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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect
    #1567843 - 05/22/03 01:26 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This could be considered off-topic, but it has philosophical implications so I am gonna post it here. Move it if you want. Also, can I post a link to this thread in off-topic, or would that be inappropiate?

First this is a analysis by someone that seams dead on. After that I will post the Transcript of the conversation between the architect and Neo.


While the first two-thirds of Matrix: Reloaded occasionally seems like an
excuse to stage some really nifty fight scenes, the final third is a pretty
damned impressive and convoluted mind trip which you have to pay very close
attention to. The entire movie is an examination of the concept of choice
and free will, and echoes age-old philosophical arguments about
predestination and the omniscence of a supreme being. To overly and crudely
simplify the past twenty thousand years of debate on the topic, the argument
is as follows: if God knows what we're going to do before we do it, then we
can't have free will, because the non-chosen choice would and could never
have been made, because the outcome is already assured. Both the Oracle and
the Architect (the mother and father of the Matrix, according to Reloaded)
make Neo question whether his actions are truly his own, especially in the
film's decisive moment, where Neo is presented with a choice that the
previous Neo's didn't have, as only this Neo (which I guess I'll call
"Keaneo" to keep him straight, hehe) had fallen in love. Or so the
Architect says.

So, what does this film teach us that the previous film did not? Well, it's
certainly a lot later than 2199, as the first film implied. In fact, it's
likely thousands of years into the future. The reason that Morpheus and co.
believe it is 2199 is because they did not know this is the sixth version of
the Matrix, and the sixth version of Zion. Since each new Zion is made out
of people newly plucked from the Matrix, there is no way of passing on
details of previous Zion destructions to others. (Of course, the movie's
final moments also call into question whether Zion exists in the "real
world" at all, as well, but more on that later.)

The first Matrix that was designed was perfect, but no one was able to
believe it was real, and all thought it must be some kind of dream they
should be able to wake from. The Matrix was then tweaked and reloaded (the
true meaning of the title; the ammunition double entendre carries over to
"revolutions" as well) with a smaller percentage of people realizing that it
must be a "dream". Each time, the people who get it, who realize it's not
quite right, find a way to leave the Matrix, with the help of the Oracle,
and found Zion. Why would the Oracle do this? Because the Matrix can't be
allowed to be damaged with an unstable element. The individuals who "get
it" need to be removed. It's a bug in the program, which the Architect is
continually trying to fix with each new Matrix version. And each new reload
eventually produces a Zion, and a Neo, and so the cycle repeats.

The choice that Neo is given is essentially this:

1) The door to his right (the one Neo doesn't select) will reload the
Matrix, as has happened five times before. The inhabitants will stay alive
for the new version; their minds will just be reset. Hopefully by now, the
Architect will have tweaked the Matrix enough to fix the bug and, if not,
there will be a seventh Neo, a seventh Zion, etc. In this scenario, Trinity
will die (since she'll be killed in the Matrix), her body liquified and fed
intravenously to infants, etc.

2) The door to his left (the one he chooses) does NOT reload the Matrix,
letting the bug continue. Trinity gets to live (for now), but the bug will
eventually destroy the Matrix, and everyone connected to the Matrix will
die. The machines will have to formulate alternatives to the bioelectricity
that the humans provide, as all of humanity will be dead.

In other words, door #1 reloads the matrix, the unstable element (i.e. all
the people) in Zion is wiped out, but all the individuals get to go on
living (in their little dream worlds). Door #2 doesn't reload the matrix,
but the flaw will eventually bring down the Matrix itself, and everyone will
die who is connected to it.

The reason that Keaneo has this choice (whereas the previous Neos did not)
is because the love of Trinity is a new factor. The past Neos who got to
this point with the Architect really had only one "choice", i.e., reload the
Matrix. There was no alternative after learning the truth about what Zion
was -- a place where the Oracle got all the troublemakers who could damage
and upset the balance of the Matrix to leave to. Because they were the ones
who felt like they needed to make a choice that wasn't provided to them,
they were encouraged to make the "choice" to leave the Matrix, which let
them feel like they'd accomplished something. But since the Oracle's true
motivations were to essentially quarantine the bug/flaw, it's a pretty
hollow victory for the Zionians. Either way, the previous Neos reloaded the
Matrix, and everyone goes on living in blissful ignorance, since the
alternative (letting the Matrix collapse, killing everyone) is far worse.

Neo's love for Trinity, according to the Architect, has doomed the Matrix's
survival, as now, since the Matrix hasn't been rebooted, the unstable
element will end up killing everyone, including the Zionians.

Ahhh... but why would the Zionites be obliterated just because they left the
Matrix? Well, that depends on your point of view. There are two possible
ways, as I see it, of interpretting the ending:

1) Keaneo's powers have somehow started to work on the "real world" (or at
least with regards to machines.)

2) Zion is either inside of the Matrix, or a separate Matrix, established by
the Oracle as a place for the mistakes, the people who realized life didn't
feel right, to THINK they've regained free will and choice. But, they
haven't -- they're still connected, just in a different bubble -- we've
never actually seen the "real" world.

I'm not sure which scenario Matrix: Revolutions will reflect. Choice #1 is
a more metaphysical, supernatural idea, whereas Choice #2 is more of a
"practical", computer-based idea. Either has it's own strengths and
weaknesses. Naturally, there are all sorts of other choices I haven't
covered, or some combination of the two, etc., but I think most of the clues
we've been given point to one of those, especially the bizarre penultimate
moment of the film where Keaneo's powers work OUTSIDE the Matrix (or, if
choice two is correct, a DIFFERENT part of the matrix, or a different
matrix.)

We also have the clue that Agent Smith has somehow downloaded himself into
the "real world" (or, again, the part of the Matrix that the Zionists CALL
the real world). This is something that happened very quickly in the
beginning parts of the film, and we still don't quite know how it happened,
or to what extent it worked, etc. However, there seems to be quite a bit of
evidence to prove that Smith has entered the body of that crazy guy who
tries to kill Keaneo in Zion early on, and is the only one who "miraculously
survives" the machine's assault on the Zion fleet (and is the last person we
see before the credits roll). If this is agent Smith, who we know for a
fact to be a computer program (well, as much as these films let us know
anything "for a fact" hehe), then that seems to lend more support to the
second theory above, that Zion is a part of the Matrix, or a separate,
bug-holding Matrix, since it would be far more conceiveable for a program to
move from one "server" to another, than for a program to actually become
flesh and blood. Again, we don't know yet, but that's the fun part.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1567845 - 05/22/03 01:27 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Transcript

"Hello Neo."

"Who are you?"

"I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize that it also the most irrelevant."

"Why am I here?"

"Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomoly which despite my sincerest efforts I've been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexorably... here."

"You haven't answered my question."

"Quite right. Interesting... that was quicker than the others."

Now Neo's other selves in the monitors start asking all sort of questions, like "Others? What others?", etc...

"The Matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomoly to the emergence of the next in which case this is the sixth version."

Now the others Neo's start cursing and calling him a liar as we zoom into one of the Neo's on the screen who says...

"There are either two possible explanations... either no one told me... or no one knows."

"Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomoly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations."

Now the other Neo's start screaming "You can't control me! I'm gonna smash you..." etc...

The camera again zooms into another Neo in the center screen...

"Choice. The problem is choice."

"The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art. Flawless. Sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitablility of its doom as aparent to me now is a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus I redesigned it... based on your history. To more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However I was again frustrated by failure. I've since come to understand the answer alluded me because it required a lesser mind or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another... an intuitive program. Initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix... she would undoubtedly be its mother."

"The Oracle."

"Please. As I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice. Even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While thid answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory... systemic anomoly... That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refuse the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster."

"This is about Zion."

"You are here because Zion is about to the destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existance eradicated."

"Bull s-h-i-t"... the other Neo also say "Bull s-h-i-t."

"Denial is the most predicatable of all human responses. But rest assured... this will be the 6th time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it."

Now there's Trinity fighting the Agent.

"The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the Matrix, 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race."

"You wont let it happen, you can't. You need huamn beings to survive."

"There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world."

Architect clicks his pen and the screens change to various human beings.

"It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication, a contigent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific... vis-a-vis... love."

"Trinity."

"She entered the Matrix to save your life, at the cost of her own."

"No."

"Which brings us at last, to the moment of truth, where the fundamental flaw is ulimately expressed and the anomoly revealed as both beginning... and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the Matrix, to her and to the end of your species. As you eloquently put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason, and emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth... she is going to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it."

Neo takes the door to the left, but stops before leaving as Architect says...

"Hope... it is the quinisential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness."

"If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again."

"We wont."


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1567892 - 05/22/03 01:48 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)


Thanks for posting that! This was the most confuzing part of the movie.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Murex]
    #1567896 - 05/22/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Agreed....  That was a two thumbs up on that post !!!

:grin:


 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Murex]
    #1567899 - 05/22/03 01:51 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I've been working on a postulate that it's a Matrix-within-a-Matrix.

I might post it Friday, so look for it.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Sclorch]
    #1567931 - 05/22/03 02:03 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)


Neat.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Murex]
    #1568280 - 05/22/03 05:13 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

thanks for posting that reading it again makes you understand it more. i think that they will probly go with the first choice(theres that word again) you gave. i think that maybe because he chose the left door he created a flaw in the "real" world allowing for his control of the machines. it is hard to predict these things tho since the wachoskis are a little bit crazy...

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineDiscordja
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: blaze2]
    #1568685 - 05/22/03 10:21 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

'After which you will be required to select from the Matrix, 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male to rebuild Zion.'

Hail Eris!
23 Skidoo!


--------------------
Remember, it's only true if it makes you laugh...


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Discordja]
    #1568713 - 05/22/03 10:40 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hail Eris! 23 Skidoo!

LOL.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offline11polakie11
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1568740 - 05/22/03 11:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i havent' seen the movie
but what seems to appear is that the architect himself is not "actually" human


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1568865 - 05/22/03 12:20 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

really? not human? but he LOOKS like a human! :smile:


--------------------


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Offline11polakie11
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Mitchnast]
    #1569077 - 05/22/03 02:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

but one of the mystery's of reloaded is where the "reality" REALLY is and how many levels of the "matrix" there are


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1569168 - 05/22/03 02:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)


Kind of like our reality.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1569420 - 05/22/03 03:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

(the mother and father of the Matrix, according to Reloaded)
 




Id have to disagree and say that the oracle wasn't the mother of the matrix, she herself was a program hacking a program. im probilby wrong here. She could be another source of control?

Quote:

The first Matrix that was designed was perfect, but no one was able tobelieve it was real, and all thought it must be some kind of dream theyshould be able to wake from. The Matrix was then tweaked and reloaded (the true meaning of the title; the ammunition double entendre carries over to "revolutions" as well) with a smaller percentage of people realizing that it must be a "dream". 




For those who seen the part in X-men2 when the professor was trapped in a illusion. At first jason ( the illusionist ) created the professors dream world by making it perfect, later the professor looks down and see's he has no wheel chair. He quickly realizes he's in an illusion and says, "Jason stop ?? (i forget the exact words)" So the reloaded matrix was designed to not look like perfection or shall i say heaven. Shall i say is perfection, but in a yin-yang quality. He says that neo's life is the sum of an unbalanced equation. They are perfecting the martrix though a set of trails of good and bad.

Quote:

"Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomoly which despite my sincerest efforts I've been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision." 




Quote:

The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art. Flawless. Sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitablility of its doom as aparent to me now is a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus I redesigned it... based on your history. To more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature."





Earlyer in the movie they french men explained how wer are victims to causality, as he makes a special cake for the lady accross from him. Later as she eats he explains how she sorta a vicitim (by design) to causality. How all that matters is the feeling, its by design supposed to eraticate all logic and reasoning. Slaves to it! Its all like the argument, being slaves to addicting drugs, heroin, crack,... etc.

Im going to pull out the ol' good book for a quick quote:
Romans 6:19
"I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increaseing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When ever you are slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteiousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

The matrix reloaded is about drugs, DRUGS, DRUGS, DRUGS! And lots of it, but they never one time mention drugs!

Quote:

" Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason, and emotion that is already blinding you " 




Just as in the end the architect says that he already knows what going to happen. Love over rides all logic and reason; love being a drug.
Theres more here it just takes time for me to think about it!

One more thing, in the end of the movie neo says, "i feel them!", and uses a form of kinesis. Ya know the first time i saw the movie i missed that quote, but to me its the most signifigant. For the past week ive been getting dreams about telekinesis, were not talking a dream or two, no this was more like 4 or 5 dreams in a row. When neo says he feels it,  :shocked: :shocked: i stopped and it shocked me because i KNOW NOW WHAT THE HELL HE'S TALKING ABOUT NOW. In my dreams i found telekinesis to be very easy, its like the object is an additional arm that i just move. Telekinesis isn't the actually moving or bending the object in question, its a moving or bending of yourself. Now i don't know what kinda shit there posting at psipog, but from what experiences ive read here, at the shroomery. Ive actually know now what they are talking about when they mean they feel the energy or they "feel it". Its like im on the brink of tapping in to the power, but i first have to feel the energy. I feel like i know now what to do, but ive never actually been successful.


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


Edited by johnnyfive (05/22/03 03:54 PM)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1569463 - 05/22/03 03:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)


The matrix reloaded is about drugs, DRUGS, DRUGS, DRUGS! And lots of it, but they never one time mention drugs!

Only in the first Matrix they mentioned drugs (meskeline). I think drugs are a subliminal or underlining theme to the Matrix movies. I'm sure the writers have delved into other realms using drugs.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Murex]
    #1569518 - 05/22/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I couldn't help noticing that all the characters seemed to have fully dilated pupils throughout. I don't think it was my imagination either...there were a lot of eye close ups.

I think it must have been done with CGI, which begs the question "why?". Think they were trying to tell us something?


--------------------


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1569634 - 05/22/03 04:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(the mother and father of the Matrix, according to Reloaded)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Id have to disagree and say that the oracle wasn't the mother of the matrix, she herself was a program hacking a program. im probilby wrong here. She could be another source of control?





Considering the Architect was the one that said that, I don't think it is up for debate.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Anonymous

Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1569642 - 05/22/03 04:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The thing is, we could really be living in a matrix-type world and we wouldn't know it. I don't think any of the matrix has anything to do with drugs... but I sure know what you guys have on your one track minds.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: ]
    #1569747 - 05/22/03 05:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)


BOOBIES!


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect [Re: Murex]
    #1570036 - 05/22/03 08:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think any of the matrix has anything to do with drug




Ok then how far down the rabbit hole are you willing to go to chase the  white rabbits ?  :grin: As for the pills I would take two reds and save my self a blue one just incase of a bad trip. :wink:

As for neo controlling reailty in zion there is 2 possibilities 1 could simple be that neo was knock out by an emp pulse generated by the ship as it approached them which rescued them from the robots, so it just could be a coincedence.

Hope this makes sense as at the moment i am soo tired and stonned.

The other possibility could actuaily be that Zion is still in the same matrix only on a diffrent part. So this could be a place where abnormalitys go (rebels) to try and minimise damage to other parts of the matrix. These where sent there with the help of the oracle who in the second movie offered neo a red sweet that looked simular to the red pill in the first movie a hint that she could be part of the systems way to isolate people.

The proof that the system is crashing and need to be revised is by the apperance of one of the agents who seems to be a crashed program which was caused by neo. There was also in the film a bit about vampires ect are crashed programs from previoulsy made matrix that cause problems.

But why destroy zion well It would be like switching operating systems you have to delete one before you can install the other and because the rebels would be seen as some sort of error they must be first be erase before the system can be reinstalled.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


Edited by jezu (05/22/03 08:45 PM)


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