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Offlinedr0mni
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How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory?
    #4642527 - 09/10/05 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is a serious question, and I'm very curious. Although I personally think that IDT is full of shit, I do believe in the divinity of all natural phenomenon. And if this theory CAN be scientifically proven I will humble myself and say to everyone "I stand corrected".

This thread is NOT for a debate about IDT, so please don't start arguing the specifics of IDT vs. Evolution.

This thread is for the discussion of HOW IDT could/would be tested and confirmed as a legitimate scientific idea. What evidence actually SUPPORTS IDT (I'm NOT asking for evidence which simply discredits evolution, that does not PROVE IDT)?

Okay.... GO!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4642538 - 09/10/05 04:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

By looking for the creator of course


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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OfflineGomp
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4642552 - 09/10/05 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

by experiencing it? :P


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4642582 - 09/10/05 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You are intelligent, you can design things and you can create life. Your ability to do this evolves. You evolve.

Why does ID have to be opposed to evolution? Why can't evolution be a part of ID?

You are your proof, like gomp said.  :smile:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4642632 - 09/10/05 05:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Intelligent design is not a theory. It is creationism renamed.

Creationism is a story, not a theory. How can one test that? Either you believe the story or you don't...


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4642659 - 09/10/05 05:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Intelligent design is not a theory. It is creationism renamed.

Creationism is a story, not a theory. How can one test that? Either you believe the story or you don't...




then what is it a hypothesis? how do you call it in scientific terms?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4642675 - 09/10/05 05:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Intelligent design is not a theory. It is creationism renamed.

Creationism is a story, not a theory. How can one test that? Either you believe the story or you don't...




Supose you find a funny shaped stone in nature, some say man carved it, others say it's one of those natural stones that look different by coincidence.

Are you saying that you can only verify if it was made by coincidence in nature, and not verify if it was carved by humans?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4642692 - 09/10/05 05:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Lunar,

Do you believe you slept in your bed last night? Is it a theory? Is it a fact you can prove? Is it something you know you did because, you experienced it for yourself and need no proof?

Did you create your garden and design it yourself, or is it just a story you tell people. Taking pictures of garden, just means it's there. Do you have video tape to prove you created it?

Do you have video tape of what happened before the Big Bang?

ID is not creationism renamed. Creationism is a story from the Bible. Theory are many people who experience the evolution of the Intelligent designer, who don't believe Bible Stories. There are people who experience evolution to be a part of Intelligent design and Intelligent design to be a part of evolution.

I'm one of them.

The conflict between Science and Religion is that each wants to separate intelligent design from evolution. The two will reconcile when they realize they are the same dynamic. Some people think the Intelligent Designer is nature itself. That has nothing to do with religious creationism stories.

It's not a belief for me. I experience it everyday and so do you. It's simple. Remember your KISS post?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642728 - 09/10/05 05:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

if creation of life took place by means of intelligent design, the process could have been videotaped as jiggy says. And remember, intelligent design has to do with life on earth, not really creation of the universe, but living organisms on earth. If an intelligent being created those, it would have to be a complex and long process which would leave traces.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4642752 - 09/10/05 05:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Supose you find a funny shaped stone in nature, some say man carved it, others say it's one of those natural stones that look different by coincidence.

Are you saying that you can only verify if it was made by coincidence in nature, and not verify if it was carved by humans?


Speaking of mysterious rock carvings, any explanation for who carved the statues on Easter Island?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4642757 - 09/10/05 05:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ya, experience it, like gomp said, and see where it takes you.

enjoy!


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4642758 - 09/10/05 05:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like you misunderstood me wood.

By the video taped remark I made, all i meant to say is that we don't have video tape evidence of what happened to cause the Big Bang.

Lunar probably doesn't have video taped evidence to show how he designed and created his garden and left room for it to evolve over time either.

Does that mean he didn't do it?

My understanding of ID is that it is related to the Universe.

Creationism comes from the Bible and is related to this planet.

Perhaps dromni needs to post his definition of Intelligent design.

My understanding of it is that evolution is a part of it.

Of course, we need to be working with Dromnis definition since it's his proposition.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642778 - 09/10/05 06:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The conflict between Science and Religion is that each wants to separate intelligent design from evolution. The two will reconcile when they realize they are the same dynamic. Some people think the Intelligent Designer is nature itself. That has nothing to do with religious creationism stories.

It's not a belief for me. I experience it everyday and so do you. It's simple. Remember your KISS post?




I don't think that the people touting ID view it as nature itself. I think they view ID as some intelligent Godlike force outside of nature that designed and created man.

It's more about religion driving politics and changing biology class into equal time for religion class IMO.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4642824 - 09/10/05 06:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That was a topic here months ago.

What it is now is dromni asking if anyone can prove intelligent design.

Evolution itself is an intelligent design. He's a part of it as an observer, experiencer and intelligent designer that evolves himself.

What is one to call intelligent designs like a bridge? What other words can be used? If I build a bridge to get me from here to there, using my intelligence and a design why do I suddenly have to beleive in the Bible story of Creationism or be creating a front for it?

What if my bridge designs become more complex as my experience and understanding of them evolves over time? What does the Bible have to do with that?

And why didn't you answer any of my questions?

Do you need me to prove to you where you slept last night? Of course not. And why? Because you experienced it for yourself and you know where you slept. Do you need any other proof for you to beleive where you slept last night other then having experienced it for yourself?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Gomp]
    #4642845 - 09/10/05 06:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"what creates was, created, still creating!"
-Unknown :P


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642859 - 09/10/05 06:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why can't evolution be a part of ID?

It could be, no scientist says otherwise. However there is currently no evidence for ID. Not the tiniest little bit. None at all. :shrug:


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4642867 - 09/10/05 06:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Would a scientists say that there is nothing intelligent about evolution or the design of the universe?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642885 - 09/10/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A scientist would say that there is no evidence the universe was designed. This doesn't make the universe any less amazing; the opposite, I'd say.

The Pythagorean Theorem is a very clever consequence of number theory, but it was not designed any more than 2 + 2 = 4 was designed.

It just is.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642893 - 09/10/05 06:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Evolution is actually rather stupid and clumsy. Most mutants die before they are born, or don't survive long after. How intelligent of a design is that? Evolution is really about the occasional mutant with a trait that allows it to reproduce a little better than the average population of that species when acted upon by forces of nature.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642903 - 09/10/05 06:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps dromni needs to post his definition of Intelligent design.

My understanding of it is that evolution is a part of it.





Yes, Dr Omni please post your definition of ID!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4642905 - 09/10/05 06:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Supose you find a funny shaped stone in nature, some say man carved it, others say it's one of those natural stones that look different by coincidence.

Are you saying that you can only verify if it was made by coincidence in nature, and not verify if it was carved by humans?


Speaking of mysterious rock carvings, any explanation for who carved the statues on Easter Island?





evolution


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4642907 - 09/10/05 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Sounds like you misunderstood me wood.

By the video taped remark I made, all i meant to say is that we don't have video tape evidence of what happened to cause the Big Bang.

Lunar probably doesn't have video taped evidence to show how he designed and created his garden and left room for it to evolve over time either.

Does that mean he didn't do it?

My understanding of ID is that it is related to the Universe.

Creationism comes from the Bible and is related to this planet.

Perhaps dromni needs to post his definition of Intelligent design.

My understanding of it is that evolution is a part of it.

Of course, we need to be working with Dromnis definition since it's his proposition.




No I didn't misunderstood you, I was just using your video tape example, nothing more


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4642924 - 09/10/05 06:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why can't evolution be a part of ID?

It could be, no scientist says otherwise. However there is currently no evidence for ID. Not the tiniest little bit. None at all. :shrug:




the evidence, or leads to be more accurate lie in two things:
1. existence of life
2. the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter.

Biology so far believes in a miracle. One one hand they say no life can spring out of non living matter. And on other hand they say that universe made an exeption once. This exeption IS a miracle, because chances are so small.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4642938 - 09/10/05 06:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

1. existence of life

The existence of life does not require a designer.

the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter

Where did you get this? There is no such rule, at least none among biologists, though some church guy with a second grade science education may have invented it one day and passed it on as if it were true.

Biology so far believes in a miracle

Nope, biology has no 'beliefs' at all. It observes chemistry causing biology and so theorizes that biology is caused by chemistry. It has never observed God causing anything at all.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.

This is true, so far. At one time, science relied on speculation that atoms exist. It still does in the form of the Atomic Theory because no human has ever seen an atom. However, the Atomic Theory incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also runs the nuclear power plant that's powering my PC.

I think science is onto something...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4642942 - 09/10/05 06:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Biology so far believes in a miracle. One one hand they say no life can spring out of non living matter. And on other hand they say that universe made an exeption once. This exeption IS a miracle, because chances are so small.






We are evolved from comets.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4642956 - 09/10/05 07:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
A scientist would say that there is no evidence the universe was designed. This doesn't make the universe any less amazing; the opposite, I'd say.

The Pythagorean Theorem is a very clever consequence of number theory, but it was not designed any more than 2 + 2 = 4 was designed.

It just is.




Right. It just is a design. A design that would take intelligence for us to recognize it just being.

I see design, intelligence and evolution all interwoven and us as observers, intelligent designers and evolving beings all interwoven.

Why does it have to be separated? Why can't the process itself be the Intelligent Designer?

Why can't we recognize intelligent designs that are and not have to go along with Bible creationism.

What would I call my belief if I think the whole process of evolution is an intelligent design?

I can't just say I am an evolutionist because that implies there is no intelligence behind the design. I look at the complexity of the human body or how a sperm and egg turn into a Diploid and say , "Damn. However, this came to be had some smarts behind it. Even if it is evolution itself."

I think there are a lot of us who don't know what the label is for our understanding, experiences or observations of what is. We aren't creationists who believe in the Bible and we aren't evolutionists who think there is absolutely nothing intelligent behind the design of venomous fangs.

Even you said, "A clever consequence" How did the clever get in there?

Cause and effect itself is a clever design. Without cause and effect there would be no clever and without clever there would be no cause and effect.

All I have to say is, Dromni, will you clear up what you mean by ID? If you want someone to prove Bible Creationism, I'm out of this.

If you want proof of the intelligence in the design of evolution then, it's right in front of you. It is you.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4642998 - 09/10/05 07:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
1. existence of life

The existence of life does not require a designer.

the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter

Where did you get this? There is no such rule, at least none among biologists, though some church guy with a second grade science education may have invented it one day and passed it on as if it were true.

Biology so far believes in a miracle

Nope, biology has no 'beliefs' at all. It observes chemistry causing biology and so theorizes that biology is caused by chemistry. It has never observed God causing anything at all.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.

This is true, so far. At one time, science relied on speculation that atoms exist. It still does in the form of the Atomic Theory because no human has ever seen an atom. However, the Atomic Theory incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also runs the nuclear power plant that's powering my PC.

I think science is onto something...




You can see images of atoms with electronic microscopes. They are not actually visible balls, they are more like signitures rendered to an image, but in a way we CAN see atoms today.

As for the rule. Well, that's what they taught us on biology class.
In the old days people used to believe that frogs and flies can come to existence out of dead matter like watter. Then biology came and said frogs come out of little eggs in the watter and they can't come out of watter.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4643011 - 09/10/05 07:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
1. existence of life

The existence of life does not require a designer.

the biological rule that life comes from life and can not be created out of inanimate matter

Where did you get this? There is no such rule, at least none among biologists, though some church guy with a second grade science education may have invented it one day and passed it on as if it were true.

Biology so far believes in a miracle

Nope, biology has no 'beliefs' at all. It observes chemistry causing biology and so theorizes that biology is caused by chemistry. It has never observed God causing anything at all.

Science has never witnessed any form of life be created out of any non DNA matter. Science relies on speculation that it is possible.

This is true, so far. At one time, science relied on speculation that atoms exist. It still does in the form of the Atomic Theory because no human has ever seen an atom. However, the Atomic Theory incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also runs the nuclear power plant that's powering my PC.

I think science is onto something...




well science IS onto something, but theory of evolution is not like other scientific theories, we use other theories and test them day after day whenever we power up our machines, but theory of evolution is more like a tale because it has absolutley no effect on anything we do today. Perhapse it is true, but we are far from being able to test it.

there is one thing about intelligent design that makes it possible:
we do it every day, we make machines, we make moving, reacting things out of inanimate materials. Our everyday work is a living proof that intelligent design is possible:
We KNOW that a living creature can arrange inanimate materials to create something that in a primitive way "lives", if we used more sophisticated technology, our creations could match us, and they probably will one day.

That does not say anything FOR ID, but it makes it POSSIBLE because it has been demonstrated by us


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643017 - 09/10/05 07:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643023 - 09/10/05 07:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.




why can't you test it?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643032 - 09/10/05 07:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

well science IS onto something, but theory of evolution is not like other scientific theories, we use other theories and test them day after day whenever we power up our machines, but theory of evolution is more like a tale because it has absolutley no effect on anything we do today. Perhapse it is true, but we are far from being able to test it.




It has no effect on anything, eh?

Evolution is not one theory really, it is the combined result of genetics, biology, chemistry, and quite a few other sciences. If you're trying to understand how HIV could have possibly jumped from furry apes to hairless apes, you need to understand evolution. If you want to understand the human genome and biologically why life, noticeably human life, is the way it is, you need to understand evolution.

Atomic theory doesn't effect most people in their daily lives either. I doubt you directly profit from atomic theory unless you're a chemist or pharmacist. But atomic theory has helped science, noticeably chemistry and biology, just as evolution has helped science, noticeably genetics and biology, and all of these things end up indirectly helping the human race as a whole.

We use evolution every day when we wake up and live, when we notice ants around us, when we see trees forming forests. All of these are here because of evolution; I'd say that's far more important than any machines we've created.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643041 - 09/10/05 07:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

well science IS onto something, but theory of evolution is not like other scientific theories, we use other theories and test them day after day whenever we power up our machines, but theory of evolution is more like a tale because it has absolutley no effect on anything we do today. Perhapse it is true, but we are far from being able to test it.




It has no effect on anything, eh?

Evolution is not one theory really, it is the combined result of genetics, biology, chemistry, and quite a few other sciences. If you're trying to understand how HIV could have possibly jumped from furry apes to hairless apes, you need to understand evolution. If you want to understand the human genome and biologically why life, noticeably human life, is the way it is, you need to understand evolution.

Atomic theory doesn't effect most people in their daily lives either. I doubt you directly profit from atomic theory unless you're a chemist or pharmacist. But atomic theory has helped science, noticeably chemistry and biology, just as evolution has helped science, noticeably genetics and biology, and all of these things end up indirectly helping the human race as a whole.

We use evolution every day when we wake up and live, when we notice ants around us, when we see trees forming forests. All of these are here because of evolution; I'd say that's far more important than any machines we've created.




and how do you apply all of this to medicine?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643042 - 09/10/05 07:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.




why can't you test it?




Because you cannot create a hypothesis related to intelligent design and test it.

We can't test a massive theory like evolution at once, because it has many parts to it and takes place over millions of years. But you can dissect it into its respective parts, such as genetics, organic chemistry, cells, etc. and then make hypotheses about these and form a grander, more refined view of evolution.

But intelligent design has no respective parts. Intelligent design isn't made of different sciences or parts, because it is not part of science and cannot be observed in this universe. You can't say, "Today we're going to test the Son, tomorrow the Father, and Friday the Holy Ghost," because intelligent design is just a religion and faith-based idea.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4643044 - 09/10/05 07:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm curious Diploid where you think life originated. Do you believe in panspermia?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643066 - 09/10/05 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
Not only is Intelligent Design not a theory, it's not even a hypothesis. To call "Intelligent Design" a theory is to discredit science and the scientific method as a whole.

You cannot test Intelligent Design obviously; there's no possible way to test it outside of "faith", so it is not science and shouldn't be compared to science.




why can't you test it?




Because you cannot create a hypothesis related to intelligent design and test it.

We can't test a massive theory like evolution at once, because it has many parts to it and takes place over millions of years. But you can dissect it into its respective parts, such as genetics, organic chemistry, cells, etc. and then make hypotheses about these and form a grander, more refined view of evolution.

But intelligent design has no respective parts. Intelligent design isn't made of different sciences or parts, because it is not part of science and cannot be observed in this universe. You can't say, "Today we're going to test the Son, tomorrow the Father, and Friday the Holy Ghost," because intelligent design is just a religion and faith-based idea.




design can be dysected, why not?
when people make a car in the factory, the process can be dysected in creating doors, engine etc.

You are assuming a few things:
1. intelligent design is supose to explain the creation of the universe. Well we ain't talking about that, we are talking about life on earth.
2. intelligent design relates to religion.

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing

please do not go outside these two words, we are talking about these two words only


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643080 - 09/10/05 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing






God had to be intelligent, a great designer and a hard worker to create oops I mean design and build the world in just seven short days.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643093 - 09/10/05 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing






God had to be intelligent, a great designer and a hard worker to create oops I mean design and build the world in just seven short days.




The words "intelligent design" do not contain the information of the lenght of this action, do they?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643131 - 09/10/05 08:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The words "intelligent design" do not contain the information of the lenght of this action, do they?




No, which wouldn't eliminate the possibility that it took a week. Just like the Good Book says.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643157 - 09/10/05 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

The words "intelligent design" do not contain the information of the lenght of this action, do they?




No, which wouldn't eliminate the possibility that it took a week. Just like the Good Book says.




no it doesn't eliminate that possibility, but you can't use it as an argument against it because it does not claim this to be true?
all this idea claims is that something intelligent made life as a design. It could been made in a factory, a lab, or some unknown process that is beyond our understanding at this point.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643178 - 09/10/05 08:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who is confusing the biblical God with an intelligent designer is the question.

Who thinks an intelligent designer will EVER be found apart from intelligent designs themselves, evolution included?

Even if you found it which I don't believe you could or would, your stuck with the next question of, "what intelligence, designed and created that? What Intelligence designed and created that?

Science is in the same quandary. What made he planet, what made the cell? What made the molecule? What made the atom? What made the electron. What made the quark, what made the gluon.

I don't think it will ever end for science either, finding a beginning that is.

All we can do is observe, experience and relate to what is and reflect on what has been and foresee what is yet to possibly be or transcend it all and be it all in which case, you still can't tell it a part from yourself no matter how you cut it.

Thats tough for people to accept.

Why worship an intelligent designer when it is only evident and experienced or observed from within intelligent design itself?

One might as well worship poo, serial killers, destructive fires, and Satan. Those who worship the Biblical God, say that their God didn't make such things. It didn't make an angel to turn on it? It didn't make serial murder possible? It didn't make digestible food that becomes poo, it didn't make the food? It didn't make combustible materials or the element of fire?

Maybe if they question this stuff more, they will start to wonder what the heck it is they are worshiping.

If one of them would say, they would never create destructive fires or murderers, or foul substances like poo then they must think they are better then their God and are blasphemers anyway and are going to hell for it so, who gets the last laugh if it's all true anyway?

Does anyone yet have a name for one who believes in the intelligent design of evolution and the evolution of intelligent design, but not the Biblical God as the source of all creation?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643230 - 09/10/05 08:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

when people make a car in the factory, the process can be dysected in creating doors, engine etc.

You are assuming a few things:
1. intelligent design is supose to explain the creation of the universe. Well we ain't talking about that, we are talking about life on earth.
2. intelligent design relates to religion.

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing

please do not go outside these two words, we are talking about these two words only




I never deviated from these two words. We can never verify any design created from intelligence, nor can we ever test it. Hence, it is a result of faith, and not science. I am only talking about life on earth; we can't use life to verify intelligent design, less likely the entire universe.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643247 - 09/10/05 09:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Science is in the same quandary. What made he planet, what made the cell? What made the molecule? What made the atom? What made the electron. What made the quark, what made the gluon.




That's why science doesn't make baseless claims about existence and call them theories, like intelligent design does. Science doesn't have an existence hypothesis even to my knowledge, because there's no evidence, observations or experience to know existence itself or its origins. All science can currently do is observe the products of existence, which is the known universe, life, general relativity and quantum mechanics.

Quote:

Does anyone yet have a name for one who believes in the intelligent design of evolution and the evolution of intelligent design, but not the Biblical God as the source of all creation?




A pseudoscientist?  :wink:

Just kidding, that would only apply if you tried to pass intelligent design off as science. Intelligent design in and of itself based on faith doesn't matter to me, as it's just like any other unsupported faith-based belief. But when people try to say it's a viable alternative to the actual scientific theories with evidence and logic on their side, and, Jesus forbid, actually teach it in science class, then I have a major problem.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643272 - 09/10/05 09:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Design Yes, Intelligent No
A Critique of Intelligent Design Theory and Neocreationism
The claims by Behe, Dembski, and other "intelligent design" creationists that science should be opened to supernatural explanations and that these should be allowed in academic as well as public school curricula are unfounded and based on a misunderstanding of both design in nature and of what the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution is all about.
Massimo Pigliucci



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A new brand of creationism has appeared on the scene in the last few years. The so-called neocreationists largely do not believe in a young Earth or in a too literal interpretation of the Bible. While still mostly propelled by a religious agenda and financed by mainly Christian sources such as the Templeton Foundation and the Discovery Institute, the intellectual challenge posed by neocreationism is sophisticated enough to require detailed consideration (see Edis 2001; Roche 2001).
Among the chief exponents of Intelligent Design (ID) theory, as this new brand of creationism is called, is William Dembski, a mathematical philosopher and author of The Design Inference (1998a). In that book he attempts to show that there must be an intelligent designer behind natural phenomena such as evolution and the very origin of the universe (see Pigliucci 2000 for a detailed critique). Dembki's (1998b) argument is that modern science ever since Francis Bacon has illicitly dropped two of Aristotle's famous four types of causes from consideration altogether, thereby unnecessarily restricting its own explanatory power. Science is thus incomplete, and intelligent design theory will rectify this sorry state of affairs, if only close-minded evolutionists would allow Dembski and company to do the job.

Found this online and thought it to be interesting and on topic.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643276 - 09/10/05 09:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why can't the process itself be the Intelligent Designer?

It could be, but He is not in evidence.

Just because you don't know what, if anything, set the universe into motion does not mean that is has to have been a designer. It could also have been nothing at all.

In the absence of evidence, it is better to withhold drawing a conclusion than it is to make up a magical one. That kind of reasoning is what held man back and kept the inquisition going for so long. It also happens to be what fuels religious terrorism.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4643314 - 09/10/05 09:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

okay, let me just cut in while I'm searching for the Wikipedia link to Intelligent Design, and let me say:

STOP DEBATING!!!!

THIS THREAD WAS MEANT TO PROPOSE A WAY TO TEST IDT, NOT PHILOSOPHISE ABOUT IT!

Geez, I go away from my comp for a few hours and come back to chaos...


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643328 - 09/10/05 09:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps there is a way.

Intelligent design is the hypothesis, so we need to devise an experiment to test either the intelligence or the design. The design we cannot really test, since the design itself doesn't prove intelligence, so of course we must target the first word.

My experiment will include burning a 10-question IQ test into the Sahara desert and, underneath it, putting a big, "FUCK YOU INTELLIGENCE!" to draw his attention. He will then use his intelligence to take the IQ test, and if he gets at least a passing grade, we will conclude that Intelligent Design is true.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643329 - 09/10/05 09:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory?"

Substitute the word 'God' for the words 'Intelligent Design' above, and you will have a more concise question. The answer will then become self-evident.


--------------------
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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643335 - 09/10/05 09:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If they teach the Bible creation story under the name of ID then, why not just call a spade a spade.

I see what you are saying about pseudo science related to using a "scientific sounding term" to front for creationism.

What I am asking about is, what is someone, who not only observes how intelligent a design of evolution is and experiences relativity with intelligence who doesn't believe in a Biblical God called?

It's near impossible to call something like a chrysalis unintelligent in design. if you recognize the intelligence of the design, why are you a creationists or pseudo scientist?

It's near impossible to say it just is a product of evolution without sounding like a church goer who says "God just is".

Anyway, Dromni didn't post this to discuss the ID taught in schools debate.

He asked if anyone can prove intelligent design without really defining what HE meant by it. Back to him and is question, are our bodies not designs? Are we not intelligent and can we not create designs? I think he is and has his proof, unless he means something else.

If he wanted to know if anyone can prove the existance of the Biblical God, then he is just as guiulty of fronting with a phrase like Intelligent Design.

Again I ask, why can't I think a tree is an intelligent design of evolution and that evolution itself is an intelligent design and not beleive in the Biblical God at the same time? Why can't I say, I think the intelligent designer is found in the intelligence of the designs of evolution itself?

What is incorrect or unscientific about that statement?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643341 - 09/10/05 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's not necessarily incorrect, anymore than all of religion is incorrect, but it is unscientific because Intelligent Design cannot be tested by science, and is therefore unscientific, or at least in a different category than science.

Science does not include Intelligent Design/ God/ the Tao/ gods because they cannot be tested by science, simple as that. If you want to take the leap of faith to actually believe an Intelligent Designer created evolution, I have no problem with it, but it is not science because it cannot be tested, experimented on or invalidated.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643342 - 09/10/05 09:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

this is what I mean by "Intelligent Design"

I firmly believe that divinity underlies all natural laws and phenomena, SCIENCE = GOD.

From the Wiki article:

"Proponents of ID look for evidence of what they call signs of intelligence ? physical properties of an object that imply "design". The most common cited signs being considered include irreducible complexity, information mechanisms, and specified complexity. Many design theorists believe that living systems show one or more of these, from which they infer that life is designed. This stands in opposition to mainstream explanations of systems, which explain the natural world exclusively through impersonal physical processes such as random mutations and natural selection. ID proponents claim that while evidence pointing to the nature of an "Intelligent Designer" may not be observable, its effects on nature can be detected."

So basically, living organisms are too complex to just have "happend by chance". Okay, that is a somewhat reasonable assumption, but it does not immediatly point to design by intelligence.

HOW would it be possible to prove that organisms were in fact DESIGNED? Should ID scientists look for organic phenomena that DEFY "random chance/natural laws"? Or should we look for an all pervasive, trans-dimensional consiousness or intelligence?

simply "experiancing" ID, as many of you have suggested, does not suffice as a way to scientifically prove it.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643365 - 09/10/05 09:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

this is what I mean by "Intelligent Design"

I firmly believe that divinity underlies all natural laws and phenomena, SCIENCE = GOD.

From the Wiki article:

"Proponents of ID look for evidence of what they call signs of intelligence ? physical properties of an object that imply "design". The most common cited signs being considered include irreducible complexity, information mechanisms, and specified complexity. Many design theorists believe that living systems show one or more of these, from which they infer that life is designed. This stands in opposition to mainstream explanations of systems, which explain the natural world exclusively through impersonal physical processes such as random mutations and natural selection. ID proponents claim that while evidence pointing to the nature of an "Intelligent Designer" may not be observable, its effects on nature can be detected."

So basically, living organisms are too complex to just have "happend by chance". Okay, that is a somewhat reasonable assumption, but it does not immediatly point to design by intelligence.

HOW would it be possible to prove that organisms were in fact DESIGNED? Should ID scientists look for organic phenomena that DEFY "random chance/natural laws"? Or should we look for an all pervasive, trans-dimensional consiousness or intelligence?

simply "experiancing" ID, as many of you have suggested, does not suffice as a way to scientifically prove it.




Just by looking at cells it would be almost impossible to find out if they were manufactured or not.
BUT, since we are so good at investigating past, we can always reconstruct past events.
If earth was once watter and stone, and a creator came to it and decided to make life, he must have left some kind of trace because if he existed he had to obey the laws of the universe. In other words, he was either matter or energy, or quantum-bubble-gum-matter or made out of spagetti as diploid likes to mention, whatever.
If he existed there must be a way to prove it.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643369 - 09/10/05 09:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ravus, I never said that an intelligent designer created evolution.

In all of my post I never said it.

I said that I think evolution is an intelligent design and that evolution comes up with intelligent designs. Do you see the difference? I can observe the intelligence of and in evolution withot belief in a intelligent designer apart from evolution or what has evolved into being observable.

I make that comment as an observer only.

Again, why is what I just said, incorrect or unscientific?
You may say because there is no measure for testing intelligence. We have IQ tests. Can something non intelligent create a living and breathing bird? If evolution created it then evolution is the intelligent designer, is it not?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643375 - 09/10/05 09:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In biology class we were taught about abiogenesis ("the creation of life without life"). My teacher told us about an experiment that was done were a scientist combined the substances that made up the earth around the time that life was thought to have begun. He subjected this brew to electricity, to simulate lighting, UV radiation, and other such things to replicate pre-life earth.

After a while proteins formed inside the brew. These proteins were observed to come together in long chains, and after they were too long, they would break apart again. These proteins display two characteristics of life. They grew, and then multiplied. Although this is a very simple chemical reaction, and they did not actually multiply in numbers, it provides interesting clues as to how life could have begun out of raw, non-biological materials....


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4643400 - 09/10/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

when people make a car in the factory, the process can be dysected in creating doors, engine etc.

You are assuming a few things:
1. intelligent design is supose to explain the creation of the universe. Well we ain't talking about that, we are talking about life on earth.
2. intelligent design relates to religion.

Now, take the words "intelligent design" and pull out information that comes out of them. The information is:
-it's a design, meaning life is result of WORK and not random events,
-it's intelligent, meaning the worker was intelligent and knew what he was doing

please do not go outside these two words, we are talking about these two words only




I never deviated from these two words. We can never verify any design created from intelligence, nor can we ever test it. Hence, it is a result of faith, and not science. I am only talking about life on earth; we can't use life to verify intelligent design, less likely the entire universe.




Let's put it this way.

Let's supose life WAS created by some intelligent creator, and todays it is difficult if not impossible to prove that. What should a scientist do to get to that truth?
Are you suggesting that we either accept evolution, or abandon the question alltogether?
In case the ID idea is true, are you saying that science should give up on it because it seems to hard to prove?

I mean science is about finding answers, if there was an intelligent creator it is the job of science to find him, describe him, explain how he did it, and how was he created and what makes him tick.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643402 - 09/10/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HOW would it be possible to prove that organisms were in fact DESIGNED? Should ID scientists look for organic phenomena that DEFY "random chance/natural laws"?




Thats a start in an interesting direction, but has nothing to do with proving an intelligent designer.

I thought science has found such anamolies and just leaves them as inconclusive? if not, they have written them off to the unpredictability or instability of the quantum field.

I think it is impossible to find it apart from intelligent design itself. I'm not even looking for it in anything but things themselves. Sorry I can't help you here.

Thanks for the discussions your thread privided me with though :cool:


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643407 - 09/10/05 09:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

but IDT refutes evolution because it says things happen by random chance according to natural laws. Whereas IDT suggests that life has come about because of SUPERNATURAL laws.

What you are saying Jiggy, is a perfectly reasonable idea. But it is not the ID that we are talking about here. I see nothing wrong with the idea of god working through evolution as a philosophical idea.

But proponents of IDT say evolution is NOT how things happen at all, so the official position is that these two theories are irreconcilable unless one of them is changed.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643424 - 09/10/05 09:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
In biology class we were taught about abiogenesis ("the creation of life without life"). My teacher told us about an experiment that was done were a scientist combined the substances that made up the earth around the time that life was thought to have begun. He subjected this brew to electricity, to simulate lighting, UV radiation, and other such things to replicate pre-life earth.

After a while proteins formed inside the brew. These proteins were observed to come together in long chains, and after they were too long, they would break apart again. These proteins display two characteristics of life. They grew, and then multiplied. Although this is a very simple chemical reaction, and they did not actually multiply in numbers, it provides interesting clues as to how life could have begun out of raw, non-biological materials....




yea we all know about that experiment, but what was created was complex organic molecules, it is miles away from what we could consider as life.
DNA is not just a very big organic molecule, it is a miracle of nature, EACH of the pairs MEANS SOMETHING, it's like a giant biological book, a blueprint. It is a perfect system that even humans that defeat probability and chance everyday with their genious inventions could not thought of.
A random protein chain really carries no information, and is just a molecule.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643430 - 09/10/05 09:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

so unless someone can come up with a way to test IDT, then we will just have to stick to old fashion, testable evolution and natural selection...


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643436 - 09/10/05 09:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What makes the testable discovery of a Super natural law evidence of a Creator God?

It just gives evidence to the existance of super natural laws and yet, more intelligent designs to observe, experience and relate ourselves too.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643460 - 09/10/05 09:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
but IDT refutes evolution because it says things happen by random chance according to natural laws. Whereas IDT suggests that life has come about because of SUPERNATURAL laws.

What you are saying Jiggy, is a perfectly reasonable idea. But it is not the ID that we are talking about here. I see nothing wrong with the idea of god working through evolution as a philosophical idea.

But proponents of IDT say evolution is NOT how things happen at all, so the official position is that these two theories are irreconcilable unless one of them is changed.




No, you are twisting this concept into something else.

Universe has laws, the process of creation of life on earth could take place ONLY by FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.
Supernatural does and can not exist, because if it does exist it becomes natural because everything in existence is an expression of some laws and is natural.

What is supernatural about intelligent design?
Intelligence is not supernatural. Humans are intelligent, a perfect example.
Design is supernatural? Nope, again humans are a perfect example, design is natural, we design things.

both concepts are natural and proven possible: intelligence and design

this computer that I'm typing on is a result of intelligent design, and there is nothing supernatural about it.
It was creaton not by defying natural laws, but by taking advantage of them.

Same way if IDT is to be considered as a serious scientific idea, we MUST assume that the process of ID was a natural process similar to our manufacture of machines, computers, genetic engineering etc.
In other words, ID must have been a very real and natural process made through use of natural laws by an intelligent creator.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643465 - 09/10/05 09:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes it is just a molecule, but it was able to come into being within one person's lifetime. Probably less than a year! So is it really so absurd to think that given billions and billions of years protiens might be given enough time and chance to form into a molecule as complex as DNA?

Remember, life wasn't just an isolated chemical reaction. Life itself changed the face of the earth by giving us an atmosphere of oxygen. This is what allowed life as we know it today. It's a self propelling process which creates it's own stable environment.

Order is known to naturally come out of chaos. Perhaps life is just another form of this.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643474 - 09/10/05 09:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
so unless someone can come up with a way to test IDT, then we will just have to stick to old fashion, testable evolution and natural selection...




but as I said, what if it is true? Would sticking with theory of spontaneous life benefit our knowledge?

In theory of evolution we can test that life changes, and evolves, that much is clear. But there is part of the theory of evolution that is untestable, and that part is the moment when first life came into existence. That part of the theory is as untestable as IDT right now


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643496 - 09/10/05 10:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
yes it is just a molecule, but it was able to come into being within one person's lifetime. Probably less than a year! So is it really so absurd to think that given billions and billions of years protiens might be given enough time and chance to form into a molecule as complex as DNA?

Remember, life wasn't just an isolated chemical reaction. Life itself changed the face of the earth by giving us an atmosphere of oxygen. This is what allowed life as we know it today. It's a self propelling process which creates it's own stable environment.

Order is known to naturally come out of chaos. Perhaps life is just another form of this.




But DNA molecule is not just complex.
Every piece of it has a purpuse.
It is clear that millions of years of change can produce complex structures, but it has not been proven that those years can make complex structures that do what DNA does: grow into a giant elephant or a thinking human. That is far beyond random complexity, it is organization, it's a machine


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643502 - 09/10/05 10:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thinking more on it, some people think of God as a Force that brings things into being or the source of this force.

Even if science discovers it, (fat chance) they will do what they always do and explain how it works, not why it works. They still have to get to where the source of the force came from and in the mean time will still sound no better then a religionists who says, "It just is."

Science still to my knowledge doesn't understand the force of gravity yet.

Neither science nor religion knows the source of the force that brings things into being. Religion just says, "oh, it's God le der and science says, "I don't know le der". And they fight with each other going "le der". Science says , "Prove God!" religion says, "Prove God not!" And neither can prove Jack. Neither stops to consider that jack is living proof of Jack.......le der. :wink:  :crazy2:


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643507 - 09/10/05 10:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"No, you are twisting this concept into something else.

Universe has laws, the process of creation of life on earth could take place ONLY by FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.
Supernatural does and can not exist, because if it does exist it becomes natural because everything in existence is an expression of some laws and is natural."

Your point is quite right, any law must be natural ipso facto. But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then .... i don't really know what i'm trying to say...


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643541 - 09/10/05 10:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"But DNA molecule is not just complex.
Every piece of it has a purpuse.
It is clear that millions of years of change can produce complex structures, but it has not been proven that those years can make complex structures that do what DNA does: grow into a giant elephant or a thinking human. That is far beyond random complexity, it is organization, it's a machine"

It's not that every peice has a purpose. There is not actual "information" inside. It's just a pattern. Each part of the pattern is a cause, which has an effect. If the effect produced results in the replication of that pattern, then that peice of the pattern is kept in. If the effect does not result in the replication of the pattern, then that peice of the pattern "dies out".

Life is self propelling. Self replicating patterns. It is that way because it works. There is no reason to not to believe that such a self replicating, constantly changing pattern could result in an elephant or thinking human.

The source of conscious experiance, now that is a completely different argument...


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643546 - 09/10/05 10:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

when I think of ID, I don't jump to concepts like universal spirits and such.
I start simple, I start from humans. Humans make things. The version of ID that is closest to our reality as we know it is the kind of manufacture humans do. Humans create robots, robots might one day be a new lifeform. Same way maybe some other lifeform, maybe non-organic created earth-life as it's scientific invention.

I'm sure one day humans will do such things: find dry planets, manufacture a whole new set of DNA molecules and create ecosystems, who knows why, maybe just for fun, maybe as an amusement part, maybe out of enlightenement of spreading life.

Even if we are a product of evolution, one day WE will be intelligent designers of other worlds because unless we dissapear from the face of the earth, science WILL give us such powers, it has no limits other than the limits universe imposes.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643564 - 09/10/05 10:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"But DNA molecule is not just complex.
Every piece of it has a purpuse.
It is clear that millions of years of change can produce complex structures, but it has not been proven that those years can make complex structures that do what DNA does: grow into a giant elephant or a thinking human. That is far beyond random complexity, it is organization, it's a machine"

It's not that every peice has a purpose. There is not actual "information" inside. It's just a pattern. Each part of the pattern is a cause, which has an effect. If the effect produced results in the replication of that pattern, then that peice of the pattern is kept in. If the effect does not result in the replication of the pattern, then that peice of the pattern "dies out".

Life is self propelling. Self replicating patterns. It is that way because it works. There is no reason to not to believe that such a self replicating, constantly changing pattern could result in an elephant or thinking human.

The source of conscious experiance, now that is a completely different argument...




I know what you are saying but, consider that if some of this patterns were changed the life would not grow.
With life there is no reduction in complexity. If DNA was any different than what it is, it would have been just another molecule and would not grow into anything. And I'm not talking about defective lifeforms, I'm saying it would be just acid, nothing more.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643574 - 09/10/05 10:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"No, you are twisting this concept into something else.

Universe has laws, the process of creation of life on earth could take place ONLY by FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.
Supernatural does and can not exist, because if it does exist it becomes natural because everything in existence is an expression of some laws and is natural."

Your point is quite right, any law must be natural ipso facto. But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then .... i don't really know what i'm trying to say...




Again you are jumping to conclusions. That intelligence could have been as natural as human brain is. Maybe the act of creation was a scientific experiment by a race of beings that are as natural as we are.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643577 - 09/10/05 10:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Even if we are a product of evolution, one day WE will be intelligent designers of other worlds because unless we dissapear from the face of the earth, science WILL give us such powers, it has no limits other than the limits universe imposes."

again, we are patterns that create patterns. Perhaps intelligence/consciousness IS built into the very nature of reality. But even so, it's just patterns creating new patterns. And if we do become intelligent designers, then the designer must have had a designer who must have had a designer, etc. Even with a designer in the picture there are still questions of origin.

and besides all this, the theory of a designer does NOT make evolution invalid! Evolution may simply a study of the designers methods, and does not have to cut it out of the picture. But IDT proponents are trying to cut the methods out of the picture.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643597 - 09/10/05 10:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"Even if we are a product of evolution, one day WE will be intelligent designers of other worlds because unless we dissapear from the face of the earth, science WILL give us such powers, it has no limits other than the limits universe imposes."

again, we are patterns that create patterns. Perhaps intelligence/consciousness IS built into the very nature of reality. But even so, it's just patterns creating new patterns. And if we do become intelligent designers, then the designer must have had a designer who must have had a designer, etc. Even with a designer in the picture there are still questions of origin.

and besides all this, the theory of a designer does NOT make evolution invalid! Evolution may simply a study of the designers methods, and does not have to cut it out of the picture. But IDT proponents are trying to cut the methods out of the picture.




our job in this discussion is to test every possible version of what "intelligent design" might mean. All of these proponents have their own versions, some are simply defending their religion etc. Don't mind them, concentrate on everything that "intelligent design" might mean.

And yea, it really doesn't solve where first life begins. If life created our life, then who created that life?
But still the question here is not how life in universe begins, it's simply how life on our planet begins.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643603 - 09/10/05 10:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then ....




I highly doubt IDT proponents think aliens designed life.

I, on the other hand, think that the start of life on earth may have come from a comet or meteorite with organic compounds or spores of life forms a galaxy away. Panspermia. A possibility?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643608 - 09/10/05 10:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"our job in this discussion is to test every possible version of what "intelligent design" might mean. All of these proponents have their own versions, some are simply defending their religion etc. Don't mind them, concentrate on everything that "intelligent design" might mean.

And yea, it really doesn't solve where first life begins. If life created our life, then who created that life?
But still the question here is not how life in universe begins, it's simply how life on our planet begins."


okay, I can accept that.

But the fact stands none-the-less that these proponents are trying to make their own versions of ID as standard teachings in science classes when there is no real PROOF or way to TEST that their theory eplains life better than evolutionary theory does. They simply state that evolution is not complete and therefore their incomplete theory must also be taught along side it.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643613 - 09/10/05 10:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Panspermia is a possibility, but without evidence it is simply adding unnecessarily to the theory when we could possibly explain it panspermia. Hence, Occam's razor would cut it out until there was evidence either for panspermia, or against the possibility of life originating here on earth.

I believe life originated on earth personally, and even if panspermia was true it wouldn't solve how life began. There's an interesting article about the origins of life on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_life


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643618 - 09/10/05 10:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then ....




I highly doubt IDT proponents think aliens designed life.

I, on the other hand, think that the start of life on earth may have come from a comet or meteorite with organic compounds or spores of life forms a galaxy away. Panspermia. A possibility?




but that's the problem, if IDT proponents aren't open to the possibility of extraterrestrial beings being the designers, then it's not really a theory for intelligent design, it's just an argument for god...


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643622 - 09/10/05 10:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then ....




I highly doubt IDT proponents think aliens designed life.

I, on the other hand, think that the start of life on earth may have come from a comet or meteorite with organic compounds or spores of life forms a galaxy away. Panspermia. A possibility?




It doesn't matter what current proponents of ID think because ID is a very open concept, the only thing that it is specific about is the act of design (meaning work, living force making life) and intelligence (meaning planing and intent) , all rest is left to your imagination.

This idea is currently used by religious people to defend their beliefs, but they don't build this idea, they simply use it, or misuse it.

The idea springs from ourselves, not Bible: we apply work and we design, our creations are impossible to exist by random, and we ourselfs show even higher levels of organisation and complexity than our own creations, so it is possible we too were someones creations.
That is the logic behind ID


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643628 - 09/10/05 10:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"our job in this discussion is to test every possible version of what "intelligent design" might mean. All of these proponents have their own versions, some are simply defending their religion etc. Don't mind them, concentrate on everything that "intelligent design" might mean.

And yea, it really doesn't solve where first life begins. If life created our life, then who created that life?
But still the question here is not how life in universe begins, it's simply how life on our planet begins."


okay, I can accept that.

But the fact stands none-the-less that these proponents are trying to make their own versions of ID as standard teachings in science classes when there is no real PROOF or way to TEST that their theory eplains life better than evolutionary theory does. They simply state that evolution is not complete and therefore their incomplete theory must also be taught along side it.




By all means the idea of ID should not be presented as proof of religious god in schools, it should simply be mentioned as an open concept and left to the listeners to use their imagination and logic to make the idea of ID be possible in nature.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643650 - 09/10/05 10:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i agree, it's an open idea. It does have a lot of potential, but it is NOT science. It's simply a philosophy. And until it crosses the line between philosophical suggestion and scientifically plausable theory, it should stay out of the class room and, stay in the minds of scientists/thinkers


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643670 - 09/10/05 10:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Even thought it's philosophy, I think it has to be mentioned because otherwise students will come out of school thinking that there are no other possibilities to current undestanding of how life began.
There is nothing to be said about ID because all that is to say is contained in its title "intelligent design". But I think it would make a nice addition at the end of evolution chapter, sort of like:
"allthough it is likely that life began as was described here, there is a possibility of an intelligent design, but there is no known evidence of that"

that is enough to keep peoples minds open


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643678 - 09/10/05 10:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

but that's the problem, if IDT proponents aren't open to the possibility of extraterrestrial beings being the designers, then it's not really a theory for intelligent design, it's just an argument for god...




I agree, it's a Christian agenda for equal time in biology class for theology class. There are ALREADY public school classrooms where evolution is being discredited in favor of creationism or ID or whatever you want to call it. There was just this kind of case with a science teacher where my parents live in the heartland of the religious right. While the teacher was reprimanded, he continued to teach creationism and kept his job.

The agenda is to make it legal to teach creationism as an equally creditable "theory" to evolution in EVERY science class.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643716 - 09/10/05 11:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My highschool biology teacher taught us about intelligent design. He did a very good job of presenting it. We discussed the idea, and he made the point that evolution and creationism are not at odds unless you take a literal interpretation of the bible. Othewise they are practically in sync.

I think that it should be breifly mentioned, sure, but for it to "be taught equally along side evolution" is ridiculous!


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4644976 - 09/11/05 07:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physic existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence.
Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory. So where could be spirituality re-added to this by its best ?
Darwin says, it doesn't matter what you want or intend (even animals), if the nature does not support your building-plan, you cease to exist and only random gene-mutations of your offspring could stay alive, if they will randomly fit the existing (perhaps changed) environment.
So, per hasps we should look upon those 'mutations' to get a hint, if they are really random, at all ?
We have to try to bring those theories into scientific provable hypotheses. Thats for evolution and ID and we will see, that they will coexist within theirs best. So to make life and death again not only a scientific matter ? :laugh:


--------------------
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4645060 - 09/11/05 09:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physic existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence.
Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory. So where could be spirituality re-added to this by its best ?
Darwin says, it doesn't matter what you want or intend (even animals), if the nature does not support your building-plan, you cease to exist and only random gene-mutations of your offspring could stay alive, if they will randomly fit the existing (perhaps changed) environment.
So, per hasps we should look upon those 'mutations' to get a hint, if they are really random, at all ?
We have to try to bring those theories into scientific provable hypotheses. Thats for evolution and ID and we will see, that they will coexist within theirs best. So to make life and death again not only a scientific matter ? :laugh:




Shouldn't we start with something that we know exists and is right before us? biological life is our reality, it is proven to exist. so why not start from there?


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4645078 - 09/11/05 09:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Even thought it's philosophy, I think it has to be mentioned

I don't agree. Religious viewpoints are irrelevant to a biology class. If we were to mention that ID is a non-scientific idea about the origins of life, then we would also have to mention *every* other creation myth on Earth or we would be presenting biased information.

The teaching of ID (and other creation myths) to kids in school should occur in a world religions class or something along those lines. It should not even be mentioned in biology class unless you're prepared to mention the zillion other non-scientific creation mths, just to be fair.

Even then, it would mean that we'd have a chapter in the biology book devoted to non-scientific viewpoints. This detracts from the purpose of the class: to teach science.


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4645227 - 09/11/05 10:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Even thought it's philosophy, I think it has to be mentioned

I don't agree. Religious viewpoints are irrelevant to a biology class. If we were to mention that ID is a non-scientific idea about the origins of life, then we would also have to mention *every* other creation myth on Earth or we would be presenting biased information.

The teaching of ID (and other creation myths) to kids in school should occur in a world religions class or something along those lines. It should not even be mentioned in biology class unless you're prepared to mention the zillion other non-scientific creation mths, just to be fair.

Even then, it would mean that we'd have a chapter in the biology book devoted to non-scientific viewpoints. This detracts from the purpose of the class: to teach science.




you haven't been following this discussion have you?


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Edited by OldWoodSpecter (09/11/05 10:55 AM)


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4646563 - 09/11/05 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Shouldn't we start with something that we know exists and is right before us? biological life is our reality, it is proven to exist. so why not start from there?
Becasue, just in general, like Plato assumed too, there could be something more behind all this physical obvious screenplay, we percieve with our 'physical' senses.
We see, there is a spiritual realm, to which our mind has brought access for us, and now, we riddle of its relation to physical reality.
No proof is there which of the both existed first, till now.
How could it ? We even are in trouble to proove spiritual realm itself, even if we percieve it day to day...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4647705 - 09/11/05 10:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ok i got as far as page five got bored and decided to throw my 2 cents in. I beleive the fundamental flaw in ID is this, we are looking at organisms that have spent millions of years adapting to their environment and as a consequence they are extremely well adapted to their environment. we then come in, see these adaptions and think, "wow, look how well adapted it is! because I design things to function efficiently, something must have designed this creature to be so efficient!" we are assigning a design to a natural process. no design is required for natural selection to work. to survive, a species changes with it's environment. if you wish to call the will to survive "intelligence", then you have your "intelligent designer".


Edited by psychomime (09/11/05 10:13 PM)


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: psychomime]
    #4647821 - 09/11/05 10:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents don't get persuaded by simple logic and reason alone. Evolution would make us simply a bunch of animals! Imagine that; God's chosen people must feel threatened indeed to start creating euphemistic fronts for Creationism.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4648011 - 09/11/05 11:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory."

This is not true AT ALL! Darwin wrote many things about God and His beauty reflected in nature. It was said that Isaac Newton wrote more about God than he did about physics. These giants wanted God included in a scientific vision, and it was only the men who stood on their shoulders who removed the divinity from natural phenomena.

"We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physical existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence."

That's basically a "the chicken came first" type of statement... which is fine, but it doesn't helpt the discussion.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4650168 - 09/12/05 02:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory."

This is not true AT ALL! Darwin wrote many things about God and His beauty reflected in nature. It was said that Isaac Newton wrote more about God than he did about physics. These giants wanted God included in a scientific vision, and it was only the men who stood on their shoulders who removed the divinity from natural phenomena.



Perhaps you are right and I should have better said 'was forced to get rid' of spiritual realm, as in this/his time the scientific developement was growing fast.

Quote:

"We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physical existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence."

That's basically a "the chicken came first" type of statement... which is fine, but it doesn't helpt the discussion.



I think it would help, if we could know more about the interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm.
An unproven question herefor: Can spiritual realm stand for itself ? Is there meaning without life ?
By knowing this, it could be easier to build out theories and hypothesises, which are needed for testing.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4650382 - 09/12/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think it would help, if we could know more about the interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm.

We know no more about these interconnections today than a million years ago because fantasy is inordinately hard to study.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Swami]
    #4650394 - 09/12/05 03:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I think it would help, if we could know more about the interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm.

We know no more about these interconnections today than a million years ago because fantasy is inordinately hard to study.




That was extreamly unscientific of you, there is no evidence that traditional spiritual concepts are fantasy


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650436 - 09/12/05 03:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How many years have you been here and still have not understood the fallacy of attempting to prove a negative?


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/12/05 03:46 PM)


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650443 - 09/12/05 03:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
there is no evidence that traditional spiritual concepts are fantasy



Where is the evidence that they are reality?


--------------------
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Swami]
    #4650788 - 09/12/05 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
How many years have you been here and still have not understood the fallacy of attempting to prove a negative?




me? I'm not the one saying what doesn't exist.
Last time I checked it was you and Diploid. A masquote of that approach is Diploid's conviction that there is no spagetti monster on the other side of galaxy.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650796 - 09/12/05 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
there is no evidence that traditional spiritual concepts are fantasy



Where is the evidence that they are reality?




No evidence. But you can't prove non-existence, so you can't say things like: this doesn't exist, it's fantasy


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4651337 - 09/12/05 07:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

But the logical epistemological default for everything is neutrality; that is withholding belief (non-belief) until evidence of a thing's existence is found.

Without this basic principle of epistemology, we would have to grant that every possible thing (and every impossible thing too) exists, then begin the discussion. This is as silly as saying that there are no Spaghetti Monsters on Pluto. There might be, but it's also silly to assume there are.

Better to stand neutral in non-belief of the 'interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm'. Non-belief is different than disbelief, and is the best way to view something unsupported by evidence. So far, there is zero evidence of any 'spiritual realm' existing.


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4652132 - 09/12/05 10:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But the logical epistemological default for everything is neutrality; that is withholding belief (non-belief) until evidence of a thing's existence is found.

Without this basic principle of epistemology, we would have to grant that every possible thing (and every impossible thing too) exists, then begin the discussion. This is as silly as saying that there are no Spaghetti Monsters on Pluto. There might be, but it's also silly to assume there are.

Better to stand neutral in non-belief of the 'interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm'. Non-belief is different than disbelief, and is the best way to view something unsupported by evidence. So far, there is zero evidence of any 'spiritual realm' existing.




Indeed. But saying spiritual realm is fantasy is actually sliping away from the position of non-belief into the position of disbelief without any evidence.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4652515 - 09/12/05 11:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, strictly speaking, saying that 'spiritual realms' are fantasy is epistemologically illogical, but there's formal logic and then there's ordinary language logic.

In the latter, saying that the Plutonian Spaghetti Monsters are fantasy is reasonable; the same goes for 'spiritual realms' especially since there isn't even a definitive definition for the term.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4654190 - 09/13/05 11:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Where does all this mention about a Spaghetti Monster come from? I recently read an opinion piece in my local newspaper submitted by a reader about his belief in a Giant Spaghetti Monster who created the world and directs it with his "invisible, noodley appendage". The author argued that his version of creation should be taught equally along side evolution and IDT.

I know that the same argument has been brought up here at the shroomery, but I was wondering if it was a shroomerite that wrote that opinion/letter thingy...


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4654345 - 09/13/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wow, cool, didn't diploid write this article here in the shroomery ?

And for spiritual realm does not exist, huh ? We are discussing contradicting possibilities of physical reality. Isn't that proof alone, that spiritual realm exists ? We have imagination, which can be far away from reality or even mixed with it, blended with our own associations, perhaps even directed into the future.
I strongly name that a form of spiritual realm and that is, what swami called fantasy. He is right to a part, but not all is fantasy.
Time to enforce our efforts of scientific exploration more on that subject, me thinks.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (09/13/05 12:23 PM)


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4655372 - 09/13/05 04:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"We are discussing contradicting possibilities of physical reality. Isn't that proof alone, that spiritual realm exists?"

no, it does not prove anything about a spiritual realm, all it says is that there is something about reality which we do not understand.

radio signals may seem like magic to a person without knowledge of electromagnetic radiation, but we know that these invisible forces are a real part of our physical reality. Any "spiritual realm" that we discover will most likely be another invisible part of our everyday reality and not something far off and distant.

even our imaginations are tied into this physical reality even if it is in some way that we don't understand. i'm sure most of us here are familiar with psychedelic chemicals (a physical object) that dramatically affects our imaginations.

Spirituality and Phyisicality are one and the same. They are only separated in our minds. There is plenty of good reason to believe that they affect each other intimately, and that both realms are the possible subjects of scientific study.


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4660421 - 09/14/05 04:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

no, it does not prove anything about a spiritual realm, all it says is that there is something about reality which we do not understand.

But this realm of uncertainity offers a strong portal to that, what we commonly call spirituality. I hope, there will be found some scientific methods, to look behind that curtain.
But will we ever be able to answer every questions within our physical incarnations, with physical means ? I think there is some abstract world, called meaning or spiritual or something, that does not directly exist physically, but somehow isn't less real or less 'meaningfull' for existence.
We only can percieve it with our minds yet...but in extreme, our physical body can be influenced (harmed/healed) by this... :laugh:


edit:aeh, how to test ? uh uh...much more thinking has to be done :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (09/14/05 04:32 PM)


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10351550 - 05/17/09 04:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There is no way you can test for a supernatural entity.  ID is not science and it is not a theory in any sense.  It is a hypothesis, and not even a scientific one.  Scientific hypotheses need to be falsifiable.  Answering the problem of biotic complexity with "God did it," doesn't answer anything.  You're only postulating something infinitely more complex than the original issue and, in doing so, create a much bigger problem than we originally had. 

ID is just creationism in yet another cheap suit.


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