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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Arp]
    #4301033 -

Arp said:
I was more refering to our perception as whole.
We take alot of things for granted.
It's obvious in our dreams but there we can learn to be aware.
Yet we doesnt seem to be able to control the "wake" world as we wish.
With drugs (and also without) we can do that to some extent and even transcendend.

My thoughts on fate and free-will is that they belong to this
"optional" reality (that can be transformed!).
We take it for granted that we have to decide between those two and
that they belong to some kind of "truth".

I don't think we can rely on those two. A way like taking the notion
for granted and let us be "distracted" and a part of the game.

Hope this make sense it's getting late here and im starting to hallucinate :crazy:


  I don't think anyone is sure that fate and free-will don't occur on levels higher than our own, and I don't know if fate on it's own transcends free will.. Mayhaps what we choose to do with free-will has been destined by fate. Maybe both are delusional by-products of human consciousness.
  But, in a social sense of reality free-will is a fleeting ideal that we long for, and as long as we let politicians make silly rules for us to live by, we will have no more free-will than my German Shepard...


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: moog]
    #4301082 -

I think the completely theoretical discussions over an imaginary God only inhibit the potential of the conversation. Asking how God's prediction of our actions affects our free will seems similar to the Medieval theologists asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, because there is no God and there are no angels to discuss.

Why must we include Judeo-Christian mythology in an otherwise serious scientific discussion? Should I start including Egyptian and Roman mythology into my arguments, asking about Zeus and Thoth when talking of my free will?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4301084 -

DF2K said:
Fate:
The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The inevitable events predestined by this force.

Free Will:
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if everything in life is predecieded, then what is the value of choice???



so?

also atheism contradicts christian beliefs, moral absolutism contradicts mora relativism etc. what is your point?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4301110 -

There are at least two very real threats to the idea fate / nonexistence of free will.

1) If you assume there is a God who can see the future and whatnot, your basis for discrediting free will is that he knows what choice you will make. But, assuming something like a multiverse negates that statement, as all possible choices will be seen and perceived. Really, the only things that were not choices would not exist in any of the possible Universes.

2) Outside of a Multverse, the concept of fate requires a linear time scheme where there is a clear future and thus past. As time can not be shown to exist as a quantity and is only shown through perception, I would suggest it proves the possiblity of free will.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4301124 -

DF2K said:
Fate:
The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The inevitable events predestined by this force.

Free Will:
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if everything in life is predecieded, then what is the value of choice???


if that is so, who chose what was 'predecieded'? :P

"Trust your faith, make it happen!"
-Unknown :P


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Disclaimer!?

Edited by Gomp (06/15/05 07:58 PM)

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Gomp]
    #4301149 -

Why is it necessary for someone to choose what will happen?

All you need is a set of laws in the universe, and a random beginning cause possibly from the probability of quantum mechanics, and like the bouncing of a ball or the throwing of a frisbee the objects will follow mathematical equations and causality until they hit the ground and stop.

Except that's our entire universe. :smirk:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4301247 -

Except cause and effect is only a concept. Simultaneity is a falsity- common sense is only useful in common applications. Even Einstein, for all his existence related things, recognized this through special relativity.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: vampirism]
    #4301273 -

Please explain to me on an example how something can work without cause and effect?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4301332 -

Diploid brought up God, ask him. I don't believe in the existence of any deity.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301336 -

cause and effect works only in theory, and is thus only useful in theory. Otherwise it's far too cumbersome.

It's not always possible to tag a cause to an effect. A general example is the Butterfly Effect. This is one distortion of cause and effect which illustrates a.. shortcoming.

A specific, theoretical example ( proper in this case ) is something that induces time travel. Let's say I make an atom travel backwards in time. Point of view is important here- from the past perspective some atoms appeared out of nowhere with no cause.

If I do something, I can look for what is perceived to be an effect. However, in observation, cause and effect are often inseparable and must be treated that way. In order to distinguish them, everything about their relationship must be known. As everything about everything will never be known, there always exists the possiblity that something very strange goes on somewhere in the Universe where cause and effect are not valid. This is not the most likely thing, but it is a possiblity and must remain one.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4302195 -

Please explain to me on an example how something can work without cause and effect?

Positrons in Feynman diagrams routinely travel very briefly backward in time then forward again. This only happens at picosecond scales and at 10^-30 meter size, but it does appear to happen.

At the macro scale, everything on average moves steadily forward in time.

This is analogous to how it's unlikely, but possible, for all the molecules of air in this room to suddenly jump into a corner. It never happens in the macro scale, but imagine a box 10^-20 meters in size with 10 molecules of air in it. Wait a few minutes, and all the molecules WILL end up in a corner briefly (actually, it would have to be two or a multiple, but this detail isn't important).

The smaller the scale, the more likely a temporary reversal of entropy will be observed. This applies to time too; the smaller the scale, the more likely you will observe a particle traveling backward through time.

This violates causality, if only very briefly and at very small scales.

Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/16/05 12:43 AM)

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4302239 -

If it is as you say, then the universe is a creation of randomness and we live in a probabilistic universe rather than a deterministic one. It still doesn't explain how free will arises out of randomness and probability.

Alright, I sobered up a little and have some more input on this.

The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, to the best of our current knowledge, originates at scales below the Planck Scale. Consideration of objects smaller than the Planck Scale is meaningless. All physical calculations below this limit yield meaningless results, like imaginary intervals of time. Square root of -1 seconds, for example.

It's this fundamental limit that renders all String Theories beyond the reach of experimentation, and it's why all String Theories are philosophies instead of science; they cannot be verified or falsified.

I think the seat of consciousness and free will exists in constructs of reality whose components are smaller than the Planck Scale. Some evidence for this has been found in the field of anesthesiology, specifically in the way atomic forces fold proteins in the brain that mediate consciousness.

I can post references if anyone's interested.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: moog]
    #4302260 -

My choice determines God's perception. God's perception doesn't determine my choice.

Then God is not omniscient since his perception is deponent on you. This is a contradiction.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4302267 -

concertive cause and effect (where many inseparable contributing influences are the cause) is not linear - measurable or predictible, and it is common and normal.

stuff is happenning in general that is dependent upon stuff that has happenned already, but you can't isolate the causes and connect them precisely to effects since many are turbulent (chaotic and unique) or acting together (concertive) or acting obliquely & in part.

wave interaction is like this. to describe the exact effect from any exact cause you have to desribe the whole container the whole medium, and all participants in wave propogation and their states.

Still we can study waves and learn a lot from the patterns of their interference.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4303114 -

"Free will" is a cognitive element representing the basic game-theoretical unit of moral responsibility.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with determinism or quantum randomness.
Free will doesn't actually exist in reality, but only in the sense that flowers don't actually exist in reality.


--------------------
Das ist Life

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Kitiem3000]
    #4303151 -

It has nothing whatsoever to do with determinism or quantum randomness.

What would you suggest causes it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Fate contradicts free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4303450 -

When looking at the bigger picture and grander scheme of things, it seems to be fantastically striking that for one to truly believe he or she has free-will is truly laughable. There are oceans upon oceans of constantly changing variables, events and situations not only outside of us, but within of us as well [they go hand-in-hand].

We don't say "I" am growing my fingernails, or "I" am beating my own heart, nor do we say "I" am moving those clouds or "I" am growing that tree... But we say "I" am 'thinking' these thoughts, and may even become emotionally distressed at the arisal of certain thoughts... which, to one who "knows" can appear to be incredibly insane as if one were going angry and depressed because of the arisal of black, dark clouds! Imagine that!
Are the clouds in the sky any less a part of you than the thoughts that float in your mind?
Is the grass on the earth any less a part of your body than the hair on your skin? [There is no actual, physical seperation between the "inner" and the "outer", this is only a conceptual 'line' drawn by the ego.]
Are the voices in your head any more a part of you than the speaker on the television?
When the Oneness of all things strikes you like a freight train, it may become quite clear that the "I" has no real free-will.



Yet, when people realize that their actions and thoughts and doings are always in relation to something else, which in turn are in relation to other things, and so on ad infinitum, they become emotionally defensive and throw stones. -rubs head-


To truly have free will, is to remove the barrier of subjectivity that prevents one from realizing the essential oneness with all things.
You are Nothing; therefore Everything. You are "It"; the whole entire process.

As Alan Watts points out: You only have free will when you stop trying to 'do' doing, or 'be' being, or 'see' seeing, 'think' thinking... in other words, trying to fragment life as perciever and percept.
When this egoic fragmentation derived from mask-attachment [a sickness] becomes lifted, one utterly becomes Life... or more precisely: they realize they are life, not one who "has" a life.



Or, so I've.... learned.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Fate contradicts free will [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4303461 -

Very interesting, much food for thought. Thanks. :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4303619 -

The New Testament has both principles embedded in its theologies. The Methodists stress the free will aspect, the Calvinists (entering into Presbyterianism) focus on the element of predestination. Like other contradictory principles found in other disciplines (e.g., quantum physics seems to have lots of apparent contradictions, particles in 2 places at the same time, quanta as particle and wavicle, etc.), these contradictions are not soluble in howsoever much rational thinking one wants to do. One finds oneself on a pendulum, swinging to momentary certitude in one school, then being equally convinced by the opposing school.

Interestingly enough, a 'transrational' perspective from a heightened consciousness often is able to see both fish in the yin-yang chasing one another simultaneously, so-to-speak. The answer is perceived to be a dynamic, a process that alternates between extremes, not a static '0' or '1.'

For years I was one-sidedly deterministic (as expressed in the book BE HERE NOW). When I went to a Methodist seminary, I picked up the influence of free will, particularly with regard to moral behavior. Now, in the study of Kabbalism, there is a prevalent idea that GOD 'depends upon' human free will for the 'repair' of a damaged spiritual world ['Tikkun' - restoration] - yet another level of free will with enhanced responsibility.

Insofar as GOD created, [S]He is said to have 'withdrawn' omnidirectionally to form a sort of 'vacuole' in the Infinite density of BEING. The vacuole is our expanding universe. The curvature at the boundary cannot be pierced because nothing lies beyond it save GOD's Infinite Being which is eternally exclusive of creation. Only the Divine Immanence suffuses space-time, like the residual background radiation from the Big Bang. Just as creation is able to exist through the 'withdrawal' of Infinite BEING, free and independent wills are given existence, yet only relatively free within the laws of the psychophysical universe. So, while GOD's Omnipresence (Immanence) is available, there must be a withdrawal of GOD's Omnipotence, if we are allowed to make choices even contrary to our good or to GOD's Will. Perhaps there is also a withdrawal of GOD's Omniscience as well ([S]He does NOT know everything that is to occur), and so like the Creator, we can engender true novelty ourselves. In our creativity alone perhaps lies our truly free will.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4303794 -

"Then God is not omniscient since his perception is deponent on you. This is a contradiction."

You're right, when speaking of one linear timeline. But...suppose there are infinite timelines for every possibility that could ever occur. Then you could have a choice, and an omniscient being would be aware of all choices and possibilities. The paradox is no longer there because you can choose which timeline while omniscience provides knowledge of all timelines. So for free will to exist, there must be infinite timelines for all possibilities (which is what I believe anyway).

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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