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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300528 -

But the choice is still there. Just as I make a choice to reply or not reply to this topic here. No one is controlling my actions. If there's a deity that knew I was going to post this, it didn't in any way affect my decision to.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: moog]
    #4300548 -

Maybe it used it's double secret powers to make you decide to post. :whack:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Swami]
    #4300580 -

Swami said:
Yeah, but which fork takes the traveller to the cannibalistic tribe?


That depends on whether the guide is a truthteller or a liar...

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4300585 -

It still doesn't explain how free will arises out of randomness and probability.

Hmm... you're right.

So, you're saying that free will is an illusion, and although the universe is probabilistic instead of deterministic, it doesn't mean there is free will.

Maybe.

My subjective experience is that somehow by a mechanism I cannot explain, I have free will.

I guess this still leaves the issue unresolved.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: moog]
    #4300600 -

Just as I make a choice to reply or not reply to this topic here.

If God knows ahead of time that you will reply, is it within the realm of the possible for you to not reply?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300624 -

Diploid said:
It still doesn't explain how free will arises out of randomness and probability.

Hmm... you're right.

So, you're saying that free will is an illusion, and although the universe is probabilistic instead of deterministic, it doesn't mean there is free will.

Maybe.

My subjective experience is that somehow by a mechanism I cannot explain, I have free will.

I guess this still leaves the issue unresolved.


:lol: You were planning on resolving this issue?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300626 -

My subjective experience is that somehow by a mechanism I cannot explain, I have free will.

Is the dipster ready to take the Swami Free-Will Challenge?

*Swami heats up a red-hot poker*

If you flinch or pull away, you have no free-will. V-e-r-y simple. Case closed.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Icelander]
    #4300633 -

You were planning on resolving this issue?

I can resolve all issues when I'm stoned. It's when I get sober again that they unresolve.  :stoned:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Swami]
    #4300634 -

Swami Free-Will Challenge?

Wait! I thought we were talking about the whale. Free Willi! No?

[pouts and reloads the bong] :bong2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300657 -

Diploid said:
You were planning on resolving this issue?

I can resolve all issues when I'm stoned. It's when I get sober again that they unresolve.  :stoned:


And they say, "Just say no to drugs." Gawd Man, if we did that there would be no progress.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300659 -

free will is born out of consciousness

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300677 -

And what is consciousness? If you concede that people in comas or persistent vegetative states lose consciousness, then that would mean consciousness is located in the neural pathways of our brains. And on a macroscopic scale, those neural pathways are just following causality and the laws of the universe, without some separate factor creating free will. Free will is just an accumulation of the mental processes that were determined by natural selection, but truely it is an illusion as all actions are determined by the laws of the universe and prior circumstances.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4300702 -

so you beileve in the concept of fate, and that free will is just an illusion?

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300734 -

Free will & fate is just a construction of our intellectualizations.

That's what I think & why should it matter?


--------------------

quest for a fully automatized climate

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Arp]
    #4300750 -

it matters because i want to better understand the world in wich i live

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300772 -

I don't think you can grasp the world with words.
Associations with free will & fate are constructed upon words
were we get an escense of something. But I don't think its the real thing. Maybe a pattern? :tongue:

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Arp]
    #4300885 -

A thought-pattern with polarities. Some sort of mind-control? :crazy:

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300914 -

"If God knows ahead of time that you will reply, is it within the realm of the possible for you to not reply? "

Of course not, but you're implying that because God knows that, he has made the choice for me. My choice determines God's perception. God's perception doesn't determine my choice.

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Arp]
    #4300915 -

Arp said:
I don't think you can grasp the world with words.
Associations with free will & fate are constructed upon words
were we get an essence of something. But I don't think its the real thing. Maybe a pattern? :tongue:



  I wouldn't go so far as to say the idea of free-will is purely linguistic... Language is just the only method we have to express what we feel is 'free-will'. Free-will seems to be some sort of elusive ideal. In life we are weighed down with responsibilities for loved ones, and our own personal freedom/safety. Due to the meddling of a repressive government. Our will is only as free as our bravery is strong - enough to deal with the results of trying to be a free person.. In the state I live in, the mandatory minimum for possession w/intent of 6 oz psilocybin is 6 years in prison..

  So, technically we have free will, whether we have the balls to exercise it is another conundrum entirely.. This also entails the question, of how free our will really is, if society can flex it's muscles, and frighten us out of exercising it.


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason

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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Kalix]
    #4301010 -

I was more refering to our perception as whole.
We take alot of things for granted.
It's obvious in our dreams but there we can learn to be aware.
Yet we doesnt seem to be able to control the "wake" world as we wish.
With drugs (and also without) we can do that to some extent and even transcendend.

My thoughts on fate and free-will is that they belong to this
"optional" reality (that can be transformed!).
We take it for granted that we have to decide between those two and
that they belong to some kind of "truth".

I don't think we can rely on those two. A way like taking the notion
for granted and let us be "distracted" and a part of the game.

Hope this make sense it's getting late here and im starting to hallucinate :crazy:


--------------------

quest for a fully automatized climate

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