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Invisibletak
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intelligent design or evolution?
    #2987400 - 08/10/04 07:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I was just reading somewhere about the symbios and whatnot of the universe. Alot of people believe that because of how everything works so well together, that there must be some kind of intelligence behind the scenes.

Others seem to think that because we/anything did ever infact exist, that it was a series of evolution, and all/any possible cause/event outcomes.

Do you think everything seemlessly works together because it was planned to?

Or do you think that it was survival of the fittest, and what was presented with the right envoronment at the right time continued to exist?


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: tak]
    #2987566 - 08/10/04 07:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is hard to explain but I've always thought of it as we know life/universe exists and we know life/universe could of not existed but as it does exist maybe it couldn't possibly be any other way. For us to be thinking this question we must of come from randomness which is mainly evolution.

Its to simple to me to say everything was planned, reality is chaotic.


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Invisibletak
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: Ego Death]
    #2987653 - 08/10/04 08:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have always had trouble thinking of non-existance. Just doesnt work!

On what you said though, we exist now, and everything that happens is based on cause and effect. Things happen because of physical, and mental laws wich allow them to happen. So everything that has happend, could not have happend any other way? This goes into the question of free will. Do we really have free will, or do we make descisions based on past experience, weather, time, what we saw on TV an hour ago, and choose the best possible outcome.

If everything were to happen a given way based on a complex rule-set, then whoever wrote the rules could infact know the outcome, and reverse engineer it to provide the right starting circumstances?

Sigh. The game of life...I hope there is a big jackpot for us all in the end for playing.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: tak]
    #2988241 - 08/10/04 10:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

intelligent design or evolution?



How about intelligent design through evolution?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: tak]
    #2988262 - 08/10/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think it created itself and then evolved from there.. but that's just my opinion.


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Invisibletoad857
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: tak]
    #2988329 - 08/10/04 10:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

survival of the fittest all the way!


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2988704 - 08/10/04 11:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

intelligent design or evolution?



How about intelligent design through evolution?




booyah. :thumbup:


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: BleaK]
    #2989180 - 08/11/04 02:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you're interested in this question read "The Panda's Thumb"

Basically, it illustrates this point well.. pointing out that there are many adaptions in nature that are clearly make-shift jobs, not "best possible" but "best available" solutions to problems.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2989218 - 08/11/04 02:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You seem to be commingling the desire for truth with the desire to promote one's pre-existing paradigm.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/12/04 04:06 PM)


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Offlinesillysimon
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to reply ot your message...both...just read [Re: tak]
    #2989246 - 08/11/04 02:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Think for yourself. Question authority. Think for yourself. Through out human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact, that we do not know who we are or where we come from in this ocean of chaos. It has been the authorities, the educational, the political, the religious authorities who have attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable open-mindedness, chaotic, confused, vulnerability? to inform yourself.
It has been well known since Newton that we normally perceive less than 0.5 (one half of one) of all known pulsations. Given the appropriate conditions, certain agents can be employed to enhance any aspect of mental performance, in this sense, making it more operationally effective.
You see, culture is part of the unperturbed human mind, we are all conditioned and influenced to be a part of culture. A psychedelic drug can dissolve simplicity of cultural assumption. It is perturbation of the mind and the perturbed mind is a mind in the act of rediscovering the nature that lies outside of culture. So this tension, you might call for lack of a better word, reality actually creates a mental tension and societal constriction, a sort of sub-conscious control. Hallucinogens dissolve cultural coping [with control] and hence have a political charge among them. A political mind, unperturbed, lacks a substitution for social discovery. See our evolution, I suppose, from the animal kingdom into the human kingdom it self was catalyzed or triggered by our encounter with these hallucinogens. We are an ape with a symbiotic relationship to a mushroom and that has given us self-reflection, language, religion, and all the spectrum of effects that flow from these things, and only one can wonder how these phenomenal hallucinogens might effect our future evolution as well, they have brought us to this point and as we make our relationship to the conscious we maybe able to take control of our future evolutionary path.
Psilocybin is related to serotonin, a neurotransmitter that occurs in all life and is most concentrated in states of joy or pleasure. So there is a very close structural energy between this extremely cultural, philosophical hallucinogen and a very common basis for ordinary consciousness, serotonin, what it eats.
An individual?s personality is often marked or even transformed by their experiences under the influence of these drugs. They have had an enormous impact on shaping various cultures, mentally, spiritually, and politically as well. Indeed, the whole hippy 60?s thing happened, in part, precisely because of the new ranges of conscious experience originally kick-started into existence by the mushroom. The growing second wave of psychedelic research has likewise appeared on the account of the compelling nature of the ethnogen-inspired states of consciousness. Hallucinogens complex ordinary human brain chemistry so there?s a suggestion there that manipulation of neuro-numeral compounds and neurotransmitters and those sorts of things may in fact open the door to un-tapped areas of human potential.
The psychedelic experience results from an influx of information not normally available to us, hence ?the doors of perception being opened?, hence ?the fruit of knowledge?. Psilocybin simply highlights the boundless nature and mystical potential of the human mind, If we are interested in apprehending the ultimate nature of the reality process, then it makes sense to home in on consciousness, since consciousness represents the interface to the ?world out there? and everything imaginable. If we can understand what consciousness is, then we might also understand how consciousness is able to be transformed and whether such a transformation does indeed yield bonafied insights to the subtle nature of Nature. Nothing less than reality is up for grabs. What I eventually hope to show you is that consciousness itself is a form of information just like physical matters can be described in forms of information: that reality consist of the evolutionary flow of self-organizing information, with human consciousness occupying a significant role in the entire process. However before we can explore the exciting insights that such an informational model yields, we must first start from the beginning. That is we must look more closely at the obviously important physical relationship between psilocybin and the human brain. Now getting acquainted with the full spectrum of the psilocybin experience (and others like it), it is time to focus attention upon psilocybin?s physical modus operandi. If we can get into grips with how alkaloids like psilocybin work their spectacular effects upon the human psyche, than well be one step closer to a preliminary understanding of the nature of the conscious human mind and the underlying factors governing the switch from normal awareness to the mystical perception of an intelligent other.
Man is endowed with the gift of wizardry, a talent for discovery and invention. The discovery and invention of substances that change the way we feel and behave are among man?s special accomplishments, and like so many other products of our wizardry, these substances have the capacity to harm as well to help. The substance itself is neutral, an intricate molecular structure. Yet, ?too much? can be sickening or even deadly. It is man who decides how each substance is used, and its mans beliefs and perceptions that give this neutral substance the attribute to heal or destroy. . That might sound rather intimidating, but lets face it, getting into intimate grips with nature in order to ascertain the meaning of life, consciousness and everything that really matters was never going to be a simple experience, but I assure you it is a deeply fascinating one though.


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In the dawn my toes are cold They spread their little trinkets on the ground In the hall By the closet door They creep into my bed without sound On a cube In a plastic egg A hundred fabric figures in a pile See them march Toward me And dance across the floor trippily Little faces keep no track of time Little faces speaking out in rhyme Little faces smiling in my mind Tiny doors For walking through sticky fingers clutch forbidden things the phone For talking through Sinking ships On a foamy sea That tumbles from the motion of filthy Little hands In the dark When eyes are wide listen to secrets that I tell In a ball On tiny beds Or beneath them where the shadow people dwell moon Beams split the night Leave bars of yellow pasted on their faces As they drift into a dream


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OfflineLumocolor
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Re: to reply ot your message...both...just read [Re: sillysimon]
    #2990130 - 08/11/04 09:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting read, however, it seems as though that has been extracted from another source as it doesn't really hit home on the subject at hand. The essay is more on the history of psychedelic substances and there effect on *our* perception of existence rather than all existence and what forms that.

Quite true, there are many barriers that we must overcome in order to attempt to understand existence. However, I think that it is very dangerous to be drawing those conclusions from a substance that alters our perception of reality (in what way we, to be honest, have no idea).

How can you be so sure of a theory that is really still unknown? I am not going to assume there are more sound things to base our theories on. I just find it hard to be drawn to one side of the fence so easily.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: Swami]
    #2992868 - 08/11/04 09:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"You seem to be co-mingling the desire for truth with the desire to promote one's pre-existing paradigm. "

Not at all. It's easy to find "perfect fits" in nature if you're trying to prove some intelligent mind designed things to work together; however it's every bit as easy to find jerry-rigged body parts that have been requisitioned for uses other than what they initially evolved for.

Could it be intelligent design through evolution? That's unanswerable. It could be that things were touched by some hand at some point in the distant past to influence the way evolution would progress in order to create some certain thing in the future. Unarguable unless you want to argue over the existance of God.

My point is simply that using the fact that things seem to work so perfectly in nature as evidence of an intelligent creator is just an empty box. Things don't fit nearly perfectly, there's always some give and some rub and some change. Pandas have 6 fingers. Some large pythons have vestigal "feet" that serve no purpose.

Sometimes, humans are born with tails. That's certainly not a "best fit", nor does it well lend itself to the idea that humans were created seperately from animals -- in fact it would seem to very strongly support the idea that humans once had tails, and threw poop.


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Offlinehaunted
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2992967 - 08/11/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

maybe god created the world one second ago and all your memories and culture and civilisation were only just instantly created...

I read a creationist theory somewhere that said God created imperfection to help us in our quest for scientific knowledge, as it helped us to think outside the square.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: haunted]
    #2993117 - 08/11/04 10:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How could love be an accident?


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Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineBleaK
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2993340 - 08/11/04 11:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

accidents are not really accidents.

car accident is a good example.

its not an accident, its completly forseeable.

millions of idiots get in cars everyday..
just a matter of probability till someone hits something.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinehaunted
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: BleaK]
    #2993501 - 08/12/04 12:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

don't start talking about probabilities.

The probability of an event happening has two values:
-before it happens the probability of it happening is 0% (pre-probability)
-after it happens the probability is 100% (post-probability)

love is just an extension of our own self-awareness. It is cultural.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: haunted]
    #2993517 - 08/12/04 12:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

haunted said:
don't start talking about probabilities.

The probability of an event happening has two values:
-before it happens the probability of it happening is 0% (pre-probability)
-after it happens the probability is 100% (post-probability)

love is just an extension of our own self-awareness. It is cultural.




i dunno what that has to do with anything..


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: haunted]
    #2993523 - 08/12/04 12:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"before it happens the probability of it happening is 0% (pre-probability)"

What? That would mean the total probability of every possible action is 0%.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: tak]
    #2994208 - 08/12/04 02:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well this always seems absurd to me.

OK Imagine an "intelligence" controlling our entire universe.

Where does this intelligence exist?

This seems similar to a pitri-dish experiment IMO... Like I can control everything that goes on in this pitri dish, essentially being its "god" or "creator" or "deity" or whatever.... That still doesn't mean though that I am in control of EVERYTHING. I'm still sitting there in front of the world I've created in the pitri dish wondering "how the fuck did I get here? what the fuck is going on?"

If there is some kind of intelligence controlling all that we know, that doesn't mean that "everything" or "the universe" is under its control, because IMO that's impossible. Its still sitting there in front of its pitri dish going "wow this experiment sure is neat, but how the fuck did I get here and what the fuck is going on?"

There's always a "step back" that can be taken IMO. An "infinite" universe means to me that nothing is ever under complete control over ALL OF IT, because they are part of it too and how could one create one's SELF?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: intelligent design or evolution? [Re: tak]
    #2994333 - 08/12/04 03:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Re:
<<...Alot of people believe that because of how everything works so well together, that there must be some kind of intelligence behind the scenes....
Do you think everything seemlessly works together because it was planned to?
Or do you think that it was survival of the fittest, and what was presented with the right envoronment at the right time continued to exist? >>

as i see it there are 2 types of answer

1) the metaphysical
and
2)the scientific--for the scientific i give you a link to a good book review on what seems to be a good book

...Seems to me there is a simple way to deal with the metaphysics of these types of questions,
it involves an attack on two fronts, but each is succinct:

1)
Ask yourself why you ask.
Presumably if you go deep enough you will find that all searching/seeking is caused by the pain of separation - but it is hard to go this deep as the pain is unconscious and repressed.

The statement <<there must be some kind of intelligence>> seems to me, to be essentially a religious question, ( but mixed up with science ( <<or ... was (it) survival of the fittest>> ))
ie. is there a God, and if so what should I Believe, and how will this change my life?

2)
The second 'front' is simpler, but trickier, because the point although very small, is very sharp.
I claim that the question is essentially illogical-at first this seems crazy...but...
if god has no limits, then god is not separate from the universe
if the universe is god
then all parts of the universe = all other parts of the universe.
Also all meaning depends upon context, differences, contrasts, dimensions,subject-object, etc.
in the reality of oneness these distinctions don't matter.
All profound Eastern Metaphysical traditions acknowledge paradox - but our western Judeo-Christian type of world view is based on dualism in spite of flattering itself that it is monotheistic, this is not just an idle piece of history, but makes people more susceptible to taking seriously questions like yours. (The development of writing, agriculture, and the division of labor, capitalism/materialism and the scientific world view have also played their parts-this is a vast subject fortunately summarized in a very funny movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy")
The aim of eastern meditation systems is initially to experience the state of oness where explanations based on the opposites of language are unnecessary.
Later this state may be integrated into everyday life.
Attainment of this state is supposedly available to anyone, after years of mediation.
The experiencing of these states relives the unconscious pain of separation.
And the questions disappear.
as they say "Meditation is not what you think it is."
For more on non dualism see for example
http://www.advaita.be/
http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/magazine/vk/2000/7-3-3.asp

====================

Never-the-less science is very interesting - see Austin's review at

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutevolution/fr/UnintellDesign.htm

Austin Reed Cline

One of the most popular forms of ?scientific? creationism in America today goes under the label ?Intelligent Design.? According to supporters, this provides scientific validity to the belief that the universe was created by an intelligent being. Most working scientists disagree with this and even find the ?Intelligent Design? movement to be laughable. What, really, is this fight all about?

Title: Unintelligent Design
Author: Mark Perakh
Publisher: Prometheus Books
ISBN: 1591020840

Pro:
?? Most detailed and comprehensive critique of Intelligent Design currently available
?? Explains all of the flaws and errors in great detail, leaving no stone unturned

Con:
?? Some may find the critiques a bit harsh at times

Description:
?? Overview of the arguments and ideas upon which the "Intelligent Design" movement is based
?? Reviews many specific books and personalities, explaining where they go wrong and why
?? Describes how real science is done and why Intelligent Design is completely unscientific

........etc. for more go to the link
=======================

And now a few question of my own, for you:
of course you don't need to answer them for me....
but pondering them from time to time might shed some light...
on how/why us humans get the idea that we need permanent fixed beliefs...
and even weirder generate intense emotions if others don't share our beliefs

If everything were explained would a sense of wonder still be possible?
If your life had a defined conscious purpose would you be happier?
Would you want to be Good? Go to confession? etc.
Did you trust yourself as a child?
Did you do what you loved because you loved it?
Does lack of meaning and ambiguity cause you anxiety?
It would seem that the more meaning and purpose are defined the more one approaches
what Tim Leary called "game reality"? and the less one is in contact with the sensuous oozing wet slime of ambiguous constantly changing surprising spontaneous life...
Is that what you want?
The Nazi's knew they were right.
Seems to me a high price to pay just for avoiding existential anxiety, but that seems to be the going price.........


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