giant creature they call the Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of a time they call The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief. Sounds a bit like the 2012 myth, eh?

Should we teach these ideas in biology class too? All of them are supported by the evidence as well as Intelligent Design is; specifically, there's no evidence at all to support any of them.

Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

How a theory is created is irrelevant. That it is possible to test and refute it is the only thing relevant here.

Intelligent Design is theology, not biology, and the repackaging into something that sounds scientific is a desperate attempt by mystics, who are losing ground, to convince our ignorant politicians to teach it to kids as churches empty in the wake of the rise of critical thinking.

I'm going to write a letter to the moron in Washington asking that Darwinian Evolution be required reading in Sunday school... as an alternative theory, eh?  :syringe:




so then, most of the stuff about dark matter, wormholes etc are not theories then?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506822 - 08/07/05 02:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
what are you trying to disclaim anyway

That Intelligent Design is Science.

It is not. ID is theology and has no place in a biology class.  :syringe:




Why do you immidiatley connect intelligent design with religion?
If there is such a thing as god, then the religion must step aside and let science deal with him/it


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineZephid
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506833 - 08/07/05 02:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Intelligent design is not actually an alternative to evolution. Intelligent design explains how life came to exist in the first place, where as evolution requires life to already exist in order for it to work. The atheistic alternative to intelligent design is abiogenesis, and modern science does not have a hypothesis for abiogenesis that is any better then intelligent design.

I just finished high school and there was very little mention of theories of abiogenesis in my biology classes. I really don?t think it makes much of a difference if teachers mention intelligent design right along with the other theories like meteor impact and random chance in the primordial ooze.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Zephid]
    #4506837 - 08/07/05 02:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes, intelligent design still has one question open: how did this intelligent life came into place? So the whole question of how life exists is still unsolved.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506844 - 08/07/05 02:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with would that it can be worked into "religions of the world" in a social studies class just like greeak mythology and folklore is without rocking any boats. I'd save the religions of the world study for highschool.

After reading Markos reply, I started thinking that it wouldn't hurt if when evolution is taught to get the kids using some critical skeptical thinking skills and to question it and come up with possible alternatives just to keep their thinking more open and not so rigid.

I still think that's one of the least of the problems with the public educational system. I can roll out dozens I would put before that one. Budget cuts and low teacher pay is at the top of the list.

My daughters first grade teacher said she took the job because the work schedule fit in well with her children's school schedule. wtf?

Where's the dedication and commitment to wanting children to develop of a love of learning in this woman? Like it needs to be there? NOT anymore. Florida is all about passing the FCATS and getting the kids to memorize facts. It's so sterile and flat.

learning should be about exploration and discovery and critical thinking. I would think science minded types would put that approach at the top of the list as well. It's a missing element in many schools. Some are re-realizing the importance of it and are reintroducing it. These teachers have to fight for curriculum changes in these areas. They are few.

What is so scientific about kids being told what to believe? How does that bring out the scientist in them? That approach makes the schools no better then blind faith religions.

I didn't teach my daughter about a creator God. She has picked up knowledge of others beliefs in one through friends and the tele. A handful of her friends go to private Christan schools. She asks me questions. I tell her about their beliefs, what science can prove to date and my personal beliefs and tell her that she is free to discover and explore on her own for herself.

I don't want her to develop an intolerance for religion or dogmatic thinking regarding either science or religion.

Even though science can tell us how a rainbow is formed, there is still awe and beauty in it. I want her to have a life experience full of the awe for the beauty of creation itself. We marvel at spider web designs, flower designs, architectural design, jumbo jets and our cat.

I can teach her what elements make water. Neither I or science can tell her how those elements came to be into existence. Science doesn't have it all figured out yet. Her and I stay open and questioning.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506877 - 08/07/05 02:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

so then, most of the stuff about dark matter, wormholes etc are not theories then?

Dark matter is a consequence of Supersymetry Theory and will be tested for by the new particle accelerator nearing completion at CERN, around 2007.

Wormholes are permitted by some solutions of General Relativity Theory and String Theory. Their existence can be tested for by cosmologists and astronomers by observation of the cosmos.

God cannot be seen by a telescope, nor will he/it become evident in particle accelerators or in any other type of lab. God does not qualify as a theory, and neither does Intelligent Design no matter how much theologians want it to. :noway:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Zephid]
    #4506881 - 08/07/05 02:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I just finished high school and there was very little mention of theories of abiogenesis in my biology classes.

That's the point of this thread.

If Moron gets his way, there will be equal time given to Intelligent Design. That's half the semester devoted to what amounts to Bible studies in biology class.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506896 - 08/07/05 02:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
so then, most of the stuff about dark matter, wormholes etc are not theories then?

Dark matter is a consequence of Supersymetry Theory and will be tested for by the new particle accelerator nearing completion at CERN, around 2007.

Wormholes are permitted by some solutions of General Relativity Theory and String Theory. Their existence can be tested for by cosmologists and astronomers by observation of the cosmos.

God cannot be seen by a telescope, nor will he/it become evident in particle accelerators or in any other type of lab. God does not qualify as a theory, and neither does Intelligent Design no matter how much theologians want it to. :noway:




Intelligent design does not have to include a specific god or creature. It is simply a proposal that someone or something created life on earth. Perhapse it is an experiment from a long gone alien race. In which case it does not defy any known laws of physics, nor is  it  beyond investigation and confirmation.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506903 - 08/07/05 02:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I just finished high school and there was very little mention of theories of abiogenesis in my biology classes.

That's the point of this thread.

If Moron gets his way, there will be equal time given to Intelligent Design. That's half the semester devoted to what amounts to Bible studies in biology class.




Intelligent design simply says that something created all species, it doesn't have to be christian god, nor muslim god, nor any kind of god.
you are mixing religion and philosophy here. Intelligent design just HAPPENS to be similar to christian idea of creation, it did not come from there. It came from doubting evolution


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineZephid
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506909 - 08/07/05 02:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The thing is that with out going deeply into religion there isn't half a semester of information on intelligent design to be taught. So unless they start going deeply into genesis or the equivalent in other religions (which would clearly violate the separation of church and state) intelligent design couldn't be more than a side note.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Zephid]
    #4506911 - 08/07/05 02:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One class hour is enough. First they introduce the idea, then talk about what led people to believe this, and that would be talking about all the problems of the evolution theory. That is all.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506926 - 08/07/05 02:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One hour class is enough

No problem. How does 8 AM to 9 AM Monday through Friday sound?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (08/07/05 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506944 - 08/07/05 02:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Woodie, ID takes current Evolutionary Theory, which is supported by a giant avalanche of evidence, looks for places in the theory that have not been fully resolved, and fills it in with a supernatural explanation.

Here's an analogy. We don't FULLY understand how rain forms. We know most of the deal, but way down at the bottom of it all, nobody has ever seen an atom. Saying that condensation has to do with water molecules and their constituent atoms coalescing from vapor to liquid as they climb through the atmospheric lapse rate is only a theory too, closely related to the Atomic Theory, which incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki a few decades ago.

The Atomic Theory, like Evolutionary Theory, is incomplete. We don't know all there is to know about atomic interactions, but we know that claiming rain to be God's tears is an absurdity.

This is what ID does. Instead of positing a testable idea, like a good theory must, it resorts to low blows by nit picking at Evolution and when it finds a weak spot, it says AHA! Evolution can't explain it (at the moment) so it must be God.

There are very few real biologists who believe in ID and none of them publish anything of consequence besides church leaflets; none of them publish in peer-reviewed journals. There's a good reason for this:

ID is not science. It is religion.

Perhapse it is an experiment from a long gone alien race.

Well, alright then: should we teach about the Jatravartids' Great Green Arkleseizure? How about spacedragon's Reptilian Masters? How about the Yanomami's Spirits? Where do we stop?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (08/07/05 04:02 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: exclusive58]
    #4506945 - 08/07/05 02:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They've fallen into their own dogma, which is to explain things by saying that there isn't any meaning to anything.

FALSE! Some scientists believe in meaning; others don't. Science itself has NOTHING to say on meaning as that is outside of it's realm.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506954 - 08/07/05 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT BUSH

I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design to be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

It is for this reason that Im writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. Im sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people dont understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

Im sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we dont.

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.

For your reference, I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506964 - 08/07/05 02:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What if evolution develops into 'intelligent design' ?
My problem with that term is, how can you bring that to a measurable concept to make a scientific research about it ?
Is it the percentage of adequateness of evelped beings to their surroundings ?
Strange things, what those Bush-guys bring into play...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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