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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643465 - 09/10/05 09:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes it is just a molecule, but it was able to come into being within one person's lifetime. Probably less than a year! So is it really so absurd to think that given billions and billions of years protiens might be given enough time and chance to form into a molecule as complex as DNA?

Remember, life wasn't just an isolated chemical reaction. Life itself changed the face of the earth by giving us an atmosphere of oxygen. This is what allowed life as we know it today. It's a self propelling process which creates it's own stable environment.

Order is known to naturally come out of chaos. Perhaps life is just another form of this.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643474 - 09/10/05 09:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
so unless someone can come up with a way to test IDT, then we will just have to stick to old fashion, testable evolution and natural selection...




but as I said, what if it is true? Would sticking with theory of spontaneous life benefit our knowledge?

In theory of evolution we can test that life changes, and evolves, that much is clear. But there is part of the theory of evolution that is untestable, and that part is the moment when first life came into existence. That part of the theory is as untestable as IDT right now


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643496 - 09/10/05 10:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
yes it is just a molecule, but it was able to come into being within one person's lifetime. Probably less than a year! So is it really so absurd to think that given billions and billions of years protiens might be given enough time and chance to form into a molecule as complex as DNA?

Remember, life wasn't just an isolated chemical reaction. Life itself changed the face of the earth by giving us an atmosphere of oxygen. This is what allowed life as we know it today. It's a self propelling process which creates it's own stable environment.

Order is known to naturally come out of chaos. Perhaps life is just another form of this.




But DNA molecule is not just complex.
Every piece of it has a purpuse.
It is clear that millions of years of change can produce complex structures, but it has not been proven that those years can make complex structures that do what DNA does: grow into a giant elephant or a thinking human. That is far beyond random complexity, it is organization, it's a machine


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643502 - 09/10/05 10:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thinking more on it, some people think of God as a Force that brings things into being or the source of this force.

Even if science discovers it, (fat chance) they will do what they always do and explain how it works, not why it works. They still have to get to where the source of the force came from and in the mean time will still sound no better then a religionists who says, "It just is."

Science still to my knowledge doesn't understand the force of gravity yet.

Neither science nor religion knows the source of the force that brings things into being. Religion just says, "oh, it's God le der and science says, "I don't know le der". And they fight with each other going "le der". Science says , "Prove God!" religion says, "Prove God not!" And neither can prove Jack. Neither stops to consider that jack is living proof of Jack.......le der. :wink:  :crazy2:


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643507 - 09/10/05 10:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"No, you are twisting this concept into something else.

Universe has laws, the process of creation of life on earth could take place ONLY by FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.
Supernatural does and can not exist, because if it does exist it becomes natural because everything in existence is an expression of some laws and is natural."

Your point is quite right, any law must be natural ipso facto. But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then .... i don't really know what i'm trying to say...


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643541 - 09/10/05 10:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"But DNA molecule is not just complex.
Every piece of it has a purpuse.
It is clear that millions of years of change can produce complex structures, but it has not been proven that those years can make complex structures that do what DNA does: grow into a giant elephant or a thinking human. That is far beyond random complexity, it is organization, it's a machine"

It's not that every peice has a purpose. There is not actual "information" inside. It's just a pattern. Each part of the pattern is a cause, which has an effect. If the effect produced results in the replication of that pattern, then that peice of the pattern is kept in. If the effect does not result in the replication of the pattern, then that peice of the pattern "dies out".

Life is self propelling. Self replicating patterns. It is that way because it works. There is no reason to not to believe that such a self replicating, constantly changing pattern could result in an elephant or thinking human.

The source of conscious experiance, now that is a completely different argument...


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4643546 - 09/10/05 10:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

when I think of ID, I don't jump to concepts like universal spirits and such.
I start simple, I start from humans. Humans make things. The version of ID that is closest to our reality as we know it is the kind of manufacture humans do. Humans create robots, robots might one day be a new lifeform. Same way maybe some other lifeform, maybe non-organic created earth-life as it's scientific invention.

I'm sure one day humans will do such things: find dry planets, manufacture a whole new set of DNA molecules and create ecosystems, who knows why, maybe just for fun, maybe as an amusement part, maybe out of enlightenement of spreading life.

Even if we are a product of evolution, one day WE will be intelligent designers of other worlds because unless we dissapear from the face of the earth, science WILL give us such powers, it has no limits other than the limits universe imposes.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643564 - 09/10/05 10:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"But DNA molecule is not just complex.
Every piece of it has a purpuse.
It is clear that millions of years of change can produce complex structures, but it has not been proven that those years can make complex structures that do what DNA does: grow into a giant elephant or a thinking human. That is far beyond random complexity, it is organization, it's a machine"

It's not that every peice has a purpose. There is not actual "information" inside. It's just a pattern. Each part of the pattern is a cause, which has an effect. If the effect produced results in the replication of that pattern, then that peice of the pattern is kept in. If the effect does not result in the replication of the pattern, then that peice of the pattern "dies out".

Life is self propelling. Self replicating patterns. It is that way because it works. There is no reason to not to believe that such a self replicating, constantly changing pattern could result in an elephant or thinking human.

The source of conscious experiance, now that is a completely different argument...




I know what you are saying but, consider that if some of this patterns were changed the life would not grow.
With life there is no reduction in complexity. If DNA was any different than what it is, it would have been just another molecule and would not grow into anything. And I'm not talking about defective lifeforms, I'm saying it would be just acid, nothing more.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643574 - 09/10/05 10:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"No, you are twisting this concept into something else.

Universe has laws, the process of creation of life on earth could take place ONLY by FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.
Supernatural does and can not exist, because if it does exist it becomes natural because everything in existence is an expression of some laws and is natural."

Your point is quite right, any law must be natural ipso facto. But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then .... i don't really know what i'm trying to say...




Again you are jumping to conclusions. That intelligence could have been as natural as human brain is. Maybe the act of creation was a scientific experiment by a race of beings that are as natural as we are.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643577 - 09/10/05 10:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Even if we are a product of evolution, one day WE will be intelligent designers of other worlds because unless we dissapear from the face of the earth, science WILL give us such powers, it has no limits other than the limits universe imposes."

again, we are patterns that create patterns. Perhaps intelligence/consciousness IS built into the very nature of reality. But even so, it's just patterns creating new patterns. And if we do become intelligent designers, then the designer must have had a designer who must have had a designer, etc. Even with a designer in the picture there are still questions of origin.

and besides all this, the theory of a designer does NOT make evolution invalid! Evolution may simply a study of the designers methods, and does not have to cut it out of the picture. But IDT proponents are trying to cut the methods out of the picture.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643597 - 09/10/05 10:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"Even if we are a product of evolution, one day WE will be intelligent designers of other worlds because unless we dissapear from the face of the earth, science WILL give us such powers, it has no limits other than the limits universe imposes."

again, we are patterns that create patterns. Perhaps intelligence/consciousness IS built into the very nature of reality. But even so, it's just patterns creating new patterns. And if we do become intelligent designers, then the designer must have had a designer who must have had a designer, etc. Even with a designer in the picture there are still questions of origin.

and besides all this, the theory of a designer does NOT make evolution invalid! Evolution may simply a study of the designers methods, and does not have to cut it out of the picture. But IDT proponents are trying to cut the methods out of the picture.




our job in this discussion is to test every possible version of what "intelligent design" might mean. All of these proponents have their own versions, some are simply defending their religion etc. Don't mind them, concentrate on everything that "intelligent design" might mean.

And yea, it really doesn't solve where first life begins. If life created our life, then who created that life?
But still the question here is not how life in universe begins, it's simply how life on our planet begins.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643603 - 09/10/05 10:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then ....




I highly doubt IDT proponents think aliens designed life.

I, on the other hand, think that the start of life on earth may have come from a comet or meteorite with organic compounds or spores of life forms a galaxy away. Panspermia. A possibility?


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643608 - 09/10/05 10:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"our job in this discussion is to test every possible version of what "intelligent design" might mean. All of these proponents have their own versions, some are simply defending their religion etc. Don't mind them, concentrate on everything that "intelligent design" might mean.

And yea, it really doesn't solve where first life begins. If life created our life, then who created that life?
But still the question here is not how life in universe begins, it's simply how life on our planet begins."


okay, I can accept that.

But the fact stands none-the-less that these proponents are trying to make their own versions of ID as standard teachings in science classes when there is no real PROOF or way to TEST that their theory eplains life better than evolutionary theory does. They simply state that evolution is not complete and therefore their incomplete theory must also be taught along side it.


Edited by dr0mni (09/10/05 10:34 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643613 - 09/10/05 10:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Panspermia is a possibility, but without evidence it is simply adding unnecessarily to the theory when we could possibly explain it panspermia. Hence, Occam's razor would cut it out until there was evidence either for panspermia, or against the possibility of life originating here on earth.

I believe life originated on earth personally, and even if panspermia was true it wouldn't solve how life began. There's an interesting article about the origins of life on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_life


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643618 - 09/10/05 10:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then ....




I highly doubt IDT proponents think aliens designed life.

I, on the other hand, think that the start of life on earth may have come from a comet or meteorite with organic compounds or spores of life forms a galaxy away. Panspermia. A possibility?




but that's the problem, if IDT proponents aren't open to the possibility of extraterrestrial beings being the designers, then it's not really a theory for intelligent design, it's just an argument for god...


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643622 - 09/10/05 10:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

But IDT proponents claim that life came about NOT by the random chance and interaction of natural laws. So if they didn't come about by natural laws, the only thing left is a supernatural intelligence that is NOT human. And unless they are open to the possiblities of aliens being the designers, then ....




I highly doubt IDT proponents think aliens designed life.

I, on the other hand, think that the start of life on earth may have come from a comet or meteorite with organic compounds or spores of life forms a galaxy away. Panspermia. A possibility?




It doesn't matter what current proponents of ID think because ID is a very open concept, the only thing that it is specific about is the act of design (meaning work, living force making life) and intelligence (meaning planing and intent) , all rest is left to your imagination.

This idea is currently used by religious people to defend their beliefs, but they don't build this idea, they simply use it, or misuse it.

The idea springs from ourselves, not Bible: we apply work and we design, our creations are impossible to exist by random, and we ourselfs show even higher levels of organisation and complexity than our own creations, so it is possible we too were someones creations.
That is the logic behind ID


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643628 - 09/10/05 10:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
"our job in this discussion is to test every possible version of what "intelligent design" might mean. All of these proponents have their own versions, some are simply defending their religion etc. Don't mind them, concentrate on everything that "intelligent design" might mean.

And yea, it really doesn't solve where first life begins. If life created our life, then who created that life?
But still the question here is not how life in universe begins, it's simply how life on our planet begins."


okay, I can accept that.

But the fact stands none-the-less that these proponents are trying to make their own versions of ID as standard teachings in science classes when there is no real PROOF or way to TEST that their theory eplains life better than evolutionary theory does. They simply state that evolution is not complete and therefore their incomplete theory must also be taught along side it.




By all means the idea of ID should not be presented as proof of religious god in schools, it should simply be mentioned as an open concept and left to the listeners to use their imagination and logic to make the idea of ID be possible in nature.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4643650 - 09/10/05 10:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i agree, it's an open idea. It does have a lot of potential, but it is NOT science. It's simply a philosophy. And until it crosses the line between philosophical suggestion and scientifically plausable theory, it should stay out of the class room and, stay in the minds of scientists/thinkers


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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643670 - 09/10/05 10:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Even thought it's philosophy, I think it has to be mentioned because otherwise students will come out of school thinking that there are no other possibilities to current undestanding of how life began.
There is nothing to be said about ID because all that is to say is contained in its title "intelligent design". But I think it would make a nice addition at the end of evolution chapter, sort of like:
"allthough it is likely that life began as was described here, there is a possibility of an intelligent design, but there is no known evidence of that"

that is enough to keep peoples minds open


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4643678 - 09/10/05 10:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

but that's the problem, if IDT proponents aren't open to the possibility of extraterrestrial beings being the designers, then it's not really a theory for intelligent design, it's just an argument for god...




I agree, it's a Christian agenda for equal time in biology class for theology class. There are ALREADY public school classrooms where evolution is being discredited in favor of creationism or ID or whatever you want to call it. There was just this kind of case with a science teacher where my parents live in the heartland of the religious right. While the teacher was reprimanded, he continued to teach creationism and kept his job.

The agenda is to make it legal to teach creationism as an equally creditable "theory" to evolution in EVERY science class.


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