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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4643716 -

My highschool biology teacher taught us about intelligent design. He did a very good job of presenting it. We discussed the idea, and he made the point that evolution and creationism are not at odds unless you take a literal interpretation of the bible. Othewise they are practically in sync.

I think that it should be breifly mentioned, sure, but for it to "be taught equally along side evolution" is ridiculous!


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http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4644976 -

We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physic existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence.
Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory. So where could be spirituality re-added to this by its best ?
Darwin says, it doesn't matter what you want or intend (even animals), if the nature does not support your building-plan, you cease to exist and only random gene-mutations of your offspring could stay alive, if they will randomly fit the existing (perhaps changed) environment.
So, per hasps we should look upon those 'mutations' to get a hint, if they are really random, at all ?
We have to try to bring those theories into scientific provable hypotheses. Thats for evolution and ID and we will see, that they will coexist within theirs best. So to make life and death again not only a scientific matter ? :laugh:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4645060 -

BlueCoyote said:
We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physic existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence.
Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory. So where could be spirituality re-added to this by its best ?
Darwin says, it doesn't matter what you want or intend (even animals), if the nature does not support your building-plan, you cease to exist and only random gene-mutations of your offspring could stay alive, if they will randomly fit the existing (perhaps changed) environment.
So, per hasps we should look upon those 'mutations' to get a hint, if they are really random, at all ?
We have to try to bring those theories into scientific provable hypotheses. Thats for evolution and ID and we will see, that they will coexist within theirs best. So to make life and death again not only a scientific matter ? :laugh:


Shouldn't we start with something that we know exists and is right before us? biological life is our reality, it is proven to exist. so why not start from there?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4645078 -

Even thought it's philosophy, I think it has to be mentioned

I don't agree. Religious viewpoints are irrelevant to a biology class. If we were to mention that ID is a non-scientific idea about the origins of life, then we would also have to mention *every* other creation myth on Earth or we would be presenting biased information.

The teaching of ID (and other creation myths) to kids in school should occur in a world religions class or something along those lines. It should not even be mentioned in biology class unless you're prepared to mention the zillion other non-scientific creation mths, just to be fair.

Even then, it would mean that we'd have a chapter in the biology book devoted to non-scientific viewpoints. This detracts from the purpose of the class: to teach science.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4645227 -

Diploid said:
Even thought it's philosophy, I think it has to be mentioned

I don't agree. Religious viewpoints are irrelevant to a biology class. If we were to mention that ID is a non-scientific idea about the origins of life, then we would also have to mention *every* other creation myth on Earth or we would be presenting biased information.

The teaching of ID (and other creation myths) to kids in school should occur in a world religions class or something along those lines. It should not even be mentioned in biology class unless you're prepared to mention the zillion other non-scientific creation mths, just to be fair.

Even then, it would mean that we'd have a chapter in the biology book devoted to non-scientific viewpoints. This detracts from the purpose of the class: to teach science.


you haven't been following this discussion have you?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (09/11/05 08:55 AM)

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4646563 -

Shouldn't we start with something that we know exists and is right before us? biological life is our reality, it is proven to exist. so why not start from there?
Becasue, just in general, like Plato assumed too, there could be something more behind all this physical obvious screenplay, we percieve with our 'physical' senses.
We see, there is a spiritual realm, to which our mind has brought access for us, and now, we riddle of its relation to physical reality.
No proof is there which of the both existed first, till now.
How could it ? We even are in trouble to proove spiritual realm itself, even if we percieve it day to day...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4647705 -

ok i got as far as page five got bored and decided to throw my 2 cents in. I beleive the fundamental flaw in ID is this, we are looking at organisms that have spent millions of years adapting to their environment and as a consequence they are extremely well adapted to their environment. we then come in, see these adaptions and think, "wow, look how well adapted it is! because I design things to function efficiently, something must have designed this creature to be so efficient!" we are assigning a design to a natural process. no design is required for natural selection to work. to survive, a species changes with it's environment. if you wish to call the will to survive "intelligence", then you have your "intelligent designer".


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Edited by psychomime (09/11/05 08:13 PM)

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: psychomime]
    #4647821 -

Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents don't get persuaded by simple logic and reason alone. Evolution would make us simply a bunch of animals! Imagine that; God's chosen people must feel threatened indeed to start creating euphemistic fronts for Creationism.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Ravus]
    #4648011 -

"Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory."

This is not true AT ALL! Darwin wrote many things about God and His beauty reflected in nature. It was said that Isaac Newton wrote more about God than he did about physics. These giants wanted God included in a scientific vision, and it was only the men who stood on their shoulders who removed the divinity from natural phenomena.

"We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physical existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence."

That's basically a "the chicken came first" type of statement... which is fine, but it doesn't helpt the discussion.


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4650168 -

dr0mni said:
"Darwin tried to intentionally get rid of the spiritual realm with his theory."

This is not true AT ALL! Darwin wrote many things about God and His beauty reflected in nature. It was said that Isaac Newton wrote more about God than he did about physics. These giants wanted God included in a scientific vision, and it was only the men who stood on their shoulders who removed the divinity from natural phenomena.


Perhaps you are right and I should have better said 'was forced to get rid' of spiritual realm, as in this/his time the scientific developement was growing fast.

Quote:
"We should consider the spiritual realm first, before we can assume that there could be brought something out of it to physical existence.
For me it's the same question about what was first, spiritual realm, or physical existence."

That's basically a "the chicken came first" type of statement... which is fine, but it doesn't helpt the discussion.


I think it would help, if we could know more about the interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm.
An unproven question herefor: Can spiritual realm stand for itself ? Is there meaning without life ?
By knowing this, it could be easier to build out theories and hypothesises, which are needed for testing.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4650382 -

I think it would help, if we could know more about the interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm.

We know no more about these interconnections today than a million years ago because fantasy is inordinately hard to study.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Swami]
    #4650394 -

Swami said:
I think it would help, if we could know more about the interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm.

We know no more about these interconnections today than a million years ago because fantasy is inordinately hard to study.


That was extreamly unscientific of you, there is no evidence that traditional spiritual concepts are fantasy


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650436 -

How many years have you been here and still have not understood the fallacy of attempting to prove a negative?


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/12/05 01:46 PM)

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650443 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
there is no evidence that traditional spiritual concepts are fantasy


Where is the evidence that they are reality?


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Swami]
    #4650788 -

Swami said:
How many years have you been here and still have not understood the fallacy of attempting to prove a negative?


me? I'm not the one saying what doesn't exist.
Last time I checked it was you and Diploid. A masquote of that approach is Diploid's conviction that there is no spagetti monster on the other side of galaxy.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650796 -

Prosgeopax said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
there is no evidence that traditional spiritual concepts are fantasy


Where is the evidence that they are reality?


No evidence. But you can't prove non-existence, so you can't say things like: this doesn't exist, it's fantasy


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4651337 -

But the logical epistemological default for everything is neutrality; that is withholding belief (non-belief) until evidence of a thing's existence is found.

Without this basic principle of epistemology, we would have to grant that every possible thing (and every impossible thing too) exists, then begin the discussion. This is as silly as saying that there are no Spaghetti Monsters on Pluto. There might be, but it's also silly to assume there are.

Better to stand neutral in non-belief of the 'interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm'. Non-belief is different than disbelief, and is the best way to view something unsupported by evidence. So far, there is zero evidence of any 'spiritual realm' existing.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4652132 -

Diploid said:
But the logical epistemological default for everything is neutrality; that is withholding belief (non-belief) until evidence of a thing's existence is found.

Without this basic principle of epistemology, we would have to grant that every possible thing (and every impossible thing too) exists, then begin the discussion. This is as silly as saying that there are no Spaghetti Monsters on Pluto. There might be, but it's also silly to assume there are.

Better to stand neutral in non-belief of the 'interconnections between the physical and the spiritual realm'. Non-belief is different than disbelief, and is the best way to view something unsupported by evidence. So far, there is zero evidence of any 'spiritual realm' existing.


Indeed. But saying spiritual realm is fantasy is actually sliping away from the position of non-belief into the position of disbelief without any evidence.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4652515 -

Well, strictly speaking, saying that 'spiritual realms' are fantasy is epistemologically illogical, but there's formal logic and then there's ordinary language logic.

In the latter, saying that the Plutonian Spaghetti Monsters are fantasy is reasonable; the same goes for 'spiritual realms' especially since there isn't even a definitive definition for the term.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory? [Re: Diploid]
    #4654190 -

Where does all this mention about a Spaghetti Monster come from? I recently read an opinion piece in my local newspaper submitted by a reader about his belief in a Giant Spaghetti Monster who created the world and directs it with his "invisible, noodley appendage". The author argued that his version of creation should be taught equally along side evolution and IDT.

I know that the same argument has been brought up here at the shroomery, but I was wondering if it was a shroomerite that wrote that opinion/letter thingy...


--------------------

http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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