Home | Community | Message Board

Reliable Spores
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale   North Spore Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4725116 - 09/28/05 01:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

first and foremost, it's the most egotistical thing in the entire world to believe that humans are the POINT of the universe, as if it was all built around us ... such doesn't seem to be the case ... that's pretty much electing yourself into a higher position, as if the universe is supposed to accomodate FOR you ... it's the other way around, we were TREATED to this opportunity to experience highs and lows in life

Like I told FG above, I'm just using the standard proponents of ID use: a loving, caring, merciful Designer (God). If you think that standard has shortcomings, take it up with them.

All I'm doing is pointing out that such a Designer would not have designed a universe full of children dieing of leukemia unless he was incompetent.

Don't shoot the messenger...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineHB
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 42,528
Last seen: 3 months, 21 days
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4725213 - 09/28/05 02:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

sorry, i guess my statement came out unexpectedly harsh :wink: when i said YOU i didn't mean to accuse specifically you of anything, i was using it generally ...

but anyway ...

as far as diseases go and all ... i've almost 100% 'cured' my supposedly incurable diseases by switching to an all-organic diet, a switch VERY FEW people will ever make ... i have severe immune deficiency (and vitamin deficiency and everything deficient) from my disorders ... and yet, every since starting my organic diet and eliminating ALL western medicines and processed foods, my disease has GONE THE FUCK AWAY with only minorly reminding me of it after eating something i shouldn't have ... and so on ...

not one western medicine doctor i knew could believe it since they dose people up the ass all the time for my conditions and nothing fixes ... why?  because the FDA wouldn't make money if everybody knew that all natural diseases have natural cures ... my diseases were CAUSED by humans and their need to save money and time making food by making food NOT food!  it was also caused by me being as gullible as the rest of society as to how truly necessary organic food is to live ...

processed food has no nutritional value WHATSOEVER ... these companies are out to make as much money as possible, not give you the best product possible ...

for example ... McDonalds, with their new advertisements ... 'now with real chicken!' ... holy god, what was in there before?  it's not god's fault himself that people decided money was more important than health when given the choice ... it's not his fault what you put in your body ... it's YOUR choice ... you are what YOU eat ...

my diet restricts me to NEVER being allowed to eat out with friends, girlfriends, etc.  i always have to make sure ahead of time i have food or i suffer and starve, or i eat processed food and have panic attacks and pain and suffering ...

this is still MY CHOICE, so god is being merciful in that he is not just saying 'screw you go to hell', he made other options for me ... i just had to go find them myself, and it took 365 days a year for 4 years to finally understand the right path for me ...

there will always be alternate paths for people in this world to not suffer, but the paths are not easy and not easy to find ... but they ARE there, and that, truly, is the mercy of god, i feel ... the eternal love i've found in the universe comes with the understanding that the love would mean nothing without the contrast of pain and suffering

just my opinions of course, my opinions still being EGO as much as i'd wish they weren't ... as players INSIDE the game, we can never see it from the outside and see god's true motives without being god himself OUTSIDE of this bubble of reality ...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineXUL
OTD Janitor
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 28,261
Loc: America Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4725252 - 09/28/05 02:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If only adam and eve wouldnt have eaten the apple....


--------------------
TRUMP 2020


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4725263 - 09/28/05 02:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes.Sweet. :thumbup: Lot's of posts dude. You're my hero. :wink: I just checked your ratings. You're not connected to that God guy that everyone keeps talking about are you? :mushroom2:


Edited by Icelander (09/28/05 02:30 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Icelander]
    #4725470 - 09/28/05 03:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Well, that's not quite what I'm doing.

My 'conception' in this context is that of the Designer (God) the folks who've put forth the Intelligent Design argument worship, and that's almost always some flavor of the standard-issue Christian God.

That particular flavor of God is all merciful, loving, caring, etc., and those qualities are inconsistent with a design that visits leukemia on children.

That's why the design is stoopid: because it causes suffering and that's in conflict with a designer who is compassionate and loving. ID is not in compliance with the system design specifications.
"

do you realize you're just making the same old problem of evil argument which has been debated for centuries? many philosophers have considered and/or proposed answers to this question over the past several hundred years, maybe you should try to show how those answers are unacceptable rather than simply restating the
question.


"Like I told FG above, I'm just using the standard proponents of ID use: a loving, caring, merciful Designer (God). If you think that standard has shortcomings, take it up with them.

All I'm doing is pointing out that such a Designer would not have designed a universe full of children dieing of leukemia unless he was incompetent.

Don't shoot the messenger...
"

you're saying it as if you think it is some new idea that hasn't been answered or accounted for. do you think you're the first person to think of this?


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 03:21 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4725514 - 09/28/05 03:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

" Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it."

i don't follow your argument, why would it need intervention along the way? all the designer would need to do would be lay out the initial laws of existance.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4725566 - 09/28/05 03:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Has your disease completely gone away, or have you managed to severely reduce symptoms? How do you know that there wasn't some single ingredient in a food that you normally ate, one little thing that you had an allergy to or something that was making things worse?


processed food has no nutritional value WHATSOEVER ... these companies are out to make as much money as possible, not give you the best product possible ...

What do you mean it doesn't have any nutritional value whatsoever? Have you looked up the statistics? Done tests yourself to measure the vitamin/caloric/protein content of processed foods? Or are you assuming this based on the fact that your disease has gotten better?

I mean, in order for there to be no nutritional value whatsoever, the companies would have to be working to remove nutrients from the food. This would cost a lot more than simply preparing it for sale.

When people do research in medicine, say they wanted to find out if Chron's symptoms could be eliminated by not eating any processed foods, they'd start with a large group of people. Why? Because you can't assume anything based on a sample of one. There are tons of other factors at play at any single time, so we need to look at a large group, and look for noticable trends.

So we take 100 people with Chron's, and we put them on a diet like yours. But that's not enough yet, what if the belief that you're on an all organic diet is having the effect? What if it's something else about the way that the experiment is being carried out, like for example the way that the meals are all being eaten in regular portions at an exact time of day every day? We'll need a control group. Another 100 people with Chron's who will be fed essentially the same diet, only made from processed foods. The people will not know which group they are in.

Then we keep that up for a year or so, and make sure that we carefully document as much about everything as we can. Then we can look at statistics, there will always be anomalies, people who suddenly do significantly better for a while, people who do worse, but say 88% of the people with the organic diet get significantly better and 75% of the people with the other diet get significantly better. Well, that would show that there's something to the organic diet, but it's not necessarily the perfect solution.

Somehow I doubt that you've tested your theory that much.

Oh, and the McDonald's ads say "Now with real chicken breast!" Because they used to just be a bunch of mashed up dark meat.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4725601 - 09/28/05 03:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
" Seriously though, if someone thinks life as complicated as us requires intelligent design, I'd suggest they ask their parents where babies come from. Apparently a single cell in the mother's womb taking 9 months to become a human doesn't require any intelligent design along the way, but somehow life evolving from single-celled organism over billions of years is impossible without it."

i don't follow your argument, why would it need intervention along the way? all the designer would need to do would be lay out the initial laws of existance.



That's not the argument that the intelligent design crowd makes. That's more along the line of the arguments made in Deism.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 3 hours
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4726041 - 09/28/05 05:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You do not read my meaning correctly. I am not addressing whatever conception you hold and reject about a "thinking, sentient being like us." That notion is absurd. I am addressing the 'metaphysical infrastructure' of Reality (to use my own words), and like others who share that consideration, I am positing that 'It' ([S]He) is Intelligence Itself. That contention does not apply merely to human beings, it applies to all of creation. I am coming from Intuition, not my Thinking function (according to the Jungian MBTI) when I suggest this. It is a global, expansive intuition, not arrived at by ratiocination (i.e., "exact thinking, reasoning").


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4726217 - 09/28/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

do you realize you're just making the same old problem of evil argument which has been debated for centuries? many philosophers have considered and/or proposed answers to this question over the past several hundred years, maybe you should try to show how those answers are unacceptable rather than simply restating the
question.


I'm not asking any questions. I'm pointing out that if the universe was designed and if the Designer is the standard-issue Christian God (which it is by most ID proponents' own admission) then the design (which tortures and kills little kids with leukemia) falls short of it's requirements.

If God is all loving, the design sucks. If God is a sadistic asshole, the design meets specs and ID proponents have got God all wrong. Which is it? :shrug:

you're saying it as if you think it is some new idea that hasn't been answered or accounted for. do you think you're the first person to think of this?

What does who thought of the idea have to do with the price of tea?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Diploid]
    #4726834 - 09/28/05 08:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"I'm not asking any questions. I'm pointing out that if the universe was designed and if the Designer is the standard-issue Christian God (which it is by most ID proponents' own admission) then the design (which tortures and kills little kids with leukemia) falls short of it's requirements.

If God is all loving, the design sucks. If God is a sadistic asshole, the design meets specs and ID proponents have got God all wrong. Which is it? "

so your argument rests on the premise that if God was good little children wouldn't suffer which is as i said the problem of evil. the problem with this is that we cannot prove that premise. what if there is a reason for the suffering that we don't see? most religions have postulated the concept of a "fall" in which humans lost the grace of God and that is the reason for the suffering on earth. as long as possible explanations exist we cannot say for sure that the design sucks and so your argument doesn't hold up. you're essentially saying "this isn't the type of world i would expect to see if an all loving God existed, therefore such a God does not exist." one possibility is that you are correct, the other is that your expectation is somehow off, that there is some peice of information you are lacking. the problem of evil is a fascinating issue in any philosophy that postulates an all good, all powerful God.


"What does who thought of the idea have to do with the price of tea? "

i'm saying that many people have thought of this and found ways around it, in order to make your argument stronger you need to refute any and all possible reasons evil could exist in a world created by a good God.


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 08:38 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727008 - 09/28/05 09:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

so your argument rests on the premise that if God was good little children wouldn't suffer

Nope.

I'm saying that if God is what Intelligent Design proponents say he is (all loving), then the design sucks (because it tortures children).  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineHB
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 42,528
Last seen: 3 months, 21 days
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Phluck]
    #4727154 - 09/28/05 09:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Phluck --

indeed, all of my posts and every opinion i will ever have will just be that ... an opinion ...

as far as my diseases go, i have put them into remission (the crohn's, at least) but yes the celiac disease is not and will never go away ... i'm also allergic to dairy ...

on that note, however, i wasn't saying there's a cure-all for life and i've found it ... rather, i've found it for myself, which is why i try to spread to people to learn on their OWN, think for THEMSELVES and learn to trust instincts more than a majority of people saying this or that ... majority means nothing more than that a number of people said something and agreed ... at one point in history, the majority of people thought the world was flat ... and that the universe revolved around the world ... and we all know a little better now :wink:

frankly, all i endorse is people thinking for themselves, and finding solutions for their life rather than having solutions told to them or concluding anything before trying ...

had i never taken SUCH a big risk and left every western med doctor, gotten off every western medicine, quit opiates after a 3 year addiction without rehab, and changed to organic food all based on a HUNCH that told me that i could fix my diseases naturally better than any doctor ever could ...

i can say very easily at this moment i would have ODed or been dead or not cared if i died today had i continued that bullshit western path ...

everything i've learned about my disease i've learned through experience ... when you have a body as sensitive as mine and spend every waking second for 4 years+ dealing with constant issues, you learn a LOT about it ...

as far as processed food goes ... look at all the junk inside ... tell me where a natural High Fructose Corn Syrup plant with Artificial Colors and Artificial Flavors and Artificial Preservatives is and I'll agree that any of that has any place in our body ...

you're right, i DON'T have evidence and quotes to prove it ... this is my BELIEF ... my philosophy, if you will ... we come from the earth, not from a laboratory, so we can fix whatever is wrong inside using natural methods ...

i only say what i believe so people can do with it as they will ... i just believe so wholly in organic food, also based on how i used to feel pre-diagnoses ... i feel BETTER than EVER ... and that's all that matters to me ... feeling good

i've spent 4 years in purgatory with my conditions and addiction, but now that i'm beyond that, my duty is to help guide those who feel i can be beneficial and enjoy my life to the fullest ... life truly is beautiful once you find your own individual place in it ...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: HB]
    #4727249 - 09/28/05 10:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Nope.

I'm saying that if God is what Intelligent Design proponents say he is (all loving), then the design sucks (because it tortures children)"

how is that different from what i said minus a little summarizing on my part? my argument still applies. what if there could be a reason that an all loving God would allow children to suffer? until we can firmly rule out the possibility of there being a possible reason for it we cannot say for certain that the design sucks.


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 10:03 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727282 - 09/28/05 10:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We can say with certainty the design sucks for the children, for their families, for society and for humanity as a whole. Other than that though, we cannot say it for certain. :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727303 - 09/28/05 10:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

we cannot even say that for certain, is the "suckyness" inherent in the design or has something gone wrong on the part of humans? much of the suffering there is today happens as a result of human choices. perhaps the suffering is there so that humans can learn from to make better choices.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727326 - 09/28/05 10:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So having a useless organ God put in there like the appendix become inflammed and make the child die a painful death is humanity's fault? Why isn't it the fault of the designer for putting useless organs in there? (Since it's certainly not left over from evolution.)


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727413 - 09/28/05 10:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the appendix could just be left over from evolution. do you expect it to just dissapear instantly when humans no longer need it?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Deviate]
    #4727434 - 09/28/05 10:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There is no evolution! There's only intelligent design! Otherwise, evolution and intelligent design wouldn't be discussed as separate issues, would they? The advocates for intelligent design are saying intelligent design is a realistic alternative to evolution, not the cause of evolution.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Stoopid Design [Re: Ravus]
    #4727463 - 09/28/05 10:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i wasn't aware of that, i thought it was proven that organisms evolve/ change over time. i thought ID was the belief that evolution/the existance of complex life forms was not an "accident" but was "designed" to occur. otherwise how does it differ from creaitonism?


Edited by Deviate (09/28/05 10:44 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale   North Spore Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Matrix Reloaded True Meaning/ Transcript of Neo/Architect
( 1 2 3 all )
HagbardCeline 6,583 45 04/17/12 02:47 AM
by Buster_Brown
* nipples on guys and why 2 testicles? Mindash 997 12 09/05/05 12:15 PM
by drtyfrnk
* Bible sez testicle grabbing is a no-no
( 1 2 all )
Temptress 4,304 34 04/12/06 11:57 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Argument by Design Bullfrog1 1,527 10 12/09/07 09:38 PM
by Holly
* How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
dr0mni 11,223 103 05/17/09 04:49 AM
by Darwinian
* The Problem With The Intelligent Design Debate
( 1 2 3 all )
Divided_Sky 4,643 42 10/06/05 07:05 PM
by dr0mni
* Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
DiploidM 13,229 102 08/10/05 02:54 AM
by MushmanTheManic
* intelligent design or evolution? tak 2,653 18 08/12/04 02:46 AM
by Strumpling

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
7,939 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 17 queries.