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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4642905 - 09/10/05 06:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Supose you find a funny shaped stone in nature, some say man carved it, others say it's one of those natural stones that look different by coincidence.

Are you saying that you can only verify if it was made by coincidence in nature, and not verify if it was carved by humans?


Speaking of mysterious rock carvings, any explanation for who carved the statues on Easter Island?





evolution


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642907 - 09/10/05 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Sounds like you misunderstood me wood.

By the video taped remark I made, all i meant to say is that we don't have video tape evidence of what happened to cause the Big Bang.

Lunar probably doesn't have video taped evidence to show how he designed and created his garden and left room for it to evolve over time either.

Does that mean he didn't do it?

My understanding of ID is that it is related to the Universe.

Creationism comes from the Bible and is related to this planet.

Perhaps dromni needs to post his definition of Intelligent design.

My understanding of it is that evolution is a part of it.

Of course, we need to be working with Dromnis definition since it's his proposition.




No I didn't misunderstood you, I was just using your video tape example, nothing more


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4642924 - 09/10/05 06:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why can't evolution be a part of ID?

It could be, no scientist says otherwise. However there is currently no evidence for ID. Not the tiniest little bit. None at all. :shrug:




the evidence, or leads to be more accurate lie in two things:
1. existence of life
2. the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter.

Biology so far believes in a miracle. One one hand they say no life can spring out of non living matter. And on other hand they say that universe made an exeption once. This exeption IS a miracle, because chances are so small.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4642938 - 09/10/05 06:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

1. existence of life

The existence of life does not require a designer.

the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter

Where did you get this? There is no such rule, at least none among biologists, though some church guy with a second grade science education may have invented it one day and passed it on as if it were true.

Biology so far believes in a miracle

Nope, biology has no 'beliefs' at all. It observes chemistry causing biology and so theorizes that biology is caused by chemistry. It has never observed God causing anything at all.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.

This is true, so far. At one time, science relied on speculation that atoms exist. It still does in the form of the Atomic Theory because no human has ever seen an atom. However, the Atomic Theory incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also runs the nuclear power plant that's powering my PC.

I think science is onto something...


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4642942 - 09/10/05 06:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Biology so far believes in a miracle. One one hand they say no life can spring out of non living matter. And on other hand they say that universe made an exeption once. This exeption IS a miracle, because chances are so small.






We are evolved from comets.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4642956 - 09/10/05 07:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
A scientist would say that there is no evidence the universe was designed. This doesn't make the universe any less amazing; the opposite, I'd say.

The Pythagorean Theorem is a very clever consequence of number theory, but it was not designed any more than 2 + 2 = 4 was designed.

It just is.




Right. It just is a design. A design that would take intelligence for us to recognize it just being.

I see design, intelligence and evolution all interwoven and us as observers, intelligent designers and evolving beings all interwoven.

Why does it have to be separated? Why can't the process itself be the Intelligent Designer?

Why can't we recognize intelligent designs that are and not have to go along with Bible creationism.

What would I call my belief if I think the whole process of evolution is an intelligent design?

I can't just say I am an evolutionist because that implies there is no intelligence behind the design. I look at the complexity of the human body or how a sperm and egg turn into a Diploid and say , "Damn. However, this came to be had some smarts behind it. Even if it is evolution itself."

I think there are a lot of us who don't know what the label is for our understanding, experiences or observations of what is. We aren't creationists who believe in the Bible and we aren't evolutionists who think there is absolutely nothing intelligent behind the design of venomous fangs.

Even you said, "A clever consequence" How did the clever get in there?

Cause and effect itself is a clever design. Without cause and effect there would be no clever and without clever there would be no cause and effect.

All I have to say is, Dromni, will you clear up what you mean by ID? If you want someone to prove Bible Creationism, I'm out of this.

If you want proof of the intelligence in the design of evolution then, it's right in front of you. It is you.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4642998 - 09/10/05 07:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
1. existence of life

The existence of life does not require a designer.

the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter

Where did you get this? There is no such rule, at least none among biologists, though some church guy with a second grade science education may have invented it one day and passed it on as if it were true.

Biology so far believes in a miracle

Nope, biology has no 'beliefs' at all. It observes chemistry causing biology and so theorizes that biology is caused by chemistry. It has never observed God causing anything at all.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.

This is true, so far. At one time, science relied on speculation that atoms exist. It still does in the form of the Atomic Theory because no human has ever seen an atom. However, the Atomic Theory incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also runs the nuclear power plant that's powering my PC.

I think science is onto something...




You can see images of atoms with electronic microscopes. They are not actually visible balls, they are more like signitures rendered to an image, but in a way we CAN see atoms today.

As for the rule. Well, that's what they taught us on biology class.
In the old days people used to believe that frogs and flies can come to existence out of dead matter like watter. Then biology came and said frogs come out of little eggs in the watter and they can't come out of watter.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4643011 - 09/10/05 07:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
1. existence of life

The existence of life does not require a designer.

the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter

Where did you get this? There is no such rule, at least none among biologists, though some church guy with a second grade science education may have invented it one day and passed it on as if it were true.

Biology so far believes in a miracle

Nope, biology has no 'beliefs' at all. It observes chemistry causing biology and so theorizes that biology is caused by chemistry. It has never observed God causing anything at all.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.

This is true, so far. At one time, science relied on speculation that atoms exist. It still does in the form of the Atomic Theory because no human has ever seen an atom. However, the Atomic Theory incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also runs the nuclear power plant that's powering my PC.

I think science is onto something...




well science IS onto something, but theory of evolution is not like other scientific theories, we use other theories and test them day after day whenever we power up our machines, but theory of evolution is more like a tale because it has absolutley no effect on anything we do today. Perhapse it is true, but we are far from being able to test it.

there is one thing about intelligent design that makes it possible:
we do it every day, we make machines, we make moving, reacting things out of inanimate materials. Our everyday work is a living proof that intelligent design is possible:
We KNOW that a living creature can arrange inanimate materials to create something that in a primitive way "lives", if we used more sophisticated technology, our creations could match us, and they probably will one day.

That does not say anything FOR ID, but it makes it POSSIBLE because it has been demonstrated by us


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643017 - 09/10/05 07:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643023 - 09/10/05 07:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.




why can't you test it?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643032 - 09/10/05 07:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

well science IS onto something, but theory of evolution is not like other scientific theories, we use other theories and test them day after day whenever we power up our machines, but theory of evolution is more like a tale because it has absolutley no effect on anything we do today. Perhapse it is true, but we are far from being able to test it.




It has no effect on anything, eh?

Evolution is not one theory really, it is the combined result of genetics, biology, chemistry, and quite a few other sciences. If you're trying to understand how HIV could have possibly jumped from furry apes to hairless apes, you need to understand evolution. If you want to understand the human genome and biologically why life, noticeably human life, is the way it is, you need to understand evolution.

Atomic theory doesn't effect most people in their daily lives either. I doubt you directly profit from atomic theory unless you're a chemist or pharmacist. But atomic theory has helped science, noticeably chemistry and biology, just as evolution has helped science, noticeably genetics and biology, and all of these things end up indirectly helping the human race as a whole.

We use evolution every day when we wake up and live, when we notice ants around us, when we see trees forming forests. All of these are here because of evolution; I'd say that's far more important than any machines we've created.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643041 - 09/10/05 07:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

well science IS onto something, but theory of evolution is not like other scientific theories, we use other theories and test them day after day whenever we power up our machines, but theory of evolution is more like a tale because it has absolutley no effect on anything we do today. Perhapse it is true, but we are far from being able to test it.




It has no effect on anything, eh?

Evolution is not one theory really, it is the combined result of genetics, biology, chemistry, and quite a few other sciences. If you're trying to understand how HIV could have possibly jumped from furry apes to hairless apes, you need to understand evolution. If you want to understand the human genome and biologically why life, noticeably human life, is the way it is, you need to understand evolution.

Atomic theory doesn't effect most people in their daily lives either. I doubt you directly profit from atomic theory unless you're a chemist or pharmacist. But atomic theory has helped science, noticeably chemistry and biology, just as evolution has helped science, noticeably genetics and biology, and all of these things end up indirectly helping the human race as a whole.

We use evolution every day when we wake up and live, when we notice ants around us, when we see trees forming forests. All of these are here because of evolution; I'd say that's far more important than any machines we've created.




and how do you apply all of this to medicine?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643042 - 09/10/05 07:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.




why can't you test it?




Because you cannot create a hypothesis related to intelligent design and test it.

We can't test a massive theory like evolution at once, because it has many parts to it and takes place over millions of years. But you can dissect it into its respective parts, such as genetics, organic chemistry, cells, etc. and then make hypotheses about these and form a grander, more refined view of evolution.

But intelligent design has no respective parts. Intelligent design isn't made of different sciences or parts, because it is not part of science and cannot be observed in this universe. You can't say, "Today we're going to test the Son, tomorrow the Father, and Friday the Holy Ghost," because intelligent design is just a religion and faith-based idea.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4643044 - 09/10/05 07:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm curious Diploid where you think life originated. Do you believe in panspermia?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643066 - 09/10/05 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.




why can't you test it?




Because you cannot create a hypothesis related to intelligent design and test it.

We can't test a massive theory like evolution at once, because it has many parts to it and takes place over millions of years. But you can dissect it into its respective parts, such as genetics, organic chemistry, cells, etc. and then make hypotheses about these and form a grander, more refined view of evolution.

But intelligent design has no respective parts. Intelligent design isn't made of different sciences or parts, because it is not part of science and cannot be observed in this universe. You can't say, "Today we're going to test the Son, tomorrow the Father, and Friday the Holy Ghost," because intelligent design is just a religion and faith-based idea.




design can be dysected, why not?
when people make a car in the factory, the process can be dysected in creating doors, engine etc.

You are assuming a few things:
1. intelligent design is supose to explain the creation of the universe. Well we ain't talking about that, we are talking about life on earth.
2. intelligent design relates to religion.

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing

please do not go outside these two words, we are talking about these two words only


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643080 - 09/10/05 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing






God had to be intelligent, a great designer and a hard worker to create oops I mean design and build the world in just seven short days.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643093 - 09/10/05 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing






God had to be intelligent, a great designer and a hard worker to create oops I mean design and build the world in just seven short days.




The words "intelligent design" do not contain the information of the lenght of this action, do they?


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Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643131 - 09/10/05 08:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The words "intelligent design" do not contain the information of the lenght of this action, do they?




No, which wouldn't eliminate the possibility that it took a week. Just like the Good Book says.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643157 - 09/10/05 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

The words "intelligent design" do not contain the information of the lenght of this action, do they?




No, which wouldn't eliminate the possibility that it took a week. Just like the Good Book says.




no it doesn't eliminate that possibility, but you can't use it as an argument against it because it does not claim this to be true?
all this idea claims is that something intelligent made life as a design. It could been made in a factory, a lab, or some unknown process that is beyond our understanding at this point.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643178 - 09/10/05 08:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who is confusing the biblical God with an intelligent designer is the question.

Who thinks an intelligent designer will EVER be found apart from intelligent designs themselves, evolution included?

Even if you found it which I don't believe you could or would, your stuck with the next question of, "what intelligence, designed and created that? What Intelligence designed and created that?

Science is in the same quandary. What made he planet, what made the cell? What made the molecule? What made the atom? What made the electron. What made the quark, what made the gluon.

I don't think it will ever end for science either, finding a beginning that is.

All we can do is observe, experience and relate to what is and reflect on what has been and foresee what is yet to possibly be or transcend it all and be it all in which case, you still can't tell it a part from yourself no matter how you cut it.

Thats tough for people to accept.

Why worship an intelligent designer when it is only evident and experienced or observed from within intelligent design itself?

One might as well worship poo, serial killers, destructive fires, and Satan. Those who worship the Biblical God, say that their God didn't make such things. It didn't make an angel to turn on it? It didn't make serial murder possible? It didn't make digestible food that becomes poo, it didn't make the food? It didn't make combustible materials or the element of fire?

Maybe if they question this stuff more, they will start to wonder what the heck it is they are worshiping.

If one of them would say, they would never create destructive fires or murderers, or foul substances like poo then they must think they are better then their God and are blasphemers anyway and are going to hell for it so, who gets the last laugh if it's all true anyway?

Does anyone yet have a name for one who believes in the intelligent design of evolution and the evolution of intelligent design, but not the Biblical God as the source of all creation?


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