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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Fate = Determinism?
    #1518890 - 05/04/03 04:49 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm just wondering how many people think that fate is equivalent with determinism.

Fate and Free Will are often paired... if this is the case, then "hard" determinism is thought to be false.
From here, we have either compatibilism (aka "soft" determinism) or the rejection of a causal definition of fate.
I like the latter.
For me, fate refers to tendencies, probabilities, and rough patterns. I figure that people who steal all the time and are constantly thinking of new ways to rip other people or businesses off will eventually get arrested and spend some time in jail. Likewise, habitual hard drug users tend to never achieve their potential and often overdose. In the same manner, mouthy people tend to say the wrong thing to the wrong people and end up getting slapped/punched/kicked around every so often.

But I want to know what the rest of you think.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1518898 - 05/04/03 05:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

fuck determinism.
the world you live in is a result of the decisions you make. not the other way around.

as for fate, it sounds suspiciously like determinism so fuck that too.




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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1518901 - 05/04/03 05:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I don't really make a distinction between the two. In my mind, free will and determinism are the same thing. Even if everything were pre-determined it would have ZERO impact on our lives.


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1518905 - 05/04/03 05:10 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Fate = DNA


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Adamist]
    #1518910 - 05/04/03 05:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

DNA is not fate, it doesn't determine everything that happens. DNA doesn't explain why the moon orbits the earth.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: bert]
    #1518921 - 05/04/03 05:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

your DNA can predict your success in life to some extent... there are always factors that affect you life, but taken together, do they all push you along a predetermined path?

I know that some would like to think so... heck it's better than blaming your own decisions for your status in life.



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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: bert]
    #1518924 - 05/04/03 05:26 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DNA is not fate, it doesn't determine everything that happens. DNA doesn't explain why the moon orbits the earth.



How do you know there isn't a great 'cosmic DNA'? As below so above, yo.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Adamist]
    #1518926 - 05/04/03 05:28 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

lol, cosmic DNA. ok, let's hear the Cosmic DNA Theory of determinism.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: bert]
    #1518928 - 05/04/03 05:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, well there's this cosmic serpent who is all life as we know it, as a whole. This serpent permeates itself through our entire Reality, to the smallest details. It destroys and creates itself constantly, like night and day, it keeps shifting to sustain itself. Swallowing itself. So like, we are in this universal digestive tract called Time, being swallowed by this serpent, right, some call it Lucifer, some call it Quetzacoatl, some call it Tao... It doesn't matter what you call it, it is nameless.. Oh yeah, and one more thing... It's a great dancer. I'm always dancing with It... Sometimes we talk, sometimes we have sex. It's the most wonderous shade of crimson. Oh yeah, and It resides in each and every one of our bodies. Not just humans, not just animals, but ALL life as we know it and don't know it. Oi?


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Edited by Adamist (05/04/03 05:39 AM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: bert]
    #1518942 - 05/04/03 06:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

A picture is worth a post-full of words...







All human senses, including hearing, touch, taste, vision and pain receptors, have not only spiral physiology, but also response curves that are logarithmic (having a fibonacci structure). Our universe is shaped in a spiral, as is DNA, as is pine-cones and sunflowers and the shape our hair grows in and Mr. Swirley Ice Cream(tm) and let's not forget the ole kundalini force.. Maybe... just maybe... OLE LUCY's TRYIN TO TELL US SOMETHIn>!>!>! is that you tetragrammaton? ? ?? ??? ????? ????????

...Transmission terminated.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Adamist]
    #1518952 - 05/04/03 06:31 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, there are patterns in the universe but you know what? nothing actually follows those patterns exactly. Those galaxies, those shells... they are imperfect. You will never find a perfect circle in the universe. You know of Plato's "plane of forms" don't you? well, if we lived in that plane, yes maybe everything would be pre-determined and there would be no choice but to follow those perfect lines... but we live in the real world - an imperfect dirty fractal universe, it's perfectly imperfect, perfectly chaotic, and no one knows what the next iteration will bring, the calculation would never end because there are literally an infinite number of variables... an infinitely long strand of your "cosmic DNA". The future isn't written because even the present can't be known - it is dynamic. We can never nail down the precise position of anything in the present, much less the future.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
Stranger

Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1518956 - 05/04/03 06:40 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe everything apears to be chaotic from your limited POV.
As for those spirals apearing everywhere from the ear to the galaxy etc
well im sure you could find lots of nateral squares and circles if you thought about it.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1518961 - 05/04/03 06:54 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sure you'll find lots and lots of circles if you look... but none of them will be perfect circles. A "circle" is an abstraction. In the real world no such thing exists.



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Offlinequemo
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Registered: 12/19/02
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1519109 - 05/04/03 11:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fuck determinism.
the world you live in is a result of the decisions you make. not the other way around.




i really hoped after last discussion, whatever your position is in this matter, you would've been able to make a more profound statement than this. You don't, and that's too bad :frown:


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Anonymous

Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: quemo]
    #1519180 - 05/04/03 12:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i believe in determinism, on the basis of scientific reason. tell me how you can make a decision in your head, when all of the neurons follow a set mathematical pattern...a signal hits a neuron, the electronic gradient turns positive and it fires to the next, where is "free will" during this process?


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1519438 - 05/04/03 02:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

sole worthy, he's saying there's no such thing as a 'perfect' circle. There is no such thing as perfect geometry in the universe no matter how many shells are posted up.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1519913 - 05/04/03 07:05 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

infidelgod: but we live in the real world - an imperfect dirty fractal universe, it's perfectly imperfect, perfectly chaotic, and no one knows what the next iteration will bring, the calculation would never end because there are literally an infinite number of variables...

True.  Glad to see someone else using my "dirty fractal" term... it's quite handy. :wink:

The future isn't written because even the present can't be known - it is dynamic. We can never nail down the precise position of anything in the present, much less the future.

Concise... I like. 


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1520143 - 05/04/03 08:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

its a trick. i dont know what the term is called. but the most straight line is made to look curved right? so i think all circles are simply not circle at all but wavelengths. take a look at a double helix. if you were to look down at it(saying there was a double helix model and looking straight down)at it from a 2 d persective it would slightly resemble a circle. but of course all it is, is two curving lines that wrap around eachother. how could anything in our universe be a perfect circle when the elements around it dont act upon the rules of balance? for instance there isnt a complete set of galaxies, or stars in galaxies of the same way in the correct positions to resemble a perfect circle. but thats not the point its the principle. you wouldnt want it to be that way anyway.

to further this i will take humans. the pattern to arrange us has to be perfect or else either a deformity or just a lack of the cells to divide. that is where i think dna comes into play, its a perfect example of what i think adamist is talking about "as above so below". but for the sake of this discussion it operated very nicely. as far as the universe is concerned its a divine mix. chaos for difference, and order for stability and the ability for these systems to exist in the first place.

the first time i took shrooms, i came up with this and i thought it was the perfect question to ask for just about anything to are old problems. i dont know why but at the time it made sense but now im still trying to figure it out...

Is the line definate or implied?

this would account for a lot on persepctive. you dont see definate lines, they are implied. your perception on the other hand is so much closer to definate.

and what i think adamist is trying to express, is how this reality is made present. using this serpent figure as a medium for understanding the present.

which would also qualify
Quote:

infidelgod: but we live in the real world - an imperfect dirty fractal universe, it's perfectly imperfect, perfectly chaotic, and no one knows what the next iteration will bring, the calculation would never end because there are literally an infinite number of variables...





Quote:

The future isn't written because even the present can't be known - it is dynamic. We can never nail down the precise position of anything in the present, much less the future.





this is why i have a hard time trying to write anything. cause i think in the present, and so i can never nail down a damn position. maybe thats what add is, or maybe not and i still just have add.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1520255 - 05/04/03 09:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

yeah it is a handy term... but some people have a problem with the concept... they prefer to see a universe of clockwork perfection and grand spirals...

.sigh...




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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Fate = Determinism? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1520266 - 05/04/03 09:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You don't see perfection?


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