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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class
    #4505517 - 08/07/05 01:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Our president, the drooling moron, wants religion taught in science class:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usdesi054371665aug05,0,5384426.story?coll=ny-uspolitics-headlines

WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush invigorated proponents of teaching alternatives to evolution with remarks saying that schoolchildren should be taught about "intelligent design," a view of creation that promotes the idea that an unseen force is behind the development of humanity.

Although he said curriculum decisions should be made by local school districts, Bush told Texas newspaper reporters at the White House on Monday that intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution as competing theories.

"Both sides ought to be properly taught ... so people can understand what the debate is about," he said.

These comments drew sharp criticism from liberals, who said there is no scientific evidence to support intelligent design theory and no educational basis for teaching it.

Much of the scientific establishment contends intelligent design is not a tested scientific theory, but a cleverly marketed effort to introduce religious thinking to students.

But his remarks heartened conservatives who have been asking school boards and legislatures nationwide to teach students that there are gaps in the theory of evolution and explain that life's complexity is evidence of a guiding hand.

"With the president endorsing it, at the very least it makes Americans who have that position more respectable," said Gary Bauer, a Christian conservative leader who ran for president in the 2000 Republican primaries. " ... It's a view held by the majority of Americans."

John West of the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based think tank supporting intelligent design, issued a statement saying Bush "is to be commended for defending free speech on evolution, and supporting the right of students to hear about different scientific views."

Opponents of intelligent design, which a Kansas professor once derided as "creationism in a cheap tuxedo," say there is no legitimate debate. They see the case as a political battle.

Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State said that Bush, in suggesting students hear two viewpoints, "doesn't understand that one is a religious viewpoint and one is a scientific viewpoint."


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4505593 - 08/07/05 01:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The public educational system has larger problems then that one to tackle.

You know, we have a new Bush Gremlin you can use now.  :butthead:

uh huh uh huh uh huh intellignet design is uh huh uh huh cool.
You said "bush". uh huh uh huh uh huh


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4505606 - 08/07/05 01:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That's a Bush smiley? Looks like he's sporting an afro do.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4505612 - 08/07/05 01:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thats Butthead from Beavis and Butthead. never mind...........


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4505671 - 08/07/05 02:13 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Essentially there is nothing to teach about Intelligent Design. This goes back to one point I constantly harp on: when information is incomplete or unknown, then the gap is erroneously filled with a mystical explantion.

ID goes essentially like this: Cells or stars or whatever complex system, are too complicated to have arisen strictly through natural processes; therefore a supernatural process was involved.

ID is ALWAYS backward looking (ad hoc) and is never forward-looking. This is a bad sign. It doesn't explain anything and has no practical application whatsoever except to reinforce an unproven myth in some minds.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4505717 - 08/07/05 02:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Our president, the drooling moron, wants religion taught in science class:"

Yeah that guy is an idiot....why need it be discussed further....that is all there really needs to be said.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Swami]
    #4506294 - 08/07/05 09:12 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Essentially there is nothing to teach about Intelligent Design. This goes back to one point I constantly harp on: when information is incomplete or unknown, then the gap is erroneously filled with a mystical explantion.





:thumbup:
Unfortunately, scientists and biologists explain the mechanisms of nature and life as just that; mechansims. They've fallen into their own dogma, which is to explain things by saying that there isn't any meaning to anything. That is as much as a belief as the belief that everything was designed by God or whatever.

We know so much to how the way things work, we are able to explain how beings reproduce, how haploid cells make diploid cells and vice versa. Look at the complexity of the meiose (sp?), how can this be nothing other than a simple mechanism? How can one say that none of it has any meaning? How can one say that nature doesn't have any intentions?

I believe that science and religion/mysticism will one day or the other have to merge into one.


--------------------


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506397 - 08/07/05 10:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

intelligent design is not a tested scientific theory, but a cleverly marketed effort to introduce religious thinking to students.


The spin machine cranks out another gem. I just love the way they have spun "creationism" into "intelligent design". The choice of words when selling someone something are key.

Think about it, wouldn't you rather be intelligent than stupid? Wouldn't you rather have been designed by a team of God appointed MIT graduate engineers than something haphazardly created by just one God?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4506426 - 08/07/05 10:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, biology still has a big blind spot, and I see in which way Bush would like to fill it up. This could be a dangerous thing if his wish ever comes true, but the thing is, it is a blind spot that is open for anyone to fill up. Whatever Bush's decision conerning this will be, it will ultimately end up being only more propaganda.

This is something that each of us have to give our own meaning to. Lets not let someone else tell us and our kids what to believe in.

The best thing to do would be to at least mention to students that biology has a few blindspots, that Darwinism has a few contradictions, and that we only know things on the surface. I hated how in school, teachers would talk about things like if they got everything figured out already, like if all the questions have been answered. The only time a biology teacher said that there was still research to be done in one domain was with HIV and the search of a vaccination.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506452 - 08/07/05 10:58 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i have nothing against it really. i mean, what does it take? 3 seconds to teach the whole thing? the teacher merely has to say

"an alternative theory is that god designed and created all living things."

job done. with just 3 seconds wasted, intelligent design has been tought, the crazy fundies have been satisfied, and actually biology education can continue.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: exclusive58]
    #4506469 - 08/07/05 11:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"The best thing to do would be to at least mention to students that biology has a few blindspots, that Darwinism has a few contradictions, and that we only know things on the surface."

The sad reality is that in classrooms creationism is already being taught in FAVOR of evolution, even though the teacher isn't supposed to. Some teachers continue to do so.

The formal allowance of "intelligent design" (creationism) will allow every state, county, and city to teach religion in a classroom. This is prohibited by the constitution (or soon to be used to be).


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: exclusive58]
    #4506547 - 08/07/05 11:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Unfortunately, scientists and biologists explain the mechanisms of nature and life as just that; mechansims. They've fallen into their own dogma, which is to explain things by saying that there isn't any meaning to anything. That is as much as a belief as the belief that everything was designed by God or whatever.




You mean, fortunately right? Science does what it is structured to do and nothing else. Leave the other stuff for the carrion birds.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506584 - 08/07/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Our president, the drooling moron, wants religion taught in science class:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usdesi054371665aug05,0,5384426.story?coll=ny-uspolitics-headlines

WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush invigorated proponents of teaching alternatives to evolution with remarks saying that schoolchildren should be taught about "intelligent design," a view of creation that promotes the idea that an unseen force is behind the development of humanity.

Although he said curriculum decisions should be made by local school districts, Bush told Texas newspaper reporters at the White House on Monday that intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution as competing theories.

"Both sides ought to be properly taught ... so people can understand what the debate is about," he said.

These comments drew sharp criticism from liberals, who said there is no scientific evidence to support intelligent design theory and no educational basis for teaching it.

Much of the scientific establishment contends intelligent design is not a tested scientific theory, but a cleverly marketed effort to introduce religious thinking to students.

But his remarks heartened conservatives who have been asking school boards and legislatures nationwide to teach students that there are gaps in the theory of evolution and explain that life's complexity is evidence of a guiding hand.

"With the president endorsing it, at the very least it makes Americans who have that position more respectable," said Gary Bauer, a Christian conservative leader who ran for president in the 2000 Republican primaries. " ... It's a view held by the majority of Americans."

John West of the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based think tank supporting intelligent design, issued a statement saying Bush "is to be commended for defending free speech on evolution, and supporting the right of students to hear about different scientific views."

Opponents of intelligent design, which a Kansas professor once derided as "creationism in a cheap tuxedo," say there is no legitimate debate. They see the case as a political battle.

Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State said that Bush, in suggesting students hear two viewpoints, "doesn't understand that one is a religious viewpoint and one is a scientific viewpoint."




Isn't that totalitarism if you are not taught the alternative theories?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinealsey
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Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506593 - 08/07/05 12:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Isn't that totalitarism if you are not taught the alternative theories?




that's the problem. intelligent design is not a theory. no theory of intelligent design has ever been proposed. "god created stuff" is not a theory, its an unfounded statement. its certainly not biology.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: alsey]
    #4506614 - 08/07/05 12:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

why is that not a theory?
Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

For example. In biology in high school we were taught the theory of how life came into place, but we were also taught that life could have came to earth from space, in form of an asteroid or something, as an alternative theory. Such alternative theory does not have any evidence or leads, but it was taught only by logic of what is possible.

Intelligence is possible, act of creation of new breeds by genetic manipulation, or in theory genetic sequencing is possible, so why is it not possible that intelligence created life on earth?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506624 - 08/07/05 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Good for our elected idiot - it is the only good thing he's proposed.

I don't know about your self-esteem, but I feel moderately intelligent and everything I look at speaks volumes about 'supergenious,' not supernature. Intelligence is built into life, and further into order itself which we humans can make sense of symbolically and mathematically (ever study the Periodic Table of the Elements?)

Intelligence IS! Tautological perhaps, but what are you trying to disclaim anyway, an 'Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky'?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinebuddhamind
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4506660 - 08/07/05 12:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Intelligent design should be taught in religion class, not biology.


--------------------
Last night I had a dream that we went to Disneyland,
Went on all the rides, didn't have to wait in line.
I drove you to your house where we stared up at the stars
I listened to your heartbeat as I held you in my arms


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: buddhamind]
    #4506691 - 08/07/05 01:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

if you keep it to religion class, you attach it to the image of christian god, and it stays forever in mysticism.

If life on earth was created by some intelligence, it must be detached from religion, and become the subject of science. How will we ever examine this intelligence, learn how it works, how it existes if we are to keep it in limits of religion?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506701 - 08/07/05 01:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
why is that not a theory?
Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

For example. In biology in high school we were taught the theory of how life came into place, but we were also taught that life could have came to earth from space, in form of an asteroid or something, as an alternative theory. Such alternative theory does not have any evidence or leads, but it was taught only by logic of what is possible.

Intelligence is possible, act of creation of new breeds by genetic manipulation, or in theory genetic sequencing is possible, so why is it not possible that intelligence created life on earth?




Those theories are not theories in the scientific sense of the word. The theory of a scientist is based on pre-existing evidence, and hence leads to greater experimental design, which in the case of evolution has lead to evidence upon evidence in favor of that theory.

If you want to make a scientific study out of asteroids bringing all the animals to earth then ask yourself what knowledge, evidence, and observation of the current situation could result in such a theory being probable? If there is sufficient evidence to begin the testing, then the hard part begins. Dig in, and put on your science cap because you have A LOT to prove.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: looner2]
    #4506706 - 08/07/05 01:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

not animals, perhapse bacteria, which evolved into all of us


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: buddhamind]
    #4506745 - 08/07/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Intelligent design should be taught in religion class, not biology."

Intelligent design or any religion class has no place in a public school according to the Constitution as written. Religion "class" belongs in church, at home, or at a university for those so inclined.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (08/07/05 01:34 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506749 - 08/07/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

why is that not a theory?

For something to qualify as a theory, it must be testable and falsifiable.

Can you propose a test to determine if there is a God?

Can you tell me what result of that test would qualify as falsification of the idea that there is a God?

If not, then it's not a theory. It's conjecture.

On those grounds, our own wild conjecturer, spacedragon, puts forth equally valid ideas about nature. Namely, that it's governed by trans-dimensional reptilian aliens from the center of the galaxy. See for yourself::

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3054267/an/0/page/0

Are we to teach kids his ideas too? They're supported by the same quantity and quality of evidence as is Intelligent Design.

There is an American Indian tribe whose creation myth is that the universe was created from an egg laid by a giant bird.

The Jatravartids' creation myth, conjectured Douglas Adams, is that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a giant creature they call the Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of a time they call The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief. Sounds a bit like the 2012 myth, eh?

Should we teach these ideas in biology class too? All of them are supported by the evidence as well as Intelligent Design is; specifically, there's no evidence at all to support any of them.

Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

How a theory is created is irrelevant. That it is possible to test and refute it is the only thing relevant here.

Intelligent Design is theology, not biology, and the repackaging into something that sounds scientific is a desperate attempt by mystics, who are losing ground, to convince our ignorant politicians to teach it to kids as churches empty in the wake of the rise of critical thinking.

I'm going to write a letter to the moron in Washington asking that Darwinian Evolution be required reading in Sunday school... as an alternative theory, eh?  :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506753 - 08/07/05 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm going to write a letter to the moron in Washington asking that Darwinian Evolution be required reading in Sunday school... as an alternative theory, eh? 

Good point.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4506754 - 08/07/05 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

what are you trying to disclaim anyway

That Intelligent Design is Science.

It is not. ID is theology and has no place in a biology class.  :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506817 - 08/07/05 02:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
why is that not a theory?

For something to qualify as a theory, it must be testable and falsifiable.

Can you propose a test to determine if there is a God?

Can you tell me what result of that test would qualify as falsification of the idea that there is a God?

If not, then it's not a theory. It's conjecture.

On those grounds, our own wild conjecturer, spacedragon, puts forth equally valid ideas about nature. Namely, that it's governed by trans-dimensional reptilian aliens from the center of the galaxy. See for yourself::

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3054267/an/0/page/0

Are we to teach kids his ideas too? They're supported by the same quantity and quality of evidence as is Intelligent Design.

There is an American Indian tribe whose creation myth is that the universe was created from an egg laid by a giant bird.

The Jatravartids' creation myth, conjectured Douglas Adams, is that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a giant creature they call the Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of a time they call The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief. Sounds a bit like the 2012 myth, eh?

Should we teach these ideas in biology class too? All of them are supported by the evidence as well as Intelligent Design is; specifically, there's no evidence at all to support any of them.

Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

How a theory is created is irrelevant. That it is possible to test and refute it is the only thing relevant here.

Intelligent Design is theology, not biology, and the repackaging into something that sounds scientific is a desperate attempt by mystics, who are losing ground, to convince our ignorant politicians to teach it to kids as churches empty in the wake of the rise of critical thinking.

I'm going to write a letter to the moron in Washington asking that Darwinian Evolution be required reading in Sunday school... as an alternative theory, eh?  :syringe:




so then, most of the stuff about dark matter, wormholes etc are not theories then?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506822 - 08/07/05 02:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
what are you trying to disclaim anyway

That Intelligent Design is Science.

It is not. ID is theology and has no place in a biology class.  :syringe:




Why do you immidiatley connect intelligent design with religion?
If there is such a thing as god, then the religion must step aside and let science deal with him/it


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OfflineZephid
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506833 - 08/07/05 02:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Intelligent design is not actually an alternative to evolution. Intelligent design explains how life came to exist in the first place, where as evolution requires life to already exist in order for it to work. The atheistic alternative to intelligent design is abiogenesis, and modern science does not have a hypothesis for abiogenesis that is any better then intelligent design.

I just finished high school and there was very little mention of theories of abiogenesis in my biology classes. I really don?t think it makes much of a difference if teachers mention intelligent design right along with the other theories like meteor impact and random chance in the primordial ooze.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Zephid]
    #4506837 - 08/07/05 02:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yes, intelligent design still has one question open: how did this intelligent life came into place? So the whole question of how life exists is still unsolved.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506844 - 08/07/05 02:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with would that it can be worked into "religions of the world" in a social studies class just like greeak mythology and folklore is without rocking any boats. I'd save the religions of the world study for highschool.

After reading Markos reply, I started thinking that it wouldn't hurt if when evolution is taught to get the kids using some critical skeptical thinking skills and to question it and come up with possible alternatives just to keep their thinking more open and not so rigid.

I still think that's one of the least of the problems with the public educational system. I can roll out dozens I would put before that one. Budget cuts and low teacher pay is at the top of the list.

My daughters first grade teacher said she took the job because the work schedule fit in well with her children's school schedule. wtf?

Where's the dedication and commitment to wanting children to develop of a love of learning in this woman? Like it needs to be there? NOT anymore. Florida is all about passing the FCATS and getting the kids to memorize facts. It's so sterile and flat.

learning should be about exploration and discovery and critical thinking. I would think science minded types would put that approach at the top of the list as well. It's a missing element in many schools. Some are re-realizing the importance of it and are reintroducing it. These teachers have to fight for curriculum changes in these areas. They are few.

What is so scientific about kids being told what to believe? How does that bring out the scientist in them? That approach makes the schools no better then blind faith religions.

I didn't teach my daughter about a creator God. She has picked up knowledge of others beliefs in one through friends and the tele. A handful of her friends go to private Christan schools. She asks me questions. I tell her about their beliefs, what science can prove to date and my personal beliefs and tell her that she is free to discover and explore on her own for herself.

I don't want her to develop an intolerance for religion or dogmatic thinking regarding either science or religion.

Even though science can tell us how a rainbow is formed, there is still awe and beauty in it. I want her to have a life experience full of the awe for the beauty of creation itself. We marvel at spider web designs, flower designs, architectural design, jumbo jets and our cat.

I can teach her what elements make water. Neither I or science can tell her how those elements came to be into existence. Science doesn't have it all figured out yet. Her and I stay open and questioning.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506877 - 08/07/05 02:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

so then, most of the stuff about dark matter, wormholes etc are not theories then?

Dark matter is a consequence of Supersymetry Theory and will be tested for by the new particle accelerator nearing completion at CERN, around 2007.

Wormholes are permitted by some solutions of General Relativity Theory and String Theory. Their existence can be tested for by cosmologists and astronomers by observation of the cosmos.

God cannot be seen by a telescope, nor will he/it become evident in particle accelerators or in any other type of lab. God does not qualify as a theory, and neither does Intelligent Design no matter how much theologians want it to. :noway:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Zephid]
    #4506881 - 08/07/05 02:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I just finished high school and there was very little mention of theories of abiogenesis in my biology classes.

That's the point of this thread.

If Moron gets his way, there will be equal time given to Intelligent Design. That's half the semester devoted to what amounts to Bible studies in biology class.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506896 - 08/07/05 02:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
so then, most of the stuff about dark matter, wormholes etc are not theories then?

Dark matter is a consequence of Supersymetry Theory and will be tested for by the new particle accelerator nearing completion at CERN, around 2007.

Wormholes are permitted by some solutions of General Relativity Theory and String Theory. Their existence can be tested for by cosmologists and astronomers by observation of the cosmos.

God cannot be seen by a telescope, nor will he/it become evident in particle accelerators or in any other type of lab. God does not qualify as a theory, and neither does Intelligent Design no matter how much theologians want it to. :noway:




Intelligent design does not have to include a specific god or creature. It is simply a proposal that someone or something created life on earth. Perhapse it is an experiment from a long gone alien race. In which case it does not defy any known laws of physics, nor is  it  beyond investigation and confirmation.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506903 - 08/07/05 02:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I just finished high school and there was very little mention of theories of abiogenesis in my biology classes.

That's the point of this thread.

If Moron gets his way, there will be equal time given to Intelligent Design. That's half the semester devoted to what amounts to Bible studies in biology class.




Intelligent design simply says that something created all species, it doesn't have to be christian god, nor muslim god, nor any kind of god.
you are mixing religion and philosophy here. Intelligent design just HAPPENS to be similar to christian idea of creation, it did not come from there. It came from doubting evolution


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OfflineZephid
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506909 - 08/07/05 02:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The thing is that with out going deeply into religion there isn't half a semester of information on intelligent design to be taught. So unless they start going deeply into genesis or the equivalent in other religions (which would clearly violate the separation of church and state) intelligent design couldn't be more than a side note.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Zephid]
    #4506911 - 08/07/05 02:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

One class hour is enough. First they introduce the idea, then talk about what led people to believe this, and that would be talking about all the problems of the evolution theory. That is all.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506926 - 08/07/05 02:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

One hour class is enough

No problem. How does 8 AM to 9 AM Monday through Friday sound?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (08/07/05 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506944 - 08/07/05 02:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Woodie, ID takes current Evolutionary Theory, which is supported by a giant avalanche of evidence, looks for places in the theory that have not been fully resolved, and fills it in with a supernatural explanation.

Here's an analogy. We don't FULLY understand how rain forms. We know most of the deal, but way down at the bottom of it all, nobody has ever seen an atom. Saying that condensation has to do with water molecules and their constituent atoms coalescing from vapor to liquid as they climb through the atmospheric lapse rate is only a theory too, closely related to the Atomic Theory, which incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki a few decades ago.

The Atomic Theory, like Evolutionary Theory, is incomplete. We don't know all there is to know about atomic interactions, but we know that claiming rain to be God's tears is an absurdity.

This is what ID does. Instead of positing a testable idea, like a good theory must, it resorts to low blows by nit picking at Evolution and when it finds a weak spot, it says AHA! Evolution can't explain it (at the moment) so it must be God.

There are very few real biologists who believe in ID and none of them publish anything of consequence besides church leaflets; none of them publish in peer-reviewed journals. There's a good reason for this:

ID is not science. It is religion.

Perhapse it is an experiment from a long gone alien race.

Well, alright then: should we teach about the Jatravartids' Great Green Arkleseizure? How about spacedragon's Reptilian Masters? How about the Yanomami's Spirits? Where do we stop?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (08/07/05 04:02 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: exclusive58]
    #4506945 - 08/07/05 02:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

They've fallen into their own dogma, which is to explain things by saying that there isn't any meaning to anything.

FALSE! Some scientists believe in meaning; others don't. Science itself has NOTHING to say on meaning as that is outside of it's realm.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506954 - 08/07/05 02:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT BUSH

I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design to be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

It is for this reason that Im writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. Im sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people dont understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

Im sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we dont.

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.

For your reference, I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506964 - 08/07/05 02:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What if evolution develops into 'intelligent design' ?
My problem with that term is, how can you bring that to a measurable concept to make a scientific research about it ?
Is it the percentage of adequateness of evelped beings to their surroundings ?
Strange things, what those Bush-guys bring into play...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4506965 - 08/07/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

...but I feel moderately intelligent and everything I look at speaks volumes about 'supergenious...

That is fine, but falls in the nature of poetry or appreciation of nature or... but not science, as there is NOTHING to teach.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4506981 - 08/07/05 03:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

aliens cruising around and designing life on earth is fair enough, its possible, but it doesn't really answer any questions. the problem of the aliens' origin is still there, and there's nothing to suggest that aliens have been to earth.

if you want to teach this in schools, ok. but like i said in my earlier post, it takes about 3 seconds. there's nothing to really explain, all you have to say is "its possible that aliens visited earth in the past and designed and placed the first life forms here".


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Swami]
    #4506987 - 08/07/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Taking one thoughtful look at George Bush should convince anybody that intelligent design has nothing to do with his existence.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507045 - 08/07/05 03:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Woodie, ID takes current Evolutionary Theory, which is supported by a giant avalanche of evidence, looks for places in the theory that have not been fully resolved, and fill it in with a supernatural explanation.

Here's an analogy. We don't FULLY understand how rain forms. We know most of the deal, but way down at the bottom of it all, nobody has ever seen an atom. Saying that condensation has to do with water molecules and their constituent atoms coalescing from vapor to liquid as they climb through the atmospheric laps rate is only a theory too, closely related to the Atomic Theory, which incinerated two Hiroshima and Nagasaki a few decades ago.

The Atomic Theory, like Evolutionary Theory, is incomplete. We don't know all there is to know about atomic interactions, but we know that claiming rain to be God's tears is an absurdity.

This is what ID does. Instead of positing a testable assertion like a good theory must, it resorts to low blows by nit picking at Evolution and when it finds a weak spot, it says AHA! Evolution can't explain it (at the moment) so it must be God.

There are very few real biologists who believe in ID and none of them publish anything of consequence besides church leaflets; none of them publish in peer-reviewed journals. There's a good reason for this:

ID is not science. This is religion.

Perhapse it is an experiment from a long gone alien race.

Well, alright then: should we teach about the Jatravartids' Great Green Arkleseizure? How about spacedragon's Reptilian Masters? How about the Yanomami's Spirits? Where do we stop?




what is supernatural about the act of creation? Don't we create robots?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4507050 - 08/07/05 03:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Be careful, they come from ol' suckers scool :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507069 - 08/07/05 03:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

One class hour is enough.

That's not what's being proposed. What's being proposed is equal time. This is to take the form of studying each kingdom in the biological taxa and explaining how each part of the creature's anatomy was designed to fit into its niche in the environment, appearing by magic rather than evolving from its predecessors.

This is in direct contradiction to the fossil record and the evidence from widely disparate fields of study from all over science.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507101 - 08/07/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
One class hour is enough.

That's not what's being proposed. What's being proposed is equal time. This is to take the form of studying each kingdom in the biological taxa and explaining how each part of the creature's anatomy was designed to fit into its niche in the environment, appearing by magic rather than evolving from its predecessors.

This is in direct contradiction to the fossil record and the evidence from widely disparate fields of study from all over science.





It is impossible to keep the idea scientific in such a long time,
there is little science-vise that can be said about this concept because for now it is just a thought, a possible alternative.

I think it should be mentioned as an alternative, but only in one hour, mentioned that there is no evidence of that exept unanswered questions, but that we can't rule it out compleatly.
That is enough to open minds of people

I can't imagine what would they be talking about for equal time, they could only start talking about religions, but then it's not science anymore.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507139 - 08/07/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"appearing by magic"

No one is talking about things appearing by magic except you. Intelligent design would involve some process, even if it isn't testable by our current means and knowledge. Intelligent design does not equal mysticiam.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: moog]
    #4507145 - 08/07/05 04:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
"appearing by magic"

No one is talking about things appearing by magic except you. Intelligent design would involve some process, even if it isn't testable by our current means and knowledge. Intelligent design does not equal mysticiam.




I agree


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507153 - 08/07/05 04:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Please could anybody explain to me how to measure 'intelligent design' so we could see if it is a scientific topic ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: moog]
    #4507163 - 08/07/05 04:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No one is talking about things appearing by magic except you.

ID says that biological diversity was caused by a designer. This is the way theologians repackage God into something that sounds scientific. The designer is not in evidence (just like God), cannot be tested for (just like God), cannot be falsified (just like God), and is credited with designing every animal on Earth (just like God).

God == Magic;


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4507169 - 08/07/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yes, does anyone have a brief on what is being proposed as curriculi on intelligent design theory to be taught.

It can't possibly say things appeared by magic and be taken seriously.

Why is this thread making me laugh so hard?


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4507193 - 08/07/05 04:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It can't possibly say things appeared by magic and be taken seriously.

You're not getting it. That is exactly what's being proposed: that every species popped into being instantly and all at the same time (the Genesis story). Nevermind the fossil record that clearly shows this idea to be bullshit.

Why is this thread making me laugh so hard?

I'd be laughing too if I didn't know that with the president's endorsement, the ~51% who re-elected him will sway in support of ID being taught in biology class.  :mad2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507206 - 08/07/05 04:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We could easily pop this idea out of science, if we proof, that it is not measurable !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507236 - 08/07/05 04:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You are fucking with my head Diploid. They want to teach in biology class that everything appeared instantly by magic?

What freaking planet am I on?

This proposal may be seriously taking place in some warped and ridiculous version of this reality, however, I find it hysterical. And people ask me why I home school.

if it gets passed through, parents will be yanking their kids out of public schools and putting them in non denominational private schools so fast it will make congress spin. And I say good. Then maybe America will wake up to how fucked up our public educational system is and revamp it already to get the kids back in it.

As it is, the homeschooling rates alone doubles every year. That doesn't include how many are taken out of the public system for the private.

Consider this diploid, most parents who home school and put their kids in private schools do so because they want christian values taught in the academic setting. Those make up a majority of who voted for Bush.

I voted for the Independent Party. Always do!

At least I have the option to home school. If the government wants to take that right and freedom away from me, that is the day I move out of the U.S. and hit Fiji.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/07/05 04:41 PM)


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507261 - 08/07/05 04:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
No one is talking about things appearing by magic except you.

ID says that biological diversity was caused by a designer. This is the way theologians repackage God into something that sounds scientific. The designer is not in evidence (just like God), cannot be tested for (just like God), cannot be falsified (just like God), and is credited with designing every animal on Earth (just like God).

God == Magic;




so If I make a series of conscious robots, put the on an island, and then 1000 generations later they can't find evidence of me, does that mean I am magic?

Nope, I made them with my crewdriver, that's not magic


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507282 - 08/07/05 04:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ID has nothing to do with the Genesis story ID just says that intelligence was behind evolution ,and intelligence designed the big bang but it does not take away the credit of evolution in any way.Good science observes the facts look at a car,or building,or computer,all were made with great detail and wisdom, same with life.I say they should teach both in school.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507286 - 08/07/05 04:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sadly, i am going to agree with bush on this one... WAIT!! before you flame the shit out of me, i know its absolutely absurd to teach the idea of 'intelligent design'

as a science, evolution is the closest i believe we will ever come to know where we physically came from, BUT

we do need to educate children about the dangers of religion, the fact that every religion has turned into nothing more than a power gaining tool, sadly they have been bastardized, and i think they should study the root of different world religions, not just the idea of creation. I also think they should study the different aspects of where religions came from, many of which came from entheogen use, not just a power hungry bastard.

All in all, more of a "World Religions" study rather than the idea of creation. I think that would suit the public education system much better than it is today.

And this should not be taught in associatoin with the science classes at any level, period.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: 3eyeswise]
    #4507304 - 08/07/05 04:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

3eyeswise said:
ID has nothing to do with the Genesis story ID just says that intelligence was behind evolution ,and intelligence designed the big bang but it does not take away the credit of evolution in any way.Good science observes the facts look at a car,or building,or computer,all were made with great detail and wisdom, same with life.I say they should teach both in school.




wait a second, who mentioned big bang, we are talking about earth, creation of life on earth, not creation of universe


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507305 - 08/07/05 04:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That is another Bush-Mind-Bomb !

Get cover, folks ! Hold what you have !

:grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: 3eyeswise]
    #4507313 - 08/07/05 04:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I say they should teach both in school.

Sure, but why discriminate?

We should also teach kids learning biology that a competing 'theory' is the Giant Spaghetti Monsters, and the Reptilian Masters, and the Great Green Arkleseizure, and the Giant White Bird, and the... :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4507326 - 08/07/05 04:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Please only prooveable facts in science please :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507373 - 08/07/05 05:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Your point specter is??? If an explosion"big bang" made the earth ID theory states that intelligence was behind it.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: 3eyeswise]
    #4507393 - 08/07/05 05:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

3eyeswise said:
Your point specter is??? If an explosion"big bang" made the earth ID theory states that intelligence was behind it.




nope, ID theory is an alternative to evolution, and evolution talks about life on earth.

ID concept therefore would say that some intelligence made life on existing earth, not that it created earth or universe.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507594 - 08/07/05 06:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

nobody takes me serious...
:whocares:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4508612 - 08/07/05 11:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Strictly speaking, intelligent design is only describing how life first originated on this planet, but i don't think that's what Bush and his supporters have in mind. If you look at the original post it describes intelligent design as a the view that an unseen force is behind the development of life. This implies that the proponents of this theory believe that the unseen force is still playing an active role in the direction that life goes to this day. This version of the theory of intelligent design isn't just going up against equally speculative and unsupported theories of how life first started, but is actually an alternative to evolution. Clearly evolution is a much more scientifically based theory, and thus should be the one taught in science class.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4509455 - 08/08/05 04:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
No one is talking about things appearing by magic except you.

ID says that biological diversity was caused by a designer. This is the way theologians repackage God into something that sounds scientific. The designer is not in evidence (just like God), cannot be tested for (just like God), cannot be falsified (just like God), and is credited with designing every animal on Earth (just like God).

God == Magic;




so If I make a series of conscious robots, put the on an island, and then 1000 generations later they can't find evidence of me, does that mean I am magic?

Nope, I made them with my crewdriver, that's not magic



Wait what? If you did that, some robots would label you a God, others would build a boat. The argument to me is a hillarious one, ID has no backing, and thus can be discounted. Hey sure its possible, there is a possibility of it being true, that means we have to teach the idea in schools? Has the world gone insane when I wasnt looking?


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: TheCow]
    #4509584 - 08/08/05 05:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

bush doesnt have a single atom of intelligent design in his whole flaming family. if ID was correct, then fossils were put here to FUCK with us and test our faith to the creation myth. some god you have there. also if ID is assumed to be correct then it was this intelligent designer who made it ok for bush to steal our most coveted appointment of office not just once but twice. and what if somone ran a plane into the pentagon in reaction to this? well thats either more intelligent design, or an attack on the righteous deserving of retaliation to the magnitude of ten times. at any rate. guess what. darwinism was founded upon scientific principles. ID pokes holes in science. enough said.

but one more thing. science also says global warming is a real and serious threat to the lives of all ecosystems on this planet. what does bush and most other supporters of ID say? no problem here. my dick is bigger than global warming and it doesnt exist for me. if it did, as the owner of exxon mobile, i would have to concede to the fact that burning extreme amounts of FOSSIL fuels has scientifically shown to increase the levels of "greenhouse" gases thereby influencing weather trends over time. thank god these fossils were just put here to FUCK with us and dont really cause global warming
ciao


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: fungophiliac]
    #4510291 - 08/08/05 01:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How can someone teach something in science-class what is not scientifically proveable ?
Wow, back to the old days...
My god has made a more intelligent design than yours :cuckoo:

(THOR, reach me your hammer please! :crazy2:)
:starwars: :jedi: :duel: :jedi: :starwars: :jedi:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4510317 - 08/08/05 02:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
why is that not a theory?
Many theories have been created with zero material leads and only logical thinking or mathematics.

For example. In biology in high school we were taught the theory of how life came into place, but we were also taught that life could have came to earth from space, in form of an asteroid or something, as an alternative theory. Such alternative theory does not have any evidence or leads, but it was taught only by logic of what is possible.

Intelligence is possible, act of creation of new breeds by genetic manipulation, or in theory genetic sequencing is possible, so why is it not possible that intelligence created life on earth?




A theory needs evidence and has to come about from a logical conclusion. And most importantly, a theory needs to be able to be disproven through science, otherwise it is not part of science. And even if life did come to earth from another planet on an asteroid, that's simply a possibility that fits right into Darwinism and evolution. It in no way contradicts evolution, despite being just a hypothetical situation.

Evolution is a theory, and a very strong one at that. While it's still called a theory, most scientists and intelligent people believe it, and I seriously doubt there's any way Darwinism will be disproven, seeing as there's no logical alternatives yet discovered.

Now let's look at this bullshit "intelligent design": No evidence (simply prejudices, saying everything's too complex for science), no logic involving science, and no way to be disproven using science. ID is what we call "pseudoscience" and sprung from beliefs that should've been chucked out the window when we stopped burning people alive for being witches.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4510653 - 08/08/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, thanks ravus, it starts sickering into my mind :smile:
What if Bush will show some concept to evaluate ID into measurable items ? Like: this crabs claw is mor intelligent designed, because it has success in snapping to the fish in 90% and the other crab has a dull claw, because it get only 40%, but can hold the crabwoman 5% better then the other crab with this claw but....and...
What if he tries to sum these 'fitness for the surrounding percentage' together and compares it to some environment, that who had 'designed' ??

Things getting frightening...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4510735 - 08/08/05 04:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Can someone please clear it up if Bush wants the story of Creation from the Book Of Genesis taught in biology class or if Intelligent Design just means that evolution is pretty fucking intelligent in its design and to take note of that when observing your experiments?

Take how Ravus said that most intelligent people believe in evolution.

Is there or is their not intelligence in the products of evolution then?

Where does this intelligence to determine the intelligence of evolution come from if not from Intelligent design within evolution itself?

What if intelligence is evolution and evolution is intelligence. What if they are one in the same thing?

See what I am saying?

Even still, one afternoon of critical thinking on this (not the Genesis story) in biology class would be good for the kids.

If it is about teaching the story of creation in the Book of Genesis from the Christian Bible in biology class then Bush went off his rocker. I find it difficult to believe that is what he is proposing to be implemented. That's what made me laugh.

Diploid, where did your intelligence come from? It obviously exists. You say evolution. Where did evolution come from?

The question is, did evolution create intelligence or did intelligence create evolution? We clearly have both at play.

From what I understand, we really don't know for sure which came first. Keep the question out of biology class, keep Genesis out of it for sure. It's a good one for a philosophy or critical thinking skills class.

It's a question I ask often. Where did all of this cool material stuff come from, some of it with consciousness that can create more cool material stuff with the stuff already here.

We seem to enjoy talking a lot about it in S&P. It's stimulating. Glad to here someone said they did discuss it in their HS Philosophy class.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4510790 - 08/08/05 05:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Veritas]
    #4510963 - 08/08/05 05:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

THANK YOU VERITAS! :thumbup:

In the first link, ID is not about teaching Genesis Creationism at all.

I loved the argument used with the mouse trap in the first link. Got me thinking.

If that's the stuff they want to present kids with in a science class then, hell ya I'm all for it. It may not fit in with biology, but it fits in with critical thinking when hypothesizing.

In the second skeptic link, the mood changes. It seems some people against ID keep wanting to put the word GOD over intelligent designer.

Maybe some ID people are doing that and from what I read in the first link, many do not.

I think that's where ID gets sticky and messy with many people.

Intelligent designer need not be synonymous with the Biblical God and many who support ID don't make the correlation to the Biblical God.

I can see why they want it out for that reason. If someone like Bush has an agenda to use it to prove the God of the Bible with, then he will want to prove that the words and teachings of Bible are also the truth next. Before we know it, we will be killing gays and not having sex while menstruating and ..........

I can see why people want ID out of the classroom. If proponents for it want to start covering the label of intelligent designer with more definitive ones like the Biblical God or ET's then it gets into speculation and can create a disaster.

I have no problem with it if the ambiguous label of Intelligent Designer is used. Evolution itself could turn out to be the intelligent designer that created other intelligent designers like humans.

We have evidenced, intelligence, design, and evolution.

The Biblical God and ET's are in another field of abstract /personal experience/speculation until either of them lands on lawn and stays there for all to observe, meet, test and question.

regarding the separation of Church and State, which I am all for, God and ET's belong in private schools, not public government funded schools.

It's a shame with the label overlapping related to ID because that's not where others exploring ID, some from the early 1800 wish to take it. They have no agenda for it besides figuring out how all of this stuff came to be.

I have yet to read the last link. Going to take a break and get to it later.

Thank's again for those links Veritas.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511031 - 08/08/05 06:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Can someone please clear it up if Bush wants the story of Creation from the Book Of Genesis taught in biology class or if Intelligent Design just means that evolution is pretty fucking intelligent in its design and to take note of that when observing your experiments?

Take how Ravus said that most intelligent people believe in evolution.

Is there or is their not intelligence in the products of evolution then?

Where does this intelligence to determine the intelligence of evolution come from if not from Intelligent design within evolution itself?

What if intelligence is evolution and evolution is intelligence. What if they are one in the same thing?

See what I am saying?




I may be stoned, but that still doesn't make sense.

Evolution follows Darwinism, and Darwinism has many paths. Any organism that can survive in his area not only against predators and threats, but against similar organisms that would use his resources up to the point of extinction is an organism that can survive. One possible path of this is intelligence, like in humans, but there are many others paths that have survived, possibly billions of paths. Bacteria have no intelligence, yet they survive and thrive in the same areas of humans, so intelligence is just one attribute a few organisms can have to increase their survival.

Quote:

Where does this intelligence to determine the intelligence of evolution come from if not from Intelligent design within evolution itself?




Hm? Intelligence comes from the Darwinism in evolution; it's simply a combination of many favorable genes that produce the brain into an intelligent product. I don't see how this requires any sort of "Creator".

If something as complex as life needs a Creator, doesn't something as complex as that Creator need a Creator? It's pure Christian bullshit hyped up behind the label of "intelligent" yet is actually pseudoscience that cannot be verified or disproven.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4511052 - 08/08/05 06:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You are stoned because that passage says evolution itself can be the "Creator". Are you now denying evolotion just so you can talk about why you believe in Darwism?

Thats what you just did.

Sober up and re-read what it is written.

You serve as an example I what I experienced going from the first link Veritas provided to the second link. That was watching people make assumptions about what others mean by the use of the word intelligent designer.

I said, the intelligent designer could be, the body of the nature of evolution itself.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511115 - 08/08/05 06:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
THANK YOU VERITAS! :thumbup:
If that's the stuff they want to present kids with in a science class then, hell ya I'm all for it. It may not fit in with biology, but it fits in with critical thinking when hypothesizing.

I have no problem with it if the ambiguous label of Intelligent Designer is used. Evolution itself could turn out to be the intelligent designer that created other intelligent designers like humans.

It's a shame with the label overlapping related to ID because that's not where others exploring ID, some from the early 1800 wish to take it. They have no agenda for it besides figuring out how all of this stuff came to be.




So you want to have ID in biology class, even though you have stated it does not fit in with biology.  Critical thinking?  What do you even mean by that?  Yes it is an interesting philosophical idea, this ID thing.  Certainly it is possible for ID to be true, but once again, mere possibility with NO backing, except the, wow this evolution shit is pretty wild it must have been thought up by some way intelligent motherfucker, should not be taught in school.  It is just so absurd to me to even imply that it is reasonable at all.  Evolution tries to explain something with knowledge we know to be TRUE, ID simply says, hey niggaz we dont know much of anything so i guess this shit about some intelligent god like creature could be true, hey that explains it all. 
Evolution is not concerned if some god started evolution, so it could turn out that some god started evolution, but who cares?  These slim possiblities can be instantly disregarded, as they have no backing what so ever, so saying that something 'could' turn out to be true, is amusing to me, and then say that that same thing should be taught in school, is downright scary.

Im sure all of the ID supporters are linking this to the guy in the early 1800's who supposedly came up with this theory.  Come on man, read through propaganda.  ID is religion at its core, just because some guy made a theory in the early 1800's saying that ID could be true does not mean that religion hadnt thought of that idea thousands of years earlier.  They have no agenda you say?  There agenda is to prove that a god like creature came up with everything.  They have no facts to support it at all, it is a bunch of philosophers in a room jacking themselves off, this has no place in a science class, maybe in a :whatever: class but not science.  ID implies a god, just because it was laid out in some serious sounding theory you buy it?  Use a bit of logic please.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: TheCow]
    #4511191 - 08/08/05 07:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I said, after you read the way ID is presented in the first link, it's hard to find a reason for why it shouldn't be presented in a science class.

I also said, NOT BIOLOGY, but in critical thinking when hypothesizing section of science class.

The second link is where it gets ugly and I have reason to reconsider from the impression the first link left me with.

Sorry to burst your dogmatic assumption, but there are many who consider the idea of some form of intelligence behind evolution that has NOTHING to do with the Bible or a religion or a God being.

However, for some odd reason, evolutionary glitch, some people can't seem to menatlly process and comprehend a 3rd option.

Soooooooooo for that reason, and knowing that some are using ID as religious propaganda, the proposition is an understandably sticky mess and I still feel it should be kept out of the public educational system.

If this thread is going to result in selective reading and reading comprehension problems and the twisting of words due to people who have emotional/ego attachments to beleifs in darwinism then, I'm out of this.

This isn't about darwinsim. This is about a proposition by the Pres to teach ID theory in biology class. I didn't even understand fully what ID was until I just read the links veritas provided.

We got a lot of people flapping their jaws not understanding what it is from many perspectives and what exactly is being proposed.

This thread is a classic example of why I ultimately think ID should be kept out of science class rooms. To many emotional ego over reactions that result in quick assumpting and grave misunderstandings.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511329 - 08/08/05 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I said, after you read the way ID is presented in the first link, it's hard to find a reason for why it shouldn't be presented in a science class.

I also said, NOT BIOLOGY, but in critical thinking when hypothesizing section of science class.

The second link is where it gets ugly and I have reason to reconsider from the impression the first link left me with.

Sorry to burst your dogmatic assumption, but there are many who consider the idea of some form of intelligence behind evolution that has NOTHING to do with the Bible or a religion or a God being.

However, for some odd reason, evolutionary glitch, some people can't seem to menatlly process and comprehend a 3rd option.




Could you be serious? You are saying that there are many people who believe in intelligent design who dont think of a god like being, being involved? Where does the intelligence come in then, if there is no intelligent being, then what are you even talking about?

I have read that article, it clearly states at several points that it is talking about a supernatural being, is this not a god like being? Or are you just arguing on some sort of odd semantics and wont accept that when I say god like being, and supernatural being, I mean the same thing? Could you really be that easily swayed by propaganda?
The link says, that modern day ID believers have mathematics and microbiology to support what they say. I guess thats evidence enough for you to have that presented in a publicly mandated school. Hell Id LOVE to see the math they are talking about, I can imagine it to be very similar to all the 'math' ive seen which disproves relativity, or I could post the famous 'proof' again of 1 = 2 to show you how math can be easily messed with to produce whatever result you want.

I am not twisting your words at all as you keep implying I am. You point to this article and say that it makes sense. It is not a convincing argument at all, it says that in the early 1800's some guy made a serious theory of intelligent design, then darwin came along with all his evidence, and scientists stopped taking ID seriously. It then just rants for a while, and says that modern day ID believers have facts now, which is just almost too absurd for me. Hey but if you buy that shit, then by all means teach it to your kids, math and all, me personally, I will fight to make sure that kids dont think this shit can be taken seriously at all.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: TheCow]
    #4511908 - 08/08/05 10:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

hahahha, in the same sentence you say that you are not twisting my words around, you say that I said the first link made sense.

I didn't say that. You are indeed twisting my words to argue against a phantom poster of your creation under my name.

I said, "I loved the argument used with the mouse trap analogy. It got me thinking."

In the reply after that, I then said that with examples like that, it is hard to find a reason why they shouldn't be taught in a science class under a critical thinking section.

I'm not going to waste anymore time digging up examples of how you have twisted my words completely beyond recognition to create a phantom to argue with.

I can only reply to what I said, not what you imagine I say.

Before you take on congress with this one, I suggest you calm down a bit first.

Whats funny is how hyper emotional you are getting with me, jiggy, about this topic. I have written a few times in the past I wish all Bibles could be burned. I home-school my daughter partly because I think schools are to busy teaching kids what to think instead of how to think. They teach the memorization facts and rarely involve the kids to learn from experience and testing things out for themselves "the scientific method of learning".

It would be so nice if we could find home school groups to collaborate course work with and for her to have more social interaction revolved around group projects. However, all of them in my area, 12,000 home school families, who have organized such groups, all include Bible studies in them.

That's the TURN OFF and TURN AROUND for me.

Try asking questions before making assumptions and jumping to quick conclusions about things and people. You learn more that way and don't make yourself look so foolish.

If you're so passionate about this that you are willing to fight to keep children from being taught creationism then you better start knocking on your door Cow because you have hundreds of millions of homes and parents to fight with. Same ones who voted for Bush.

If you meant that you are willing to fight just to keep them from being taught it in the pubic schools then, your time is best spent writing letters to your state senators and congressmen, not in opinionated rants on a psychedelic message board.

You have my support!


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4512235 - 08/08/05 11:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

First off let me say I am a believer in creation. I just don't see how every living thing on earth came from one cell billions of years ago. And, if by chance they did, someone had to put that cell there. Also, i don't believe my soul is made of cells. But to my argument that it should be taught in public schools....

Creation isn't solely based on faith anymore. There are scientist (christian scientist) working now-a-days to prove creation. They have found facts supporting "a huge flood", factors that could determine fossils are not as old as we think, etc. Anyhoo... Why not teach this SCIENCE in school? Evolution is as unprovable as Creation, so IMO both should be taught so that no child is brainwashed to believe evolution as fact, which is whats happening.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4512335 - 08/08/05 11:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

rockytop, I appreciate your view on this subject. Not everyone here can walk that fine line between the two arguments so I am going to shut up. I probabaly fell off the fine line myself here and there too. :lol:

On a side note, if there are any home or school elementary educators here, I just picked up an awesome book about teaching with the scientific method.

I highly recommend it. Even to parents of elementary school aged children.

It's called

Nurturing Inquiry
Real Science for the Elementary Classroom
by Charles R Pearce

It's brilliant and insightful! A lot can be applied to parenting as well.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4512388 - 08/09/05 12:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

rockytop83 said:
First off let me say I am a believer in creation. I just don't see how every living thing on earth came from one cell billions of years ago. And, if by chance they did, someone had to put that cell there. Also, i don't believe my soul is made of cells. But to my argument that it should be taught in public schools....

Creation isn't solely based on faith anymore. There are scientist (christian scientist) working now-a-days to prove creation. They have found facts supporting "a huge flood", factors that could determine fossils are not as old as we think, etc. Anyhoo... Why not teach this SCIENCE in school? Evolution is as unprovable as Creation, so IMO both should be taught so that no child is brainwashed to believe evolution as fact, which is whats happening.




Someone had to put that cell there eh? Then who put that "someone" there? If your logic says that there must be a creator to life, then why is there not a creator to the creator? And so on to infinity.

No religious person has been able to answer this question. They've called me a heretic for continuously asking it as they try to dodge it, but simply put the rest in their "faith". However, the first paragraph is your personal beliefs, so isn't significant to the school system inclusion argument.

Quote:

They have found facts supporting "a huge flood", factors that could determine fossils are not as old as we think, etc.




...so? I believe there's been floods, meteorite strikes, volcano eruptions, earthquakes, and overall destruction throughout the earth's entire history. It's a possibility a massive flood did affect humanity. The Bible may have some grains of history in all the bullshit, no one's denying this, but it's not what the argument's about.

Quote:

Anyhoo... Why not teach this SCIENCE in school? Evolution is as unprovable as Creation, so IMO both should be taught so that no child is brainwashed to believe evolution as fact, which is whats happening.




Because this "SCIENCE" is just a few facts and biases from scientists. Intelligent design is not science; some scientists may have been able to point out flaws with some datings of some fossils, but the fossils are nevertheless there and much older than 6,000 years. Evolution is unprovable? Evolution is nearly fact in the scientific world, because it is one of the greatest theories to ever come along. We can see evolution working with viruses even in a relatively short time, as some mutations allow viruses to resist antibiotics and then reproduce to make the whole strain immune.

If you believe in genetics and mutations, which any sane and educated person will, then I can't see how you can possibly discredit evolution. All of genetics, mutations, genetic shift, the founder effect, the behaviors we see in viruses and bacteria, the basic logic of it all points to evolution. What points to intelligent design? A few simple human fears and prejudices at most.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4512469 - 08/09/05 12:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Chocolate!


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4512480 - 08/09/05 12:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Evolution is nearly fact in the scientific world, because it is one of the greatest theories to ever come along. We can see evolution working with viruses even in a relatively short time, as some mutations allow viruses to resist antibiotics and then reproduce to make the whole strain immune.




Evolution is not nearly FACT in the scientific world. In FACT, you couldn't be further from the truth.

Also, I'm not saying I don't believe things evolve. In fact, I know things are evolving everyday. That's not what were talking about here. What we are trying to argue is how earth began. You cannot rule out the possibility that there is a "higher being" simply because some viruses resist antibiotics.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4512531 - 08/09/05 12:45 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

You cannot rule out the possibility that there is a "higher being" simply because some viruses resist antibiotics.




I can't rule out that aliens created us either. But in science, we use Occam's razor (or at least some of us do) which means that we don't fill up theories with unnecessary components that are not supported by the evidence. Intelligent design does exactly this; a few rogue scientists claim that fossil testing has problems and add a couple other facts, then make this huge jump to intelligent design through it.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4513959 - 08/09/05 12:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

rockytop83 said:
Evolution is not nearly FACT in the scientific world. In FACT, you couldn't be further from the truth.



Between evolution and creationism, evolution is the only idea that has made testable predictions, which is why it is a scientific theory and creation is not. These testable predictions have been supported by the evidence, while creationism merely looks for things that might support their dogma, without putting it to the test.

Quote:

Also, I'm not saying I don't believe things evolve. In fact, I know things are evolving everyday. That's not what were talking about here. What we are trying to argue is how earth began. You cannot rule out the possibility that there is a "higher being" simply because some viruses resist antibiotics.



And you can't rule out the possibility that a giant turtle shat out the universe. That doesn't mean it's likely. As for how the earth began, we have been able to observe other solar systems, and the things leading up to them, like supernovas. It stands to reason that if other solar systems can form in such a way, then so can ours. Furthermore, such theories are entirely consistent with our knowledge of physics, whereas a "higher being" is not. Therefore, applying Occam's Razor to the situation, it behooves us to go with the answer that is consistent with science.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: exclusive58]
    #4514093 - 08/09/05 01:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

They've fallen into their own dogma, which is to explain things by saying that there isn't any meaning to anything.

Huh? I don't think any scientists teach that there isn't any meaning to anything. They're teaching science, which is the study of information, not why you think magical characters wanted this stuff to happen.

If I'm teaching about gravity, and talk about what happens when you drop a rock on the ground, I don't discuss why people would drop rocks. Not because I think there's no reason for dropping rocks, but because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


As for people who say that it's a good idea to teach intelligent design because alternative theories should be presented; why do they choose the judeo-christian version? Why not give equal weight to the idea that a turtle vomited us up, or one of millions of creation stories out there?

People don't realize that there's a huge difference between a creation story and a theory. A theory is based on a long list of evidence supporting the idea, a creation story is just a story. It's not a theory, it's just something a bunch of people believe. The only thing to teach about it is the story. With evolution, the thing to teach is all the evidence.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4514130 - 08/09/05 01:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, if you look at the "creation scientists", you'll find that most of them aren't scientists in the fields they discuss. They tend to have PhDs in theology, not geology. Claiming that this qualifies them to study biology or geology history is a little dishonest.

Most of their arguments are nonsense, they're generally just a bunch of creative ideas for things that could have possibly happened.

Their problem is that they don't take a genuine scientific approach. When studying something, the best thing to do is gather all the evidence together, look at ALL of it, and try to figure out what happend. Creation "scientists" do the opposite, they aren't trying to figure out what happened, they've decided they already know, so they're just looking for ideas or information that backs up what they already believe, and they completely ignore anything that doesn't.

If you think you have a piece of evidence that really shows evolution to be false, present it, and I'll look into it. But do some research yourself. There are lots of sites out there that explain why many of the creation "science" arguments don't make any sense.

If you really think that there isn't evidence for evolution, read:
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html


These sites are okay too:
http://www.txtwriter.com/Backgrounders/Evolution/EVcontents.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Phluck]
    #4514146 - 08/09/05 01:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Their problem is that they don't take a genuine scientific approach. When studying something, the best thing to do is gather all the evidence together, look at ALL of it, and try to figure out what happend. Creation "scientists" do the opposite, they aren't trying to figure out what happened, they've decided they already know, so they're just looking for ideas or information that backs up what they already believe, and they completely ignore anything that doesn't.



Actually, that's not entirely true. You can start with a theory before you have evidence, just like Einstein did with his theory of relativity. But that theory has to make predictions which can be tested and falsified.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4514256 - 08/09/05 02:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The theory of relativity was still based on information that he had, he didn't just make it up out of nowhere.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4514372 - 08/09/05 02:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Phluck said:
Their problem is that they don't take a genuine scientific approach. When studying something, the best thing to do is gather all the evidence together, look at ALL of it, and try to figure out what happened. Creation "scientists" do the opposite, they aren't trying to figure out what happened, they've decided they already know, so they're just looking for ideas or information that backs up what they already believe, and they completely ignore anything that doesn't.



Actually, that's not entirely true. You can start with a theory before you have evidence, just like Einstein did with his theory of relativity. But that theory has to make predictions which can be tested and falsified.




Same thing with Darwin's theory. They theorized what they would find as evidence and then went looking for it to support the theory. So far, the first piece they tested to make a positive link turned up a mis match and other blunders occurred like thinking they would find the skull get larger before the jaw bone shrunk. Not what they found either. A few tried to forge one though and got away with it for decades before an authentic one was found to disprove that idea.

Watch the documentary called Ape to Human on the History channel. It's packed with scientist coming up with ideas and their trying to find things that fit to support the belief. Some were so ego attached to their beliefs they forged fossils. The peer review board approved it because they wanted England to be more ahead in the race to solve the puzzle of where humans came from then Germany.

Science is guilty of acting unscientifically as well. No need to put them up on a flawless pedastal above humanity. Thats what christians do with God.

If we want to teach kids how biology evolves why not work with proven examples like virus's or species where we have DNA matches?


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: rockytop83]
    #4514422 - 08/09/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

First off let me say I am a believer in creation. I just don't see how...

We have covered this thousands of times. Ignorance does not equal mysticism. If I don't undertand how a car works, does that mean it is powered by demons?

Why the need to "fill in the gap" with an explanation that explains nothing?


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4514552 - 08/09/05 03:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Between evolution and creationism, evolution is the only idea that has made testable predictions, which is why it is a scientific theory and creation is not. These testable predictions have been supported by the evidence, while creationism merely looks for things that might support their dogma, without putting it to the test.




I don't know of the origin of a new species brought about by evolutionary processes being observed and reproduced by humans (please enlighten me if you know of such a thing). We can look at fossil records, but this does not constitute 'testable' and does not tell us how the different species came about, only that they did come about. Our best guess is the concept of evolution. Although evolution seems to make more sense than creationism, it also seems that most people treat it as an article of faith just as much as any religious dogma. Just like religious dogma, most who believe in it fail to question it - they take it as true because it falls under the periphery of the scientific umbrella. I also see many things in life that just seem to have to be force fitted with evolutionary explanations, take the life cycle of a butterfly for instance.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4514997 - 08/09/05 06:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The creator created, for that its creations would fit the created.


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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4515162 - 08/09/05 06:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There is way too much science out there for everyone to examine every theory themselves before they believe it. If you had to come to all those conclusions yourself then science would never progress because it would take more than a life time just to get to the point where we are now. Instead people chose to believe what the scientific community tell them without questioning it. People can do this because of the way the scientific community works. There are enough experts in each field that any new theory being proposed is tested and many attempts are made to disprove it before it is accepted as fact. Nothing is ever completely proven, but you can be sure that something as widely accepted as evolution is very well supported.


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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4515211 - 08/09/05 07:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know of the origin of a new species brought about by evolutionary processes being observed and reproduced by humans (please enlighten me if you know of such a thing).

Speciation has been observed both in the lab and in nature.

There is little literature on the issue because all credible biologists consider the matter settled. A biologist publishing a speciation event is like an astronomer presenting a paper suggesting the Earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around.

However, since you asked, here are a few references::

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Diploid]
    #4515229 - 08/09/05 07:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Excellent, thanks for the link.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Silversoul]
    #4515467 - 08/09/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Actually, that's not entirely true. You can start with a theory before you have evidence




Replace "theory" with "hypothesis".


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4515927 - 08/09/05 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Indeed, and I believe even the very beginning of a hypothesis has some sort of evidence, no matter how weak or flimsy. Hunches don't come out of nowhere, and neither do "educated guesses".

Unless you just randomly chose a list of hypothesises with no evidence and flipped a coin.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Swami]
    #4516156 - 08/09/05 11:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
First off let me say I am a believer in creation. I just don't see how...

We have covered this thousands of times. Ignorance does not equal mysticism. If I don't undertand how a car works, does that mean it is powered by demons?

Why the need to "fill in the gap" with an explanation that explains nothing?




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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Swami]
    #4516261 - 08/10/05 12:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If I don't undertand how a car works, does that mean it is powered by demons?



Yes, evil petroleum demons controlled by the Dark Lord Bush.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class [Re: Ravus]
    #4516859 - 08/10/05 02:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes. A hypothesis needs evidence to start off with, otherwise its just a conjecture.


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