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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: 3eyeswise]
    #4507313 - 08/07/05 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I say they should teach both in school.

Sure, but why discriminate?

We should also teach kids learning biology that a competing 'theory' is the Giant Spaghetti Monsters, and the Reptilian Masters, and the Great Green Arkleseizure, and the Giant White Bird, and the... :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507326 - 08/07/05 04:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Please only prooveable facts in science please :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offline3eyeswise
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507373 - 08/07/05 05:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Your point specter is??? If an explosion"big bang" made the earth ID theory states that intelligence was behind it.


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By questioning death I have found the answer to life.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: 3eyeswise]
    #4507393 - 08/07/05 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

3eyeswise said:
Your point specter is??? If an explosion"big bang" made the earth ID theory states that intelligence was behind it.




nope, ID theory is an alternative to evolution, and evolution talks about life on earth.

ID concept therefore would say that some intelligence made life on existing earth, not that it created earth or universe.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507594 - 08/07/05 06:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

nobody takes me serious...
:whocares:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineZephid
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4508612 - 08/07/05 11:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Strictly speaking, intelligent design is only describing how life first originated on this planet, but i don't think that's what Bush and his supporters have in mind. If you look at the original post it describes intelligent design as a the view that an unseen force is behind the development of life. This implies that the proponents of this theory believe that the unseen force is still playing an active role in the direction that life goes to this day. This version of the theory of intelligent design isn't just going up against equally speculative and unsupported theories of how life first started, but is actually an alternative to evolution. Clearly evolution is a much more scientifically based theory, and thus should be the one taught in science class.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4509455 - 08/08/05 04:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
No one is talking about things appearing by magic except you.

ID says that biological diversity was caused by a designer. This is the way theologians repackage God into something that sounds scientific. The designer is not in evidence (just like God), cannot be tested for (just like God), cannot be falsified (just like God), and is credited with designing every animal on Earth (just like God).

God == Magic;




so If I make a series of conscious robots, put the on an island, and then 1000 generations later they can't find evidence of me, does that mean I am magic?

Nope, I made them with my crewdriver, that's not magic



Wait what? If you did that, some robots would label you a God, others would build a boat. The argument to me is a hillarious one, ID has no backing, and thus can be discounted. Hey sure its possible, there is a possibility of it being true, that means we have to teach the idea in schools? Has the world gone insane when I wasnt looking?


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Offlinefungophiliac
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: TheCow]
    #4509584 - 08/08/05 05:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

bush doesnt have a single atom of intelligent design in his whole flaming family. if ID was correct, then fossils were put here to FUCK with us and test our faith to the creation myth. some god you have there. also if ID is assumed to be correct then it was this intelligent designer who made it ok for bush to steal our most coveted appointment of office not just once but twice. and what if somone ran a plane into the pentagon in reaction to this? well thats either more intelligent design, or an attack on the righteous deserving of retaliation to the magnitude of ten times. at any rate. guess what. darwinism was founded upon scientific principles. ID pokes holes in science. enough said.

but one more thing. science also says global warming is a real and serious threat to the lives of all ecosystems on this planet. what does bush and most other supporters of ID say? no problem here. my dick is bigger than global warming and it doesnt exist for me. if it did, as the owner of exxon mobile, i would have to concede to the fact that burning extreme amounts of FOSSIL fuels has scientifically shown to increase the levels of "greenhouse" gases thereby influencing weather trends over time. thank god these fossils were just put here to FUCK with us and dont really cause global warming
ciao


--------------------
why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: fungophiliac]
    #4510291 - 08/08/05 01:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How can someone teach something in science-class what is not scientifically proveable ?
Wow, back to the old days...
My god has made a more intelligent design than yours :cuckoo:

(THOR, reach me your hammer please! :crazy2:)
:starwars: :jedi: :duel: :jedi: :starwars: :jedi:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4510317 - 08/08/05 02:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
why is that not a theory?
Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

For example. In biology in high school we were taught the theory of how life came into place, but we were also taught that life could have came to earth from space, in form of an asteroid or something, as an alternative theory. Such alternative theory does not have any evidence or leads, but it was taught only by logic of what is possible.

Intelligence is possible, act of creation of new breeds by genetic manipulation, or in theory genetic sequencing is possible, so why is it not possible that intelligence created life on earth?




A theory needs evidence and has to come about from a logical conclusion. And most importantly, a theory needs to be able to be disproven through science, otherwise it is not part of science. And even if life did come to earth from another planet on an asteroid, that's simply a possibility that fits right into Darwinism and evolution. It in no way contradicts evolution, despite being just a hypothetical situation.

Evolution is a theory, and a very strong one at that. While it's still called a theory, most scientists and intelligent people believe it, and I seriously doubt there's any way Darwinism will be disproven, seeing as there's no logical alternatives yet discovered.

Now let's look at this bullshit "intelligent design": No evidence (simply prejudices, saying everything's too complex for science), no logic involving science, and no way to be disproven using science. ID is what we call "pseudoscience" and sprung from beliefs that should've been chucked out the window when we stopped burning people alive for being witches.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4510653 - 08/08/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, thanks ravus, it starts sickering into my mind :smile:
What if Bush will show some concept to evaluate ID into measurable items ? Like: this crabs claw is mor intelligent designed, because it has success in snapping to the fish in 90% and the other crab has a dull claw, because it get only 40%, but can hold the crabwoman 5% better then the other crab with this claw but....and...
What if he tries to sum these 'fitness for the surrounding percentage' together and compares it to some environment, that who had 'designed' ??

Things getting frightening...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4510735 - 08/08/05 04:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Can someone please clear it up if Bush wants the story of Creation from the Book Of Genesis taught in biology class or if Intelligent Design just means that evolution is pretty fucking intelligent in its design and to take note of that when observing your experiments?

Take how Ravus said that most intelligent people believe in evolution.

Is there or is their not intelligence in the products of evolution then?

Where does this intelligence to determine the intelligence of evolution come from if not from Intelligent design within evolution itself?

What if intelligence is evolution and evolution is intelligence. What if they are one in the same thing?

See what I am saying?

Even still, one afternoon of critical thinking on this (not the Genesis story) in biology class would be good for the kids.

If it is about teaching the story of creation in the Book of Genesis from the Christian Bible in biology class then Bush went off his rocker. I find it difficult to believe that is what he is proposing to be implemented. That's what made me laugh.

Diploid, where did your intelligence come from? It obviously exists. You say evolution. Where did evolution come from?

The question is, did evolution create intelligence or did intelligence create evolution? We clearly have both at play.

From what I understand, we really don't know for sure which came first. Keep the question out of biology class, keep Genesis out of it for sure. It's a good one for a philosophy or critical thinking skills class.

It's a question I ask often. Where did all of this cool material stuff come from, some of it with consciousness that can create more cool material stuff with the stuff already here.

We seem to enjoy talking a lot about it in S&P. It's stimulating. Glad to here someone said they did discuss it in their HS Philosophy class.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4510790 - 08/08/05 05:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Veritas]
    #4510963 - 08/08/05 05:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

THANK YOU VERITAS! :thumbup:

In the first link, ID is not about teaching Genesis Creationism at all.

I loved the argument used with the mouse trap in the first link. Got me thinking.

If that's the stuff they want to present kids with in a science class then, hell ya I'm all for it. It may not fit in with biology, but it fits in with critical thinking when hypothesizing.

In the second skeptic link, the mood changes. It seems some people against ID keep wanting to put the word GOD over intelligent designer.

Maybe some ID people are doing that and from what I read in the first link, many do not.

I think that's where ID gets sticky and messy with many people.

Intelligent designer need not be synonymous with the Biblical God and many who support ID don't make the correlation to the Biblical God.

I can see why they want it out for that reason. If someone like Bush has an agenda to use it to prove the God of the Bible with, then he will want to prove that the words and teachings of Bible are also the truth next. Before we know it, we will be killing gays and not having sex while menstruating and ..........

I can see why people want ID out of the classroom. If proponents for it want to start covering the label of intelligent designer with more definitive ones like the Biblical God or ET's then it gets into speculation and can create a disaster.

I have no problem with it if the ambiguous label of Intelligent Designer is used. Evolution itself could turn out to be the intelligent designer that created other intelligent designers like humans.

We have evidenced, intelligence, design, and evolution.

The Biblical God and ET's are in another field of abstract /personal experience/speculation until either of them lands on lawn and stays there for all to observe, meet, test and question.

regarding the separation of Church and State, which I am all for, God and ET's belong in private schools, not public government funded schools.

It's a shame with the label overlapping related to ID because that's not where others exploring ID, some from the early 1800 wish to take it. They have no agenda for it besides figuring out how all of this stuff came to be.

I have yet to read the last link. Going to take a break and get to it later.

Thank's again for those links Veritas.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511031 - 08/08/05 06:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Can someone please clear it up if Bush wants the story of Creation from the Book Of Genesis taught in biology class or if Intelligent Design just means that evolution is pretty fucking intelligent in its design and to take note of that when observing your experiments?

Take how Ravus said that most intelligent people believe in evolution.

Is there or is their not intelligence in the products of evolution then?

Where does this intelligence to determine the intelligence of evolution come from if not from Intelligent design within evolution itself?

What if intelligence is evolution and evolution is intelligence. What if they are one in the same thing?

See what I am saying?




I may be stoned, but that still doesn't make sense.

Evolution follows Darwinism, and Darwinism has many paths. Any organism that can survive in his area not only against predators and threats, but against similar organisms that would use his resources up to the point of extinction is an organism that can survive. One possible path of this is intelligence, like in humans, but there are many others paths that have survived, possibly billions of paths. Bacteria have no intelligence, yet they survive and thrive in the same areas of humans, so intelligence is just one attribute a few organisms can have to increase their survival.

Quote:

Where does this intelligence to determine the intelligence of evolution come from if not from Intelligent design within evolution itself?




Hm? Intelligence comes from the Darwinism in evolution; it's simply a combination of many favorable genes that produce the brain into an intelligent product. I don't see how this requires any sort of "Creator".

If something as complex as life needs a Creator, doesn't something as complex as that Creator need a Creator? It's pure Christian bullshit hyped up behind the label of "intelligent" yet is actually pseudoscience that cannot be verified or disproven.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4511052 - 08/08/05 06:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You are stoned because that passage says evolution itself can be the "Creator". Are you now denying evolotion just so you can talk about why you believe in Darwism?

Thats what you just did.

Sober up and re-read what it is written.

You serve as an example I what I experienced going from the first link Veritas provided to the second link. That was watching people make assumptions about what others mean by the use of the word intelligent designer.

I said, the intelligent designer could be, the body of the nature of evolution itself.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511115 - 08/08/05 06:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
THANK YOU VERITAS! :thumbup:
If that's the stuff they want to present kids with in a science class then, hell ya I'm all for it. It may not fit in with biology, but it fits in with critical thinking when hypothesizing.

I have no problem with it if the ambiguous label of Intelligent Designer is used. Evolution itself could turn out to be the intelligent designer that created other intelligent designers like humans.

It's a shame with the label overlapping related to ID because that's not where others exploring ID, some from the early 1800 wish to take it. They have no agenda for it besides figuring out how all of this stuff came to be.




So you want to have ID in biology class, even though you have stated it does not fit in with biology.  Critical thinking?  What do you even mean by that?  Yes it is an interesting philosophical idea, this ID thing.  Certainly it is possible for ID to be true, but once again, mere possibility with NO backing, except the, wow this evolution shit is pretty wild it must have been thought up by some way intelligent motherfucker, should not be taught in school.  It is just so absurd to me to even imply that it is reasonable at all.  Evolution tries to explain something with knowledge we know to be TRUE, ID simply says, hey niggaz we dont know much of anything so i guess this shit about some intelligent god like creature could be true, hey that explains it all. 
Evolution is not concerned if some god started evolution, so it could turn out that some god started evolution, but who cares?  These slim possiblities can be instantly disregarded, as they have no backing what so ever, so saying that something 'could' turn out to be true, is amusing to me, and then say that that same thing should be taught in school, is downright scary.

Im sure all of the ID supporters are linking this to the guy in the early 1800's who supposedly came up with this theory.  Come on man, read through propaganda.  ID is religion at its core, just because some guy made a theory in the early 1800's saying that ID could be true does not mean that religion hadnt thought of that idea thousands of years earlier.  They have no agenda you say?  There agenda is to prove that a god like creature came up with everything.  They have no facts to support it at all, it is a bunch of philosophers in a room jacking themselves off, this has no place in a science class, maybe in a :whatever: class but not science.  ID implies a god, just because it was laid out in some serious sounding theory you buy it?  Use a bit of logic please.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: TheCow]
    #4511191 - 08/08/05 07:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I said, after you read the way ID is presented in the first link, it's hard to find a reason for why it shouldn't be presented in a science class.

I also said, NOT BIOLOGY, but in critical thinking when hypothesizing section of science class.

The second link is where it gets ugly and I have reason to reconsider from the impression the first link left me with.

Sorry to burst your dogmatic assumption, but there are many who consider the idea of some form of intelligence behind evolution that has NOTHING to do with the Bible or a religion or a God being.

However, for some odd reason, evolutionary glitch, some people can't seem to menatlly process and comprehend a 3rd option.

Soooooooooo for that reason, and knowing that some are using ID as religious propaganda, the proposition is an understandably sticky mess and I still feel it should be kept out of the public educational system.

If this thread is going to result in selective reading and reading comprehension problems and the twisting of words due to people who have emotional/ego attachments to beleifs in darwinism then, I'm out of this.

This isn't about darwinsim. This is about a proposition by the Pres to teach ID theory in biology class. I didn't even understand fully what ID was until I just read the links veritas provided.

We got a lot of people flapping their jaws not understanding what it is from many perspectives and what exactly is being proposed.

This thread is a classic example of why I ultimately think ID should be kept out of science class rooms. To many emotional ego over reactions that result in quick assumpting and grave misunderstandings.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511329 - 08/08/05 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I said, after you read the way ID is presented in the first link, it's hard to find a reason for why it shouldn't be presented in a science class.

I also said, NOT BIOLOGY, but in critical thinking when hypothesizing section of science class.

The second link is where it gets ugly and I have reason to reconsider from the impression the first link left me with.

Sorry to burst your dogmatic assumption, but there are many who consider the idea of some form of intelligence behind evolution that has NOTHING to do with the Bible or a religion or a God being.

However, for some odd reason, evolutionary glitch, some people can't seem to menatlly process and comprehend a 3rd option.




Could you be serious? You are saying that there are many people who believe in intelligent design who dont think of a god like being, being involved? Where does the intelligence come in then, if there is no intelligent being, then what are you even talking about?

I have read that article, it clearly states at several points that it is talking about a supernatural being, is this not a god like being? Or are you just arguing on some sort of odd semantics and wont accept that when I say god like being, and supernatural being, I mean the same thing? Could you really be that easily swayed by propaganda?
The link says, that modern day ID believers have mathematics and microbiology to support what they say. I guess thats evidence enough for you to have that presented in a publicly mandated school. Hell Id LOVE to see the math they are talking about, I can imagine it to be very similar to all the 'math' ive seen which disproves relativity, or I could post the famous 'proof' again of 1 = 2 to show you how math can be easily messed with to produce whatever result you want.

I am not twisting your words at all as you keep implying I am. You point to this article and say that it makes sense. It is not a convincing argument at all, it says that in the early 1800's some guy made a serious theory of intelligent design, then darwin came along with all his evidence, and scientists stopped taking ID seriously. It then just rants for a while, and says that modern day ID believers have facts now, which is just almost too absurd for me. Hey but if you buy that shit, then by all means teach it to your kids, math and all, me personally, I will fight to make sure that kids dont think this shit can be taken seriously at all.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: TheCow]
    #4511908 - 08/08/05 10:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

hahahha, in the same sentence you say that you are not twisting my words around, you say that I said the first link made sense.

I didn't say that. You are indeed twisting my words to argue against a phantom poster of your creation under my name.

I said, "I loved the argument used with the mouse trap analogy. It got me thinking."

In the reply after that, I then said that with examples like that, it is hard to find a reason why they shouldn't be taught in a science class under a critical thinking section.

I'm not going to waste anymore time digging up examples of how you have twisted my words completely beyond recognition to create a phantom to argue with.

I can only reply to what I said, not what you imagine I say.

Before you take on congress with this one, I suggest you calm down a bit first.

Whats funny is how hyper emotional you are getting with me, jiggy, about this topic. I have written a few times in the past I wish all Bibles could be burned. I home-school my daughter partly because I think schools are to busy teaching kids what to think instead of how to think. They teach the memorization facts and rarely involve the kids to learn from experience and testing things out for themselves "the scientific method of learning".

It would be so nice if we could find home school groups to collaborate course work with and for her to have more social interaction revolved around group projects. However, all of them in my area, 12,000 home school families, who have organized such groups, all include Bible studies in them.

That's the TURN OFF and TURN AROUND for me.

Try asking questions before making assumptions and jumping to quick conclusions about things and people. You learn more that way and don't make yourself look so foolish.

If you're so passionate about this that you are willing to fight to keep children from being taught creationism then you better start knocking on your door Cow because you have hundreds of millions of homes and parents to fight with. Same ones who voted for Bush.

If you meant that you are willing to fight just to keep them from being taught it in the pubic schools then, your time is best spent writing letters to your state senators and congressmen, not in opinionated rants on a psychedelic message board.

You have my support!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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